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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: SandraD on Sunday 06 March 11 14:41 GMT (UK)
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Please, does anyone have information about my great-grandmother, Leander Green? Born in 1880, apparently of Romany descent, she lived with Alfred Thorpe in Portslade-by-Sea, Sussex. I can only find her on the 1901 Census. I'm not sure if they married but they had, possibly, 10 children between 1899 and 1930. I do know that Leander was a well-known figure in the area. Thank you.
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Sandra, I found a marriage on FreeBMD,
LEANDA Green to Alfred J. Thorpe, Steyning, Sussex (2b 755) Q4 1931
Portslade comes under Steyning RD.
So, they married after the fact ;) If you get a copy of their marriage it should give her father's name.
Jane
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There's a good page here on Rootschat for those looking for information & help with travelling people
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html
I'm sure someone can help you out,
Jane
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Thank you - that was quick. I'll start tracking that down immediately.
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Sandra I've found Leander & her family in 1891;
Solomon HEARNE 52 Tinker NK where born
Eliza 48 ditto
Job 22 b. Ssx
Polly 15 ditto
LEANDER 12 b. Sry
Mark 3
Daniel 12m
There at 54 Wardley St, Wandsworth RG12/448/116/19
I noticed on the 1901 that she states she is married & Albert says not married so there's a chance she 'married' in the Romany way before she met Albert & had that 1 child, Unity.
I can't find that marriage or Unity's birth reg on FreeBMD but that doesn't surprise me ;)
I'm looking on the 1881 for the family but no luck yet. They might have 'escaped' being enumerated!
Jane
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Good idea to hedge your bets on this site too Sandra.
To avoid duplication though, it may help Rootschatters to help you further by knowing what information you already have from the two strings of the 'My Brighton' website.
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__5595_path__0p114p126p917p.aspx
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/forum_id__5_state__st_idthread__5380_idmessage__21025.aspx
On that site there is already a note regarding Unity Green's birth.
The full details for obtaining a certificate is that she was born in the June quarter of 1897 in Hartley Wintney. Reference 2c 171
Following through from Jane's findings, its possible that there was no Official marriage between Soloman and Eliza either, so Leander's birth may have been overlooked or just registered in her mother's surname.
Roy G.
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Thanks for the detective work, Roy, it makes things clearer.
Doing a bit of digging with the census gets a little confusing :-\ 1891 has Leander with her siblings & parents, Solomon & Eliza Hearne in Wandsworth.
Going back to 1881 this same Solomon & Eliza are at South Weald, Essex at Daws Farm (RG11/1756/149/6) but no Leander only a 1 year old daughter, Mary born Southweald..is this Leander? Essex is not Surrey!
1871 has Solomon & Eliza in N. Benfleet (RG10/1659/14/4)
Possible marriage of Solomon Hearn, Q1 1864, Chelmsford with an Eliza Everitt on same page.
1861 there is a possible siting of Solomon but down as Solomon Amos a servant.
1851, Great Baddow (HO107/1776/540/25)
Joseph Smith 36 ag lab b. Broomfield, Essex
Sarah Smith 38 b. Widford, Essex
SOLOMON H. SMITH 13 b. Gt. Baddow
Jessie? male 7 ditto
Emily 4 ditto
Amos 1 ditto
1841 Grt. Baddow
Meshac Hurn 70 Tinman not born Essex
Sarah 25 born Essex
Solomon 4 ditto
Looks like Solomon was illegitimate but Sarah marries a Joseph Smith, Q3 1844, Chelmsford. Sarah Hearn on same page.
There is a death reg. for Leander Thorpe Q1 1947, Worthing. Her age is given as 73 which gives her a DOB of 1874. They've made her a few years older ::)
Jane
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Still a little confusing.
You say 1881 has no Leander only a 1 year old daughter Mary
FreeBMD however, lists Leander Hearn (without an E) registered as born Croydon district in the March quarter of 1879.
If that is her in 1891, how did Leander Hearn(e) become Leander Green? At the moment I can only think that unless she already had a previous marriage, she pronounced her surname 'HEEN' Roy G
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Hi Roy, you're sharper than me as I didn't find that BMD birth :-[
See my reply#4 regards GREEN. As yet I didn't find the marriage of Leander to a Green.
Jane
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There are so many twists and turns in this, and supposition comes to the fore.
Leander is an unusual name, but a Leander Hearne married in Fulham in 1895. That would be when Sandra's Leander was about 16.
Unity appears as Unity Green on the 1901 census, and on her birth cert dated 1897, but neither of the possible spouses in 1895 were called Green (Albert Wolfe or John Hearne [cousin?]).
If Leander did not marry someone by the name of Green, perhaps she and her husband separated and following this she produced a child whose father was surnamed Green, mother's name Hearne. (The answer to that should be found in Unity's birth cert). For while after that she could have then called herself Leander Green for Unity's sake.
Furthermore, if that 1895 marriage was Leander, perhaps she never married Alfred until 1931 because her first husband was still alive?
Supposition as I said. Unfortunately Sandra you have to embark on a rolling programme buying a few certs to find if there is any truth in any of it. Roy G
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I think Sandra has a lot to go through & certainly plenty of leads. If it was my research I would try & find mention of her funeral in 1947 in a local newspaper. She certainly seems a colourful character & Romany funerals are a sight to behold!
Jane
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Firstly, thank you both so much for all your help and suggestions.
I must now collate all the info I've amassed since Friday and start some serious searching. I've just ordered a marriage cert in the hope it will show Leander's father's name. I do hope he hadn't died before their marriage. A & L were together in 1901, my gran (Helene) was born in 1903 and the marriage was 1931 - Leander was a grandmother by then (my mother born 1926).
Sandra
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Sandra it might be of interest to view the 1911 census for Leander & Alfred. I saw them on the index in Steyning but you have to buy credits to view the original.
I do so hope the marriage certificate states that her father was Samuel, otherwise we'll have to start all over again ;D
Jane
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Hello Jane
It would be good if it answered our questions. I'll have to be patient and await the post. Think I might concentrate on someone else for a change
Sandra
Ps - Did you mean Solomon (not Samuel)? Also, is Leander in your family tree as well?
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Sorry meant Solomon :-[ Wish she was in my tree she seems such an interesting person!
Jane
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Morning Sandra.
In case you are no longer following the My Brighton site, I thought I should let you know that Leander Green's daughter in law, through her son Albert, has left you a message and contact address. In it, she also writes about having seen a photo of Leander, but it is unclear whether she still has a copy
(Unfortunately, My Brighton does not flag new related messages, they should learn from Rootschat) Roy G
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Thank you Roy.
I will check that, I didn't realise they weren't as proficient as this site - Sandra
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Hello Jane & Roy G - Sorry for the delay - I've been away. I have Leander's marriage certificate and the info is as follows:
3rd December 1931 at Steyning Register Office
Alfred James Thorpe (bachelor) aged 55 yrs. Father - William Thorpe (deceased)
Leanda Green (widow) aged 56 yrs. Father - George Gladman (deceased)
Address - 11 Buckler's St, Portslade-by-Sea
Witnesses - W J & M Pierce
Alfred signed but Leander made her mark
Perhaps she was waiting for her first husband to die as I think you suggested, Jane.I'll concentrate on George Gladman now and see how far it takes me.
Sandra
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Hi Sandra,
So we really 'barked up the wrong tree'? :-[ Leander wasn't the daughter of Solomon Hearne!Back to the drawing board!
It looks like Leander's DOB is about 1875 according to her marriage certificate & her death reg. which is about 1874.
The birth reg. then, Leander Hearn Q1 1879, Croydon is not your Leander but the daughter of Solomon.
Just to confuse matters further there is a birth reg. for a Leander GREEN, Q2 1875, Mile End.
I'm sure that's just a coincidencen :-\
I've been looking for Leander Gladman with father, George in the 1881 & 1891 census but with no luck as yet. Perhaps, 'hawk eyes' Roy might spot them ;)
Jane
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Roy's been doing the same, but has begun to whether Leander came from a liberated travelling community that indulged in passing relationships, where marriage had little significance, or simply had no respect for registration or legislation (have you filled out your census forms?)
So unless you have already found both parents of Leander Green and can officially discount her, I advise you to keep her in the frame for a while just in case her mum turns out to be single, or was married but "strayed" during her husband's absence. (gosh you do have to choose your words carefully on this site!) Roy G
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Hi Roy,
She does say she's widowed on her marriage to Alfred & marry's in the name of Leanda Green with father George Gladman which suggests she was born Leanda Gladman & married a guy by the name of Green.
I've just been going over the B&H postings again & someone who has a birth certificate of one of their children gives her maiden name as Gladwin. More for the melting pot!
Jane
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Another GUT FEELING she slipped the net being cast by officialdom is that she signed her M cert with an X in 1931. That suggests she never had any education whatsoever. Pity you dont have the Green M cert (if one existed) to see if her mark made on that too?
Was Gladwin a typo for Gladman by the way? Roy G
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Roy, I'm not sure about the Gladwin/Gladman issue. I think we should wait & see what Sandra makes of all this. I'm also intrigued as to Romany marriages. Did they also marry in a church? If they didn't was it considered legally binding? I'm thinking about Leander stating on the 1901 census that she was married whereas Alfred says he's single which fits in with her status of widow when she marries in 1931. Was she waiting for her husband (Green) to die so that she could marry Alfred? Why is it we can't find her Green marriage?
This is a very confusing piece of research ::)
Jane
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Hi,
Been following the thread and did find entries in 1881 and 1891 for a Linda Gladwin, father George , who seems to fit the bill. Born Mitcham.
1891 RG12 /592 15/29
1881 RG 11/826 148/36
Can t find a marriage though
Best wishes
Cathy
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Ooh yes there is
JAS 1897 Reigate 2a 367
James Green same page
Linda Gladwin
Cathy
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Well done Cathy :D That's her;
1881 - tent on Mitcham Common
Mister Gladwin 22 Pedlar b. Croydon
Harriet 21 ditto b. Fulham Fields, Sry
Linda 1 b. Mitcham
On the image it could read Leanda.
1891 - 24 Wilford Rd, Croydon
George Gladwin 32 Hawker b. Croydon
Harriet 31 b. Battersea
Linda 11 b. Mitcham
William 7 ditto
George ? ditto
James 3 ditto
The birth reg. for Unity Green that Roy found was Q2 (Apr, May, June) 1897, Hartley Witney in Hants.
I found a baptism on the familysearch beta site for Unity Green, 11/1/1899, Surrey. Parents, Jim & Richenda Green (could Richenda be a mis-transcription??) Is this the right Unity having been born in Hants but later baptised in Surrey???
Jane
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Great seeing a mystery slowly unravel. What a history to have and what dedication from all & sundry Roy G
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Yes Roy, this was a hard nut to crack :) but very interesting,
Jane
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Yes really well done everyone, pity we can t pin down Leanders birth, how frustrating.
Cathy :)
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Leander or Lydia's birth was perhaps one of the very few that actually was,
'Under a Gooseberry Bush', or some other similar looking clump of rural vegetation!!! Roy G
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It's certainly beginning to look that way Roy ::) The only one that comes up is the Hearne one which must be Solomon's daughter & I've totally discounted that one as she appears on a separate page for 1901, so two Leander's around the same age both born Surrey.
I've been having loads of fun reading-up about London Romany gypsies especially those on Mitcham Common,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/LONDON-Gypsy-Mitcham-common-Surrey/dp/B0030IEUWI
http://concerttee.com/posters/posters.php?item=6811496
http://www.untoldlondon.org.uk/article/london039s-romany-gypsies
Someone has George & Harriet Gladwin on their tree on Ancestry. They have Harriet down as Harriet Ann Cooper (1860-1931) Not sure how accurate this is but there were two Cooper families on Mitcham Common in 1881.
Jane
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I am now playing hunches which as you know are NOT fact, but they provide useful theories.
The 1881 census has:
Gladwin Mister 1859 Norwood Croydon, Mitcham
Gladwin Harriet 1860 Fulham Fields Croydon, Mitcham
Gladwin Linda 1880 Mitcham Croydon, Mitcham
Gladwin Joseph 1833 Norwood Croydon, Mitcham
Gladwin Mary 1841 London Croydon, Mitcham
We know the first three and believe Linda could be Leander, but its the last two that interest me. They are gathered together in the same place as families do and of an age and birthplace to be Mister (George) Gladwin's parents. Thoughts please? Roy G
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Furthermore, I do not know which of the Romany sites you have been looking at, but the following messages from and to a Rosalind on a BBC Kent website from 4 years back might be also useful.
To BRITT DIXIE....I don't think Leander is the correct spelling as it is a male name so it was most probably recorded wrongly...already found two different surnames for birth certificates...Gladwin and Gladman...the last one is a combination of two of her names!!!...she also used to deliver babies in the Portslade (Sussex) area during 1900 to 1940's and she would just sign with a cross...thank you again...rosalind hersee
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For ROSALIND HERSEE .... there were quite a few GLADWIN'S living in the mitchum area try the parish records..because most romanies couldn't read or write it was down to whoever was filling the forms in to spell names as they heard them..this coupled with the way romanies spoke names were often recorded as different than they were,also you might find the same person listed on two or three occasions as something slightly different.so try lenda, linda, or leenda. good luck britt
Tue Mar 27 19:27:17 2007
site http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/have_your_say/community/romany_voices_archive42.shtml
Rosalind has another entry on the My Brighton website where she writes about a Leonora (not Leander) Godsalve H Newman of Buckler Street and her 12 children
site http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__6191_path__0p114p126p1243p.aspx
Roy G
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Hi Roy,
Yes, I would agree with you, that Joseph & Mary could well be the parents of George Gladwin.
It's driving me potty trying to find a birth or baptism record for Leander.
1881, 1891 & 1901 suggests 1880.
1911 suggests 1877.
Marriage in 1931 suggests 1876.
Death in 1947 suggests 1874.
::) Jane ::)
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Hi Jane.
Had this been the more run of the mill family, we would take the age of the eldest child and look for a marriage either side of that year. Alternatively, we would find the marriage and look for the eldest child's birth either side of that date. But this is not a run of the mill family and therefore breaks all of the rules. So a marriage as we know it may or may not have taken place and although births happened, in all probability, registration or a baptism of that child may not have been done either. So unless 'L' or a sibling conforms to civil or ecclesiastical protocol at some stage, or transgresses the law in some way, you are left to speculate.
I have applied a little logic but that too is based on some speculation. Firstly we have to know if the Linda found on the 1881 census is the person sought ? (otherwise its a waste of time) If that is her, even the most simple of enumerators should be able to deduce the growth differences between a hardly walking and possibly still breast fed 1 year old and a rampaging five year old that is already undertaking simple domestic chores, so a birth year nearer to 1880 should be more acceptable. Roy G
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My own thoughts exactly Roy. The age on the 1881 census is going to be the most likely to be correct as is the next one, 1891, when one of her parents gave her age. She seems to have got it right in 1901 when she's a young adult with Alfred but after that it all goes to pot ;)
Jane
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I hope I'm not being sexist by saying that when it comes to correctness of age, some ladies have been known to show an element of constructive flexibility!!! Roy G
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Nicely put Roy, but she's making herself OLDER ;D
Jane
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Thanks everyone for your invaluable input. I've been in hospital and I was delighted to find all the activity that has gone on in the meantime.
It plainly states Gladman on the marriage cert but if Leander had 'an accent' then her pronunciation of her late father's surname may have confused the registrar. Everything else seems pretty conclusive, doesn't it? I have found a Baptism record for her younger brother William Gladwin (2 Mar 1884 at Streatham St Leonard) but it doesn't look like her parents bothered to register her.
My grandmother was Helen Harriet Thorpe so probably named after Leander's mother. I have a surviving uncle, grandson of Leander, who will be very excited by all this. He was only 7 when she died and can't remember much - except she was 'scary'! As to her age, will we ever really know.
Sandra D
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Someone else who is connected has just appeared on the My Brighton website. Today, PATRICIA CARLTON wrote
I AM TRYING TO FIND THEPARENTS OF MY GRANDMOTHER LEANDER GLADWIN SHE WAS BORN WITH GYPSY DECENDANTS AROUND 1869 SHE LIVED IN STYENING, AND I ASSUME SHE LIVED WITH MY GRANDFATHER ALFRED THORPE AS I CANT FIND A MARRAGE, HER DAUGHTER WAS GERTRUDE THORPE ONE OF MANY CHILDREN.
Another person for you to share your info with Sandra. Roy G
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Thanks Roy. I found Patricia yesterday and have shared all our info with her. Perhaps she'll be able to come up with more.
I seem to have been 'locked out' for a couple of days - don't know why that should happen.
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It seems that the Brighton & Hove site is the place to be Sandra! Probably your next move would be to try & find a possible baptism for Leander? We've not had any luck with a birth reg so maybe a baptism can be found. Mitcham parish church is the obvious place to start.
Jane
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Don't think I 'locked it' myself, I wouldn't know how!!
My Brighton & Hove is a fascinating site and extremely easy to use. When logged on type in 'Copperas Gap' and you'll find all sorts of anecdotes and mentions of the Thorpes. I've picked up a few bits but nothing exact - some interesting things about a gyspy campsite and a sad story of one of Leander's children drowning in the canal. I did find out that Leander was the 'local midwife' in 1930s and 40s. If she's survived another year she could have delivered me - we all lived in Wolseley Road.
On 1891 Census I have found Gladwins living at 24 Wilford Rd (page 29)and a James Green at 32 Wilford Rd (page 30). Could that possibly be him? Seems much older than Leander (Linda).
Sandra
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Moderators don't lock threads without a good reason (and would usually explain why a thread has been locked) so you probably locked it accidentally by clicking on the lock without realising it. It's unlocked now so you can continue the thread :)
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Thank you and sorry. :)
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Thank you Jane ;) for the tip about articles regarding Romanies on Mitcham Common. Fascinating reading and some good photos.
There are several Harriet Cooper's listed and I'm not having much luck finding the right one. Likewise with James Green. I'm refuse to give up though and hope to report back favourably sometime.
Sandra
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I was wondering if Leander was born in such a tent!
Keep digging,
Jane
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Leander is not an unusual name amongst gypsies. Leander Hearne and Leander Green may not be the same one.
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Cinementa Hearn was sometimes known as Leander -
Emanuel Hearn b abt 1843 Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England married Cinementa/Sinementa/Cinamenti/Leander Hearn born about 1841 Stokenchurch, Oxfordshire.
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Hello Alison - Leander Green was my great-grandmother and she was born Linda Gladwin - in a tent on Mitcham Common. Green was her married name - James Green. She left him after the birth of their daughter, Unity. She then lived as a lodger with Alfred Thorpe and had many children with him. They eventually married in 1947.