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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: ceedee on Saturday 12 March 11 14:30 GMT (UK)

Title: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Saturday 12 March 11 14:30 GMT (UK)
Hi there, I am from Northern Ireland, this photo is part of my grandfathers collection, unfortunately he has passed away and didn't write on his photos.  There is a possibility that this is James Martin he was born in 1874 and does not appear on the 1901 census, although I know he got married in 1907 and is on the 1911 census. Is it possible that this is a Boer War picture?  Any help would be much appreciated. I wasn't sure if they still rode horses in WW1.  There is a Pte J Martin 3645 of the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons appearing on the medal role for the Queens South Africa Medal but I can't find any other records to verify if this is the same man.
thanks in anticipation
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 12 March 11 17:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Christine

3645 Private James Martin also fought in WW1 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=4139714&queryType=1&resultcount=1

As they used the same number during WW1 it suggests he only had one set of records, and if you cannot find it on Ancestry you have to assume it was destroyed during WW2 bombing. But you should check Findmypast for pre-1914 just is case there was an earlier set.

Ken
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Saturday 12 March 11 20:19 GMT (UK)
Ken
Thanks for that, I must have a look didn't think about ww1. still haven't figured out how to look for soldier number on ancestry, very new to looking for the records in general
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 12 March 11 23:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Christine

The National Archive's index for WW1 medals is far superior to Ancestry's. I always find people on the former and then use http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1262

Ken
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: candleflame on Saturday 12 March 11 23:34 GMT (UK)
On Ancestry, if you click on the search tab at the top of the page and then choose Military records from the drop down list, you will get a military search form. In that search box type in James Martin and where it says More Keyword( further down the form) put in the service number - 3645, the first entry that comes up in the results has 4 images. Just click through them and see if there is sufficient info to prove he is YOUR James Martin. That one certainly refers to a cavalry regiment. If he's not the correct one, go back to your search results and have a look at all the other James Martins to see if you can find the right one. Your one may not be in the first few pages so keep looking ( from my own experience :))
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Sunday 13 March 11 13:58 GMT (UK)
Ken
Thanks for the tips
I notice on the medal card that he was army service corp in WW1 and got a new number r-39733 would this be a reserve force as he was older. I had a look on find my past and there is a mention of him in the boer war section, but I can't view it as I am not a member, it may well be  another medal card
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 13 March 11 17:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Christine

The Army Service Corps were the transport and supply department. So still full-time. He may have been medically downgraded as he got older.

He received the QSA with clasp for Cape Colony and the Orange Free State. This suggests he was a later reinforcement and that he missed the set battles of the first year of the war.

Ken
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Sunday 13 March 11 18:52 GMT (UK)
Ken
Thanks for that, appreciate the help, I am very new to searching army records. I only recently discovered that my dad who recently passed away was called after his uncle who died in the first world war aged 23, I don't think my dad even knew he existed.
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: macintosh on Monday 14 March 11 08:17 GMT (UK)
I'll bet those wizards on the photographic restoration board would do a great job on this soldier,

James
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Monday 14 March 11 09:03 GMT (UK)
I will post on the restore board and get them to give it a go, it is in a sorry state,

Ken
Saw the record on Ancestry for James Martin, unfortunately its not my James Martin there is a brother listed as next of kin and he only had sisters, :-( back to the drawing board

Thanks for your help

Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Monday 14 March 11 21:24 GMT (UK)
James
You were right they did a great job
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,520437.0.html
Thanks
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ScouseBoy on Monday 14 March 11 21:45 GMT (UK)
Yes, they did use horses during WW1 in France.   For pulling Artillery guns   and supply wagons.   In fact the Germans and the Poles and the Russians still used Horses during WW2.
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Tuesday 15 March 11 09:53 GMT (UK)
Scouse
You mention supply wagons, someone said it may be an Army Service Corp uniform as it is not as pristine as regular army.

Any ideas of likely age of uniform?

Thanks
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Tuesday 15 March 11 09:55 GMT (UK)
Candle Flame
Your search tips worked a treat, but unfortunately he is not my man
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: scrimnet on Friday 18 March 11 23:35 GMT (UK)
I would be very surprised if this is a chap born in 1874 :o

I would say he was in his early 20s

The pic was taken late 1917- early 1919

He has no medal ribbons, which somebody who was in the Boer War would wear, if not by pride alone, but but general uniform regulations
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Sunday 20 March 11 18:41 GMT (UK)
scrimnet
I thought he looked 20-25 which is why I hoped it was a boer war photo (although cause the uniform was kaky (not sure about spelling) in my limited knowledge it looked more ww1) I have a soldier in the family history who joined in 1916 but he was 30 at the time. think its back to the drawing board.
Thanks for your help, much appreciated

Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: kirkbairn on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:38 BST (UK)
would love to know when it is from boer or first war
It is the snake belt buckle I am interested to find when it was used
Jim
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: LJReb123 on Wednesday 30 March 11 21:53 BST (UK)
Try this link,

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1914/components/1914_belts_braces_straps.html

regards,

David
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Thursday 31 March 11 09:09 BST (UK)
David
Thanks for that, this is interesting, more support for him being a WW1 soldier
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: earlybird on Thursday 31 March 11 13:50 BST (UK)
The Canadians had a snake buckle on their belts in the Boer War - a possibility? Initially I thought it was Australian but Canadian is more likely.     Earlybird
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: earlybird on Thursday 31 March 11 14:01 BST (UK)
Yep, the Canadian Mounted Rifles - Boer War had the snake buckle and the standup collar. However, you really need to check with a military uniform expert.   Cheers, Early.
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Thursday 31 March 11 16:05 BST (UK)
Oh good Early bird, maybe he is my soldier born in 1874,  being in the Boer War would make him the right age in this photo, I know he got married in 1907 in Co Down Northern Ireland age 33 which is late for that period, so I thought he might have been in the army or abroad before that.
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ScouseBoy on Friday 01 April 11 13:22 BST (UK)
Have you considered he may have been in India or Egypt, or even on garrison duty in the UK.  There were plenty of soldiers of that period who did not see service in the Boer War.  There would be other garrisons in other patrs of Africa.
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Monday 11 April 11 14:10 BST (UK)
Scouse Boy
My knowledge of the Army is unfortunately very bad, hence me being on here and looking for help for all you knowledgeble chaps and chapesses.  Any ideas how to check for army service at that time :-)
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 14 April 11 17:39 BST (UK)
Oh good Early bird, maybe he is my soldier born in 1874,  being in the Boer War would make him the right age in this photo, I know he got married in 1907 in Co Down Northern Ireland age 33 which is late for that period, so I thought he might have been in the army or abroad before that.
Christine
  I suggest that you apply for a copy of his marriage certificate. That may give you more information.
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: scrimnet on Saturday 16 April 11 19:37 BST (UK)
Oh good Early bird, maybe he is my soldier born in 1874,  being in the Boer War would make him the right age in this photo, I know he got married in 1907 in Co Down Northern Ireland age 33 which is late for that period, so I thought he might have been in the army or abroad before that.
Christine

I'm afraid not...

This pic as I said earlier was taken between 1917 and 1919..No doubts whatsoever about that!  ;D

And deffo NOT Canadian or other Colonials or Dominions...Sorry
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: ceedee on Sunday 17 April 11 16:27 BST (UK)
thanks scrimnet, no idea who he is then :-( a bit more ferreting about in the family records me thinks.

I have a John Flanagan married to a great Aunt of mine (Margaret Martin) who joined up in 1916 but he is listed as age 30, which is too old for this picture. he was in the Royal Irish Rifles his number was 5473,

if you had time to look at his record on Ancestry I would love your opinion on what happened to him, there are 39 images and from what I can see he was absent from camp from 12.30 at night until 5.30 the next morning and he seems to have got 42 days, then the next set of records he is in HMP Leicester, they wouldn't have sent him to prison for being missing for 5 hours would they??  I wondered did he desert? thanks
Christine
Title: Re: Help to identify a uniform
Post by: scrimnet on Sunday 17 April 11 19:06 BST (UK)
Sorry I dont have Anpestry this year.... :'(

But it would take some grievous crime to get him into a civvy prison, and not just a short AWOL!!!