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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Boardies on Saturday 19 March 11 22:49 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am looking for the siblings and ancestors of Philip BROWN (a unique name I know)!!! I have tracked him down in the 1881 census but so far have been unable to find him from an earlier period.
Philip and his family eventually moved to Australia, and that is where he passed away, but I am interested in knowing where he came from.
I would LOVE some assistance.
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1881 Census
9 Newton Street
St George
Edinburgh
Midlothian
Scotland
Philip BROWN, 42, Joiner, born Earlsferry, Fifeshire
Mary, wife, 42, born Earlsferry, Fifeshire
James, son, 20, Joiner, born Edinburgh, Midlothian
Betsy, daughter, 15, Scholar, born Edinburgh, Midlothian
Philip, son, 13, Scholar, born Edinburgh, Midlothian
Mary J., daughter, 5, born Edinburgh, Midlothian
Elizabeth E., daughter, 11 months, born Edinburgh, Midlothian
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Thanks, Boardies from Australia
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
but I am interested in knowing where he came from
I suspect you mean his parentage etc as you already have his birthplace
As he married after 1855 - have you checked his marriage certificate as it will give details of his parents including his mothers maiden name
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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If you have access to the censuses - he is on the 1841 census for Kilconquhar Fife b 1838
Earlsferry Main St - all b Fife
John Brown 35 cotton hand loom weaver
Jean 30
John 10
Elizabeth 8
Philip 3
Jean 1
Kilconquhar ED 1A Page 7 Line 550
There is a submitted entry birth and christening entry on the IGI which means somebody else is researching the same family
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
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Thank you Carole.
I haven't seen that site before (add it to my list of sites now), and I found the records you were referring to.
Now this may sound like a "dumb" question, so please excuse me if it is a dumb question - but how do you know the record you found in the 1841 census is for the same "Philip Brown" that I found in the 1881 census given the name is so very, very common.
Boardies
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Hi
It's not a dumb question.
He was actually the only Philip Brown in Fife. The 1881 shows his birthplace as Earlsferry and he was living in Earlsferry in 1841
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Hi Carole,
In relation to the question of the marriage of Philip and Mary, and looking for his parents that way, this is the information that had been given to me:
Mary Cornfoot, married Phillip Brown 12th November 1858, at Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland.......
Boardies
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The 1851 for Kilconquhar shows 3 more siblings born after 1841
James 7 David 5 and John 1
All family are shown as b Earlsferry
Kilconquhar ED 6 Page 8 Line 8
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Extracted record on the IGI
PHILIP BROWN Spouse: MARY CORNFOOT Family
Marriage: 12 NOV 1858 Kilconquhar, Fife
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I am looking for the siblings and ancestors of Philip BROWN (a unique name I know)!!! I have tracked him down in the 1881 census but so far have been unable to find him from an earlier period.
Philip and his family eventually moved to Australia, and that is where he passed away, but I am interested in knowing where he came from.
Hi Boardies this is an Inscription from Kilconquhar Cemetery
could this be yours?
Erected by the Family in Remembrance John BROWN their Father who died at Elie June 1889
and Jane Brown his mother who died at Elie 24.5.1875 age 74?
Also John their brother drowned at sea
And Thomas their Brother died at Melbourne age 45
Also William & Philip their brothers died in Australia
Also Jane their sister died at Elie 13.6.1918 age 78
Norrie G
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Hi Carole,
I've had a suggestion previously that there may have been a sibling, Thomas. Is he in the 1851 census? He would have been born before Philip (about 3 yrs earlier). I know he isn't on the 1841 census but wondered if he was on the 1851?????
Boardies
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Oh my goodness!!!! :D
How on earth did you find that?
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Hi Boardies
its all part of the service you get when you post
on Fife Roots Web, not bad all you answers in 2 hours.
Norrie G
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Okay - agreed - the service is fabulous. ;D ;D ;D
From 1841 we had:
John (F) age 35 b. 1805/06
Jean (M) age 30 b. 1810/11
John age 10 b. 1830/31
Elizabeth age 8 b. 1832/33
Philip age 3 b. 1837/38
Jean age 1 b. 1839/1840
From 1851 we can add
James
David
John
Then the grave inscription we have:
John (d. 1889)
Jane (d. 1875, age 74) which implies b. 1800/1801
John (drowned at sea)
Thomas (died Melbourne) age 45
William and Philip (died in Australia)
Jane (d. 1918, age 78) which implies b. 1839/1840
Is it the same family from the 1841 and 1851 census previously found? There is some commonality, but not everything matches up. Jean/Jane?
The Philip in Australia is VERY interesting, but I didn't know about a William in Australia, and as I mentioned in an earlier post perhaps a Thomas.
Boardies
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Hi
The names Jean and Jane are interchangeable in Scotland. Daughter Jean aged 1 in 1841 will be the Jane on the inscription.
Norrie has a question mark against Jane's age of 74 - could it read 72?
You have to allow for some slight variation in ages depending on the month in which they were born relating to the event (ie) census or death
Jean was 1yr in 1841 so if born - say - November 1839 - she would be 1yr in November 1840 and therefore still aged 1yr when the census was taken in June 1841
Here is another submitted IGI entry
THOMAS BROWN Birth: 24 SEP 1835 Christening: 22 NOV 1835 Kilconquhar, Fife Father: JOHN BROWN Mother: JEAN BROWN
Thomas is not elsewhere in Fife in 1841 but re-appears with the family in the full 1851 shown below
Ages from 15yrs upwards were rounded down to the nearest 5yrs in 1841
1851
John Brown 45
Jean 44
Elizabeth 19
Thomas 15
Philip 12
Jean 10
James 7
David 5
John 1
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Hi Boardies. I am interested in anything to do with the East Neuk of Fife, so I thought I would try and help with your query.
Those old headstones with faded inscriptions can be hard to read. John BROWN, father of Philip, died not in 1889, but in 1883, and if you want to look up his death-certificate, it's not in the parish of Elie, but in Earlsferry, parish of Kilconquhar. Although Elie and Earlsferry are physically joined up and to all intents and purposes one town, historically they are in different parishes.
Similarly, his wife Jane BROWN died, not in 1875, but in 1879.
They lived in Liberty Place, Earlsferry, par. of Kilconquhar, and can be seen there in the 1871 census. John was then a weaver, but his death-certificate gives him as "Seaman (Merchant Service)", and when his wife died in 1873 she was described as married to John BROWN, Seaman (Merchant Service).
Jane died on May 24th 1879, and her death was registered by her son Philip BROWN, of 112 West Fountainbridge, Edinburgh. Fountainbridge is just to the west of the city centre, and was the birthplace some years later of Sean "James Bond" Connery! I lived not far away myself at one time.
Philip gave his mother's parents as William BROWN, farm-servant, and Betsy ADAMSON.
John BROWN died on June 8th 1883, and his death was registered by his daughter Jane BROWN, "present", who gave his parents as William BROWN, fisherman, and Helen SCOTT.
Harry
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Correction to my 4th paragraph above, where I mistakenly say that Jane BROWN died in 1873. Typo for 1879.
Harry
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This is probably also worth mentioning.
In 1871 John and Jean Brown had neighbours on either side called SUNTER. Christopher SUNTER(25) on one side and James SUNTER(30) on their other side were both stonemasons.
John and Jean's son Philip Brown married Mary Cornfoot, and she was born in 1839 in Kilconquhar parish (prob. Earlsferry, I haven't checked) to James Cornfoot and Elizabeth SUNTER.
Harry
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:D :D I wish to THANK Carole, Norrie and Harry for your excellent work.
I believe between you, you have confirmed the family of Philip Brown, and found parents, siblings and grandparents.
Thank you so much.
I have to now try and find William in Australia somewhere and try and find out what happened to Philip's other siblings who aren't on that headstone. If you can help with any of this then please "jump in".
8)
Boardies.
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Have you ever investigated your CORNFOOT ancestry? Anyone who researches East Fife local history sooner or later comes across the story of the Pittenweem Witches. As late as the early 1700s, the fishing population of the East Neuk still believed in witches, and the murder of some poor women in Pittenweem provoked a national outcry. One of them was called Janet CORNFOOT. She may have had no connection with the CORNFOOT family of Earlsferry, but the two villages are only a few miles apart.
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/PittenweemWitchTrials.htm
An anonymous Gentleman in Edinburgh wrote to the newspapers about this scandal at the time, and the town clerk of Pittenweem wrote back to say that he didn't know what he was talking about, and the women in question had bad reputations. Their slanging-match was eventually printed as a pamphlet, and I've seen a copy in the National Library of Scotland.
Harry
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Philip gave his mother's parents as William BROWN, farm-servant, and Betsy ADAMSON.
John BROWN died on June 8th 1883, and his death was registered by his daughter Jane BROWN, "present", who gave his parents as William BROWN, fisherman, and Helen SCOTT.
Hi Boardies I think we should go with the parents that Jane Brown gave, its said that women know best.
Father: William Brown, Mother: Helen Scott
these are their Children
5. JOHN BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 29 SEP 1804 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland
6. ANNE BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 11 AUG 1808 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland
7. ROBERT BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 25 APR 1793 Christening: 05 MAY 1793 Kilconquhar
11. WILLIAM BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 26 SEP 1791 Christening: 14 OCT 1791 Kilconquhar
15. PHILIP BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 27 MAR 1812 Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland
16. JAMES BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 28 DEC 1803 Christening: 08 JAN 1804 Kilconquhar
20. MARY BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 08 MAR 1800 Christening: 16 APR 1800 Kilconquhar
24. HELEN BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 16 AUG 1797 Christening: 30 AUG 1797 Kilconquhar
NorrieG
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Hi there, :)
A couple of things:
1) William, Thomas and Philip and their Australian connection.
William - born on 3/12/1827 at Kilconquhar. Funny how he isn't in the census for 1841 or 1851 and yet he is on that gravestone. Haven't found him in Australia yet.
Thomas - born on 22/11/1835 at Kilconquhar. We have him in the 1851 census, but I know he was married in Victoria, Australia in 1858, so he travelled to Australia sometime between 1851 and 1858. He died in Melbourne, Australia on 22/10/1880.
Philip - born 5/11/1838 at Kilconquhar. We know that he registered his mother Jane's death in 1879 (probably because both William and Thomas were in Australia), in 1881 living in Edinburgh, and he travelled to Australia in 1883 (the year of his father's death, which might explain why Jane registered her father's death as the 3 boys had travelled to Australia). Philip died in Perth, Western Australia on 22/3/1919 (the same year as Jane's death).
Is their a web site that lists Scottish emigrants to Australia in the 1800's?
2) Have you ever investigated your CORNFOOT ancestry?
Not yet. Interesting story about the witches. What I do have is Mary CORNFOOT born 10/7/1839 at Williamsburgh, Fifeshire with possible siblings Elizabeth, James and Isabella. Parents were James CORNFOOT (b. 13/5/1796) and Elizabeth SUNTER (b. abt 1800) and married on 1/12/1820, and this matches with the post #16 relating to the SUNTER's. I have James CORNFOOT's parents as William CORNFOOT and Elizabeth BROWN.
3) Philip gave his mother's parents as William BROWN, farm-servant, and Betsy ADAMSON.
John BROWN died on June 8th 1883, and his death was registered by his daughter Jane BROWN, "present", who gave his parents as William BROWN, fisherman, and Helen SCOTT.
Hi Boardies I think we should go with the parents that Jane Brown gave, its said that women know best.
Isn't the information:
John BROWN's parents were William BROWN and Helen SCOTT (as supplied by Jane when her father died), and
Jane BROWN's parents were William BROWN and Betsy (Elizabeth?) ADAMSON (as supplied by Philip when his mother died).
Can't they both be correct?
Boardies
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1851
John Brown 45
Jean 44
Elizabeth 19
Thomas 15
Philip 12
Jean 10
James 7
David 5
John 1
Hi there,
Is there any other information readily available about the rest of John and Jane's children?
Elizabeth b. 1831, and is in the 1841 and 1851 census
Helen b. 1833 and is not in either the 1841 or 1851 census (died perhaps?)
James b. 1842 and is in the 1851 census
David b. 1846 and is in the 1851 census
John b. 1850 and is in the 1851 census
Isabella b. 1852
You would think that at least 1 of them must have been alive in 1919 to put William, Philip and Jane's names on that headstone.
Boardies
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Philip gave his mother's parents as William BROWN, farm-servant, and Betsy ADAMSON.
John BROWN died on June 8th 1883, and his death was registered by his daughter Jane BROWN, "present", who gave his parents as William BROWN, fisherman, and Helen SCOTT.
Hi Boardies I think we should go with the parents that Jane Brown gave, its said that women know best.
Don't confuse John Brown's father William Brown, fisherman, with his wife Jean's father William Brown, farm labourer.
Harry
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"...... if you want to look up his death-certificate, it's not in the parish of Elie, but in Earlsferry, parish of Kilconquhar. Although Elie and Earlsferry are physically joined up and to all intents and purposes one town, historically they are in different parishes.
......but his death-certificate gives him as "Seaman (Merchant Service)", and when his wife died in 1873 she was described as married to John BROWN, Seaman (Merchant Service).
Jane died on May 24th 1879, and her death was registered by her son Philip BROWN
John BROWN died on June 8th 1883, and his death was registered by his daughter Jane BROWN, "present", who gave his parents as William BROWN, fisherman, and Helen SCOTT.
Harry
Hello Everyone, :)
May I ask - where are you looking up death certificate information? Is it freely available online somewhere?
Boardies
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www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Harry