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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: millymcb on Saturday 23 October 10 16:39 BST (UK)
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Hi - does anyone know if and when Ancestry (or anyone else other than FindMyPast) will be getting the 1911 Census? My subs are due for renewal and I am trying to decide which site to go with this year?
Thanks
Milly ;D
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It is not yet known when the 1911 Census will be available to other publishers to provide within a subscription service.
Stan
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Thanks - don't really need it that much at the moment but thought I'd check before making any decisions.
Milly ;D
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haven't Genes got it now?
Ancestry are only getting the household sheet, you won't be able to view each individual census.
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haven't Genes got it now?
FindMyPast and GenesReunited are both owned by the same company, Brightsolid, whilst GR does seem to have a different index to FindMyPast its likely they are accessing FindMyPast's images.
One of the reasons Ancestry (and others) don't have it yet could be cost. Both FindMyPast & GR have subscriptions with or without the 1911 census (FindMyPast also has the 1911 census as a stand alone subscription) but in all cases you are paying about 40 GBP for 6 months subscription to the 1911 census componant. At this stage Ancestry (and others) may well feel that the purchase price plus cost of transcribing cannot be absorbed.
I seem to recall that one subscription (not Ancestry) site contacted its subscribers for their views and the figure of 3 million pounds was mentioned,
Andy
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Didn't know GR had it - but I wasn't considering them anyway. Just had it in my head Ancesry might get it soon but it appears not. Thanks
Milly ;D
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It will depend a lot on the deal TNA did with FindMyPast - but I would be surprised if Ancestry didn't get it on the normal release date (1 Jan 2012). I know TheGenealogist was looking at it with a view to adding it to their site, but I suspect they are put of by the cost (the figure I heard was very big).
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I hadn't considered The Genealogist. I have never used them. Will have to have a look and see what they have got.
Milly
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I thought that FindMyPast/Brightsolid had exclusive rights for a period of six months after release - counting from when they had released all counties, that time limit was up a good while ago.
I imagine that other companies would buy the rights to use FindMyPast's images and probably do their own transcriptions. That would take time and it may well be that Ancestry already have it in hand.
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this is from Ancestry
Early Release of the 1911 UK Census
Ancestry is committed to launching new historical record collections online for our members, and also selected collections perhaps already available elsewhere which our members have expressed a strong interest in accessing on our site. Our current plan is to launch onsite the 1911 Census Enumerator Books, which we are confident will be of terrific use to members, helping them to cross-track their ancestors through censuses, telephone book, military records etc during the early part of the 20th century.
Just the enumerator books
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You can an see example of the Enumerator's Summary Book at http://www.1911census.co.uk/content/default.aspx?r=24&152
Stan
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That should be very useful in the absence of the actual return.
I think I got most of my returns when I had access for six months :)
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They look quite interesting... especially for someone as nosey as me ;D
Milly ;D
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Hi
Looking at the example it looks like the Enumerators Books are different to earlier censuses, they only show the head of the household (surname only?), the address and the number of males and females. its a one line entry that does not give any useful information. You need the actual household schedule to get all the names, ages place of birth etc.
Andy
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From the 1911 Census on, the data was put on to punched cards directly from the Householder's Schedules. There are no enumerators books as in the previous censuses, where the enumerator copied the data from the schedules into the books, which is what you now see. The original census schedules, up to 1901, were destroyed .
Stan
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Destroyed? :o
:'(
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The release of the England & Wales 1911 census has actually destroyed a lot of myths about how the census was taken.
Many people think that emumerators went from door to door filling in the books from questions asked, and they think this explains mis-transcriptions due to people being mis-heard.
The real truth is that every census has been held in the same way - census schedules left with householders to fill in; census forms collected; census data copied from the schedules into the enumerator's returns books. The questions asked have varied from census to census, but the way the census is held has never changed.
The only difference was that the householder schedules for the 1911 census were not destroyed, and have been made available for public view. This is the first time that people have been able to see their ancestors' handwriting on a census (even though sometimes it's not clear who filled the form in).
Getting back to the Ancestry 1911 debate, I think Ancestry are reluctant to spend a lot of money on giving the 1911 census to its subscribers, because many of them will have already accessed the information via Brightsolid, so it's not an urgency for them.
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Destroyed? :o
:'(
The original householder's schedules, 1841-1901, were destroyed many years ago, along with the enumerator's memorandum books, but the enumerator's books, which are what we now refer to as the census returns, were kept.
Stan
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The 1911 Census itself contains some 35,000 volumes of schedules and 38,000 enumerators summary books. A total of 10,064,500 schedules were printed, which will be in the 35,000 volumes. So it will be much less work to scan and index the enumerator's summary books, than the schedules.
Stan
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The 1911 Census itself contains some 35,000 volumes of schedules and 38,000 enumerators summary books. A total of 10,064,500 schedules were printed, which will be in the 35,000 volumes. So it will be much less work to scan and index the enumerator's summary books, than the schedules.
I doubt that any scanning will be needed - TNA would not put precious documents like these through the trauma of scanning/photography more often than necessary - ie once.
FindMyPast's early access will, I guess, have paid for the digitisation, but I suspect TNA managed it and got to keep copies and the right to flog them to all comers after a delay.
I suspect it all comes down to cost (which, I have been told, is enormous) - Ancestry don't yet see that the full monty would be worth it in business terms.
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I thought that FindMyPast/Brightsolid had exclusive rights for a period of six months after release - counting from when they had released all counties, that time limit was up a good while ago.
I imagine that other companies would buy the rights to use FindMyPast's images and probably do their own transcriptions. That would take time and it may well be that Ancestry already have it in hand.
Told ya ;)
O ye of little faith ;D
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Hello any RC person know if the 1911 will be coming to Ancestry did it read it somewhere or just thought I did
Mrs Griff
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I've merged your post with the existing thread about 1911 census coming to Ancestry.
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Many people think that emumerators went from door to door filling in the books from questions asked, and they think this explains mis-transcriptions due to people being mis-heard.
The real truth is that every census has been held in the same way - census schedules left with householders to fill in; census forms collected; census data copied from the schedules into the enumerator's returns books. The questions asked have varied from census to census, but the way the census is held has never changed.
At the dates of the early censuses there was still a high level of illiteracy. As a result enumerators completed a large number of census schedules for households. Therefore, being mis-heard does partially explain mis-transcriptions / errors subsequently recorded in the returns books. By 1901 a much higher proportion of households were filling in the schedules themselves and poor handwriting is of greater significance.
Nigel
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I have been a Census Enumerator and although we left the forms with each household, we were made aware that not everyone would fill them in.
I helped several people,mostly elderly, by filling in the forms whilst sitting in their homes with them. Some people were unable to write due to poor literacy, others because of arthritis in their hands. Both would have affected our ancestors too.
Pat ...
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Surveys of adult literacy in the early part of Victoria's reign suggest that, for example, 79 per cent of the Northumberland and Durham miners could read, and about half of them could write. Eighty seven per cent of children in the Norfolk and Suffolk workhouse in 1838 could read and write. Thanks to the growth in freelance schooling, all privately financed, literacy levels had risen to about 92 per cent by 1870 and Forster's Education Act
"The Victorians" by A.N. Wilson ISBN 0-09-945186-7.
Letter from RH Gregg of Styal to Edwin Chadwick:Manchester, 17 September 1834
Gregg, a factory owner at Styal near Manchester; was having difficulty in finding enough workers for his mill at Quarry Bank. His solution is set out in this letter to Edwin Chadwick, secretary to the Poor Law Commission.
Whilst food is cheap and wages high, the want of education (I do not merely mean the ability to read and write, which few here are without), but education which may affect manners, morals, and the proper use of their advantages, is extremely felt and to be deeply deplored. I do hope Government will not allow another session to pass without making some struggle to effect this most desirable object.
Annual Report of the Poor Law Commission, Appendix C number 5 (1835)
Everywhere there were clergymen, doctors, schoolmasters, shopkeepers, tradesmen or a neighbour who would help with the filling in of the schedule.
Just to add from the Enumerators Instructions for 1851;
If, on enquiry for the Schedule, it is delivered to him not filled up, he must fill it up himself, asking all the necessary questions. He should if possible, see the head of the family for that purpose, and obtain the information from him. In the abscence of the Occupier, any other member of the family possessing the requisite intelligence, may supply the necessary particulars.
Stan
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Blast bor! Oi wasn't working on those Census! ;D
Some interesting snippets there Stan, thanks for posting them.
I will find my copy of 'The Victorians', inspired to have another little read of it.
Have visited the Quarry Bank Mill at Styall a couple of times over the years - well worth visiting.
Pat ...
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I did have a 6mths subscription with FindMyPast and found a lot of rellies on the1911 , but as I have a yearly world wide one with Ancestry I could not keep the two going , but still wish I had the 1911 at my fingertips so to speak , so hears hoping it will become available on you know where ;D
Mrs Griff
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so that will be three sites hosting the 1911 England & Wales Census - might be able to do own transcriptions now 8)
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so that will be three sites hosting the 1911 England & Wales Census - might be able to do own transcriptions now 8)
;D ;D ;D
Oh I do hope so Mort- without having to be so cryptic about it as we are now.
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LOL :o :P
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LoL :) I did mean Ancestry
Mrs Griff
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Well this isn't a secret
The 1911 Census is Coming to TheGenealogist!
It's on their website. Look at www.thegenealogist.co.uk/1911/?data=1911TGHP
Lizzie
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The Genealogist 'Diamond' members only, though - the Ancestry 1911 data will be available to all subscription levels.
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Don't see the enumerators books being a lot of use
It's a big hole in the ancestry offering
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Don't see the enumerators books being a lot of use
It's a big hole in the ancestry offering
The enumerators records will be the first offering - the full returns will follow in early 2011.
As for "Don't see the enumerators books being a lot of use" - well, that's what we've all worked from on the 1841 to 1901 censuses ???
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As for "Don't see the enumerators books being a lot of use" - well, that's what we've all worked from on the 1841 to 1901 censuses
The Enumerators Books for the 1911 census are different than the earlier censuses, they only show the head of the household (surname only?), the address and the number of males and females. its a one line entry that does not give any useful information. You need the actual household schedule to get all the names, ages place of birth etc
Stan posted a link to an example earlier in this topic
http://www.1911census.co.uk/content/default.aspx?r=24&152
Andy
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Apologies - I stand corrected :-[
Anyway, Ancestry give the impression that all the records from the 1911 census will be available in 2011, so we won't have long to wait :)
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Anyone know when Ancestry are going to publish the completed 1911 census?
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See
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,495348.0.html
Stan
now merged with existing thread
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Anyone know when Ancestry are going to publish the completed 1911 census?
When they've finished transcribing it ;D
Read their blog on the progress so far here....
http://blogs.ancestry.com/uk/2011/02/24/1911-%e2%80%93-your-monthly-update/
Carol
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I wonder if they'll be letting the World Archives Project transcribers loose on it ? If they do, I'll be joining in :)
I also note that the UK Postal Service appointment books should be online on Ancestry soon 8)