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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Foz405 on Sunday 20 March 11 09:16 GMT (UK)
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I'm hoping someone may be able to help. I've exhausted all the internet sources I can find in looking for my ancestor who at the 1851 census was a grocer in Ardrishaig, having travelled to Dundee to marry Elizabeth Shand, then returning to give birth to Helen, (age 3 at the census).
Unfortunately, either the births were not registered, or more likely, they have been lost.
I would dearly like to find his parents. I have been given unconfirmed information that his parents were Archibald Bell & Ann McLachlan married 1788, but this is patently incorrect as they were never married (to each other) according to ScotlandsPeople.
Any ideas, please ?
Grahame
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Hi Grahame
Did Daniel Bell live past 1855 and die in Scotland? If so, his death cert should include his parents names which would let you confirm his family details.
I his parents were Archibald Bell & Ann McLachlan married 1788, but this is patently incorrect as they were never married (to each other) according to ScotlandsPeople.
Just like you are having problems finding the birth of young Helen born c.1848, it may be that there are similar problems finding potential parents' marriage. Just because you cannot find a marriage (which sadly is quite common), I wouldn't assume that they are not the right parents or that they didn't marry. But you do need to confirm through other sources such as Daniel's death cert.
Monica
Added: The family went off to Australia? Possible death for Daniel Bell in Victoria in 1895? Likely arrival for the Bell family in Aug. 1852 at Victoria, on the 'Flora Mcdonald', one additional son, Daniel b. 1852.
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There are these births showing on IGI to an Archibald Bell and Ann McLachlan:
1. DUGALD BELL chr. 10 MAY 1819 Kilmartin, Argyll (submitted entry)
2. DONALD BELL b. 29 MAR 1821 Glassary, Argyll *
3. MARGARET BELL b.17 JUN 1825 Kilchrenan And Dalavich, Argyll
4. JOHN BELL b. 4 APR 1828 Kilchrenan And Dalavich, Argyll
* Donald and Daniel are first name variants, see www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=daniel It could be that Daniel was registered as Donald. There are lots of first name variants in use in Scotland at that time.
Unlikely I would think that the 1788 marriage that has been found for an Archibald Bell and Ann McLachlan is the correct one. Likely there was a couple with these names born/married later given the birth years of children above for a couple with these names.
Monica
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There is another Glassary birth showing on IGI:
Donald BELL b. Sept 1821 in Glassary, Argyll
Parents: James BELL and Jenate MITCHELL
This might be a better fit given the name of Daniel and Elizabeth's second born daughter:
Jessie Ann BELL b. 24 Oct. 1849/ chr. 12 Dec. 1849 in South Knapdale, Argyll
Jessie and Janet are also common first name variants....
Monica
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Thank you Monica. The idea of Donald seems very likely. I'll look at this further.
I haven't seen Daniel Bell's death certificate 1895/13803, but yes, he did die in 1895.
As an aside, I believe Helen's name was Helen Smith Bell (died on the Flora McDonald on the way to Portland). His son was called John Smith Bell, and JSBs grandson (my father) was similarly called John Smith Bell.
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Hi Graham
One possibility may be to look at the image of Jessie Ann's christening in 1849 in South Knapdale. You sometimes get lucky and find family members acting as sponsors.
Hard to guess where the Smith name comes in at this stage. Perhaps Elizabeth Shand's mother's name?
Monica
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There are these births showing on IGI to an Archibald Bell and Ann McLachlan:
1. DUGALD BELL chr. 10 MAY 1819 Kilmartin, Argyll (submitted entry)
2. DONALD BELL b. 29 MAR 1821 Glassary, Argyll *
3. MARGARET BELL b.17 JUN 1825 Kilchrenan And Dalavich, Argyll
4. JOHN BELL b. 4 APR 1828 Kilchrenan And Dalavich, Argyll
* Donald and Daniel are first name variants, see www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=daniel It could be that Daniel was registered as Donald. There are lots of first name variants in use in Scotland at that time.
Unlikely I would think that the 1788 marriage that has been found for an Archibald Bell and Ann McLachlan is the correct one. Likely there was a couple with these names born/married later given the birth years of children above for a couple with these names.
Monica
Thanks again. Given that we have a copy of the contents of an old diary from Daniel's grand-daughter mentioning Archibald and Ann as the parents, I would say this is quite likely. Too, Dugald is supposed to be the father, which fits given the children.
Thank you very much.
PS, I've researched the Shands as far as possible (a lot of Alexanders), and no Smith there. Maybe it was popular at the time in the early 19th century, much the same as Australia was a popular girl's middle name around federation in OZ.
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In Scotland, it was common to use surnames as middle names for children, particularly from the maternal side. First named daughters often called after their maternal grandmother (as per Scottish naming pattern). Not yet seeing anything though from the names of Daniel and Elizabeth's children's names that helps though...
Monica
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Hi Graham
Did you make any further progress on Daniel/Donald Bell after the message interchange with Monica?
I've just come across your work as I'm doing some investigations for my daughter-in-law's tree. I'm now pretty sure that my daughter in law is descended from the Jessie Ann Bell line, but I will need to order a couple of certificates to be certain of the connection. I saw your GGrandfather, John Smith Bell, as one of the children born around Portland to Daniel and Elizabeth.
Is this is the Daniel Bell in the 1856 Vic electoral roll for Normanby? ... it lists Daniel Bell as a sawyer, of Sevenmile bridge, Bolwarra - I see from Google Maps that Bolwarra is part to Portland, Vic.
Regards
Ivan King, of Kiama Downs, NSW
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Is this is the Daniel Bell in the 1856 Vic electoral roll for Normanby? ... it lists Daniel Bell as a sawyer, of Sevenmile bridge, Bolwarra - I see from Google Maps that Bolwarra is part to Portland, Vic.
Regards
Ivan King, of Kiama Downs, NSW
Well, it is probable that this is the Daniel Bell in the 1856 electoral roll for Normanby. I do know that Daniel (Donald as we now know) was discharged from the Vic Mounted Police in March 1854 (as gazetted in Melb). Rumour has it that he injured himself after falling from a horse.
As John Smith Bell's birth was registered in the district of Normanby when he was a mounted policeman it is likely that these are one and the same. If you have any further information on what happened to the Bells from 1856, especially the next thirty years, I'd be grateful. The next piece of information I have is when John Smith married Annie Jane McVey in Sydney (710/1887).
Daniel died in 1893 in St Kilda [reg 1893/3916]. As the parents are listed as unknown, he probably outlived his wife, Elizabeth and was estranged from the children.
regards
Grahame
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I read the posts with great interest. My great-great-great grandparents are Daniel Bell and Elizabeth Shand, and I think that I can help. Daniel spent the last 30 years of his life in the Kew Asylum where he died. Some of his family were embarrassed, and one or two of his daughters recorded him as dead on their marriage certificates when indeed he was alive and in the asylum. His wife Elizabeth and daughter Jessie Annie kept visiting him though. Daniel died there in 1895, and Elizabeth two years later. Daniel's family and friends tried to keep him out of the asylum, but it just didn't work. On one occasion at home, Daniel tried to kill himself in the middle of the night, but Alexander Barclay from the Barclay Mill where he was employed, was staying at the house to help look after him, and saved his life by grabbing the barrel of the gun which discharged into Alexander's hand. Alexander Barclay married Daniel's daughter Jessie Annie Bell two years later, and they became my great-great grandparents.
Please let me know how I can help. I think I have plenty more to tell. I am also very interested to know what you have found out about the Shand family. I look forward to hearing from all my newly found relatives!
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Post 2
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Post 3 - now please send me a PM as I am happy to start emailing if you want.
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Ivan, thanks. After contacting Hazz I have managed to get a great deal of material about the Bell family, and have traced the line back to Archibald Bell & Katharine Black b. circa 1740. They came from Kilmodan Parish, Argyll.
If anyone has any more details of the Bells of Argyll and Kilmichael, Kilchrenan Parishes I'd be most grateful. Monica was a great help.
Grahame (Sept 2014)
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Grahame, you are back :) Hope all well ;)
Monica
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Thanks, Monica
Yes, all's well (now) after coronary by-pass surgery in April and a further health scare last month (which was a false alarm). I'm off to Scotland next year in May on the holiday that has been rescheduled from May this year. I'll be driving around the old Bell stamping grounds of Kilmichael, Kilmartin and through Argyll for a couple of weeks. The family history book has come back from the printer, and I'm now binding a limited number of copies. It will bear an ISBN and have the usual legal deposit, but I can see this being a very limited edition as many of the relatives have no interest whatsoever. C'est le vie.
I was hoping to find out a little more on the Bells of Argyll, and the Smiths of Fordoun, but if I do, it will for another edition or supplement.
Hope you've been well.
Grahame
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Genealogy is always a labour of love ::)
Really good to hear that you feel better and all health stuff behind you :)
Monica