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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: agoryliver on Sunday 06 March 11 13:56 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to research my Great Grandad called Henry George Hull. Family legend has it that he died in 1942/43 in Australia while serving in the Merchant Navy. I haven't been able to prove this so far.
The latest record that I have of him is in 1940 when he entered New York aboard the S.S. Britannic on which he was a "greaser".
The problem that I have is that I do not know the name of the Merchant Navy ship on which he served. Can anyone help? Thank you.
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Haven't you just identified the ship as the s.s. Brittanic?
Why do you think he died in Australia?
Dawn M
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Hi again
What were his parents' names?
There's a 1945 death in NSW,
7872/1945 HULL HENRY GEORGE parents HARRY & MARY registered at BULLI (which is about 100km south of Sydney)
Could be him?
Dawn M
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Thank you Dawn for your information. I have a tad more information about Henry George Hull....
1. Henry was born 15 Aug 1890 at Itchen, St. Mary's extra parish near Southampton, and he married in 1911/12 to Rose Edith Blundell.
2. Henry's parents are indeed Henry & Mary Catherine Hull (Jones). Henry was from Donhead St. Mary in Wiltshire and Mary Catherine from Porthmadog in Caernarvonshire.
3. My Mum is the only source of oral history of him. The trouble is that as she wasn't born until 1942, she has no memory of him. He apparently knew that my Mum had been born-she would have been his only grandchild at the time.She's said that what she knows of him was told to her by Henry George's wife (my great grandma). She said that Henry George was living in Liverpool (presumably the ships aboard which he served were based there) instead of with her in Southampton, and that he was "carrying on" with another woman in Liverpool.
4. I cannot be sure that he was aboard the S.S Britannic in 1942-45, it was a complete surprise to my mum when I told her that he was aboard it in 1940, although she knew he'd worked on the liners. I'm going to google the Britannic in a minute.
5. Apparently when he died, the ship had left port 1 or 2 days previously and went back to port so he could be buried. Mum said that was buried in the "blue mountains" in Australia.
Thank you again for your time in trying to resolve this family mystery.
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Hi again
"Mum said that he was buried in the "blue mountains" in Australia"
The Blue Mountains is west of Sydney, a well known tourist spot. My parents had their honeymoon there :D
Bulli is south of Sydney on the way to Wollongong.
There's a Henry Hull death 1970 on the Ryerson Index, at Woy Woy which is about 60km north of Sydney . Age 74. But you think he died in the 1940s so the Bulli one looks promising.
Might be worth getting a transcript or a partial transcript of the Bulli one?
Dawn M
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There are no primary on line Merchant Navy records for your G/G. That does not mean there are none.
Where did you get your information that he entered the port of New York in 1940 aboard BRITANNIC?
There were two vessels with that name around in 1940, But the most likely candidate was the Motor Vessel M/V BRITANNIC official number 162316, owned by Cunard and registered in Liverpool.
She made several trips to New York returning to Liverpool from January until August 1940 before being used as a Troopship. I can find no evidence that she ever visited an Australian port 1940-1946 but more likely he arrived aboard a different vessel.
There are ways to find out about his possible MN career but its a long voyage.
I can find no records for him in the Deaths at Sea index's 1941-1944. A Greaser was an engine room operative who oiled and greased the ships moving parts.
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Hi Dawn,
I agree with you that the 1945 possibility is very promising. So promising in fact that I've taken the plunge and ordered the certificate. Should arrive in 3-4 weeks. Fingers crossed.
I'm extremely grateful for your help.
Gary.
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No worries.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you :D
Dawn M
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Hi,
I found out about Henry Hull being aboard the Britannic by searching on Ancestry. I can't remember exactly how as it was several months ago. I found him in a "List or Manifest of Alien passengers for the United States". I printed one off (there were several) for the Britannic, sailing from Liverpool, arriving in New York 21 July 1940. I can remember that some went back as far as 1937, some were for sailings from South Africa and the Caribbean and some were for another ship, but I can't remember which one. I will print these tomorrow (hopefully).
My Mum's also mentioned that she thinks he served aboard the Mauretania. As I live in Southampton, I'm hoping that there may be lots of information in the library there. I know there are many shelves of books about the Titanic as I've already proven that one of my relatives went down with the Titanic.
Thank you for your help.
Gary.
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There are no primary on line Merchant Navy records for your G/G. That does not mean there are none.
Where did you get your information that he entered the port of New York in 1940 aboard BRITANNIC?
There were two vessels with that name around in 1940, But the most likely candidate was the Motor Vessel M/V BRITANNIC official number 162316, owned by Cunard and registered in Liverpool.
She made several trips to New York returning to Liverpool from January until August 1940 before being used as a Troopship. I can find no evidence that she ever visited an Australian port 1940-1946 but more likely he arrived aboard a different vessel.
There are ways to find out about his possible MN career but its a long voyage.
I can find no records for him in the Deaths at Sea index's 1941-1944. A Greaser was an engine room operative who oiled and greased the ships moving parts.
I appreciate that you are a Merchant Navy expert. My belief was that the series of ships with names ending in "IC" were White Star ships. And names ending in "IA" were Cunard boats.
When did White Star merge with Cunard?
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On www.convoyweb.org.uk there is a Brittanic at just over 26,000 tons listed. she seems to be an Iron Ore carrier. She was sunk in February 1941
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Did a little digging on this one.
He did sail on BRITANNIC to New York signing on 17/7/1940 as a Greaser. He signed off in NY on the 30/7/1940, balance of wages £1 18s 7d. Seemingly he transferred to another vessel.
He gave his age as 50. Born in Southampton. His address was 57 Dean Road/ Gardens? Billterne? Southampton. He gave his Wife Ethel as NOK.
I can trace his MN records back to at least 1923 when he sailed on OROPESA O/N 143667. He also sailed on MAURETANIA.
If you live in Southampton. Go to Southampton City Archive and ask for the records from the Fourth Register of Merchant Seamen (Central Index) for HGH, Discharge number 1039242 (this number is unique for him and is the key to finding further records). They should have his records up until late 1940.
Then the real search begins to find his MN records from early 1941
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Thank you so much for the information that you've found out. You've done amazingly well.
I will go to the archives on Tuesday as I know that they are only open Tuesday,Wednesday & Thursday. Fingers crossed.
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I went to Southampton archives armed with Henry George Hull's number and found the following....
2x C.R. 1 cards. These contained, amongst other things, info like height,eye colour, hair colour which were all previously unknown.
2x C.R.2 cards. One states- rating greaser, the ship 166290 ( Queen Elizabeth I've found out) and date of engagement 31.7.40. Te second has rating Elec Attd, ship Mauretania 124093 and (date of engagement crossed out and replaced with date of Dis) 30.3.27. On the back of this 2nd card is the following
143667 18.2.22
124093 6.6.23
cont: issued ex Mauretania 12.5.31
Shell Brit 4 160497 31.12.37
162316 20.7.40
All I have done with this is to find out the names of he ships.
1x C.R.10 card. This gives his identity certificate number 476862 , rating of Fireman and some other info like name, D.O.B etc. On the back is a photo ( the first that I' ve seen of him) and 143283 18.9.20 and 129547 26.9.21
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Henry George Hull's death certificate arrived from Australia today. It's definitely the right one as it states that he was a seaman, born in Southampton and his parents as Harry Hull ( a gardener) and Mary Jones.
There are some interesting pieces of info including that he was "late of North Sydney", had lived in N.S.W. for almost 5 years and that he had not married! The research continues.
Again, thank you to Dawn and Seaweed for your help. I'm going round to my Mum's to show her the photo of her grand-dad that she never met.
Gary.
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I forgot to mention that the date of his death was 9 April 1945. Interesting.
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Great stuff, the jigsaw is fitting together.
If you wish I can give you all the names of the vessels he sailed on via their O/N's from 1920-1940
The most intresting part of your post was that he signed on QUEEN ELIZABETH the day after he signed off BRITANNIC.
I am wondering, did he stay on QE and jumped ship in Sydney NSW?
I know QE arrived Sydney 21/Feb/1941 after a conversion and refit in New York and Singapore.
Have you found a date and place he legally entered Australia?
He obtained medals which suggests he was in OZ legally. Did he join the AMN?
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His Medal record is here ( I think...
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http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8471759&queryType=1&resultcount=1
deebel
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Hi Gary :)
The person who registered the death might be someone to follow up on. They obviously knew Henry well enough to know (correctly!) who his parents were (unless they were told the info by someone else who knew him well, in which case they might be a red herring).
Cheers
Prue
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And, Gary, where was he buried? Bulli or the Blue Mountains? Or somewhere else?
Intrigued. Glad to know it was the correct death.
Dawn M
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When did White Star merge with Cunard?
Became Cunard White Star Limited in 1933 I think
deebel
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Just a quick update,
The person who registered his death seems to have been the undertaker- W.G. Williams.
He is buried at the Presbyterian Cemetery, Scarborough. Bulli has been stamped in the section called "particulars of registration"
The cause of death was a vesical haemorrhage & hemiotomy.
I have a (incomplete) list of the ship names gleaned from a website that I was advised to look at by the lady at Southampton Archives.
So now I need to find out when he arrived in Australia, whether or not he joined the Australian MN and if his medal entitlement was for WW1 or WW2, or both. I will also try harder to find a record of his marriage in 1911/12 and his wife's subsequent marriage to Thomas George Verney, in I think 1947.
Again, thanks to everyone for your help.
Gary. :)
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Hi Gary
Not sure about his cause of death.
Vesicle is the term for any sort of bladder, or bladder-like, even as small as a fluid filled blister.
In this case though it was probably a bladder haemorrhage.
Hemiotomy is not in my little medical dictionary but it seems to relate to a hernia of some kind.
Maybe he was in a fight on board ship?? These could be injuries. Though in that case you would think there would have been an inquest.
If the story of him dying a couple of days out of port is true, and they brought him back to Bulli, it indicates Australian coastal shipping (to me) rather than international.
Not sure how you find out if he was in the Australian merchant navy apart from contacting various lines. And as it was wartime...
The AUSN Co Ltd would probably be the largest. They seemed to range up and down the east coast.
But there were lots more I'm sure. I can remember ship names but not their lines.
If you think his Australian MN service was connected with war service, you might find something on the Australian War Memorial site? www.awm.gov.au/
Dawn M
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It appears he has medals from both world wars.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8471759&queryType=1&resultcount=20
I would agree with Dawn. Re ship turning back after a couple of days. This would be highly unlikely unless the vessel was a Australian coaster. The cost would be prohibitive if she was an ocean going vessel, more likely he would have been buried at sea.
A post here may shed some light on his WW2 service
http://www.merchant-navy-ships.com/
"I have a (incomplete) list of the ship names gleaned from a website that I was advised to look at by the lady at Southampton Archives."
Which vessel/s are you missing?
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A few musings on Henry Hull.
The 2 ships about which I've not been able to find anything about are as follows....
143283 18.9.20
129547 26.9.21
I was wondering whether or not these may have been the first ships he served aboard as they have the earliest dates and they are listed next to his photograph on the C.R. 10 card.
Also, I was wondering if all these dates beside the ships' numbers indicate the dates on which signed on or when he was discharged.
Regarding the "vesicle haemorrhage", I agree that, with my distant knowledge of A Level human biology, vesicles are something to do with kidneys and bladders and urinary tracts etc. Not very pleasant I know. I googled hemiotomy and nothing descriptive came up, so I think that it may be an old term for something else. otomy sounds like lobotomy & hemi like hemispheres of the brain? I may cheekily ask my G.P. when I see him next week.
My Mum has told me a few more anecdotes about him. Apparently, there were several mementoes that he'd "relieved" from the Mauretania including ashtrays, spoons, badges and plates. Unfortunately, these appear to have been sold cheaply during a house clearance that my grandad (Henry's son) had done in the 70's. Also, Henry's wife (Rose Edith Hull) was very mean to him. This included branding him with flatirons when he'd come home on leave or was tipsy. While I don't know the whole story, I can't say that I'd blame him for wanting to spend his time at sea and moving to Australia to get away from her. Mum has said (and she knew her gran extremely well) that she was mean and horrible to everyone!
I'm going to download the medal entitlement document from the national archives site. I was wondering that as I don't have a printer of my own, would I be better off to get someone else to download and print it (such as my brother).
Thanks again everyone for your help.
Gary.
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A message from my Mum.
I've shared all the information about Henry George Hull with my Mum and told her about all the assistance that I've had while researching him. Henry died 27 years before I was born so is, in theory, a distant relative. However, he's my Mum's grandad,a closer relation, and although she never met him, had been told many stories about him. She'd no idea of what he looked like, not even the year in which he'd been born, married and died. ( I had reseached his birth, marriage year and names of Henry's parents and grand parents last year).
When I was able to show Mum all the documents and the photo of him, she cried with great happiness. She'd spent about 60 years thinking about him, on and off, but was never shown any pictures or similar.
Mum has asked me to thank everyone on her behalf for all the help I've received.
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Great outcome! Esp. for your mum. :D :D
Dawn M
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Thanks Mum. Glad to help.
O/N 129547 was a passenger steamer named SCOTIAN at the time in question she was owned by Candian Pacific and her regular route was UK/Canada and return.
This thread gets more intriguing.
The vessel with the O/N 143283 was a Tug named ST ANNE. She was built for the British Admiralty but it seems she went to Canada sometime in 1919/20. and was scrapped there in 1962.
We know that HGH was involved as a British Merchant Seaman in WW1 via his WW1 medal listing. The central records of Merchant Seamen 1913-1918 have been destroyed. The only way to find out what vessels he served on in WW1 is to back track via the crew agreements of ST ANNE 1920. These should give the name of his previous vessel.
These are in Newfoundland.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=143283
So. A couple of unanswered questions
Who was ETHEL? re my post 11.
Did you find any evidence of his possible service with the Australian MN?
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Hi,
I have tried to find HGH's merchant navy records for WW2 by looking on "World War 2 Nominal roll" and Australian Maritime Safety Authority" websites. There is a Henry George Hull but he's way too young was born in Victoria and was a soldier. I have also tried to find him i lists of immigrants from 1940 to 1945, again without success.
Regarding the details of his address and next of kin given when he signed off the BRITANNIC 30/7/1940, the address of 57 Dean Road, Bitterne, Southampton is 100% right. In fact I also lived there until the age of 9 when the place burnt down! There is a small cul-de-sac of houses there now called Peppard Close. Harder to explain is why he gave his next of kin as Ethel. His wife was Rose Edith Hull, so perhaps, for some reason , he purposely gave false information or was Ethel his "bit on the side" that he apparently had in Liverpool? It would be impossible to prove though.
The info about the tug called St. Anne is interesting. My Mum reminded me that in July 1987 I did my work experience for Red Funnel Tugs in Southampton and that one of the several ships we brought in was the QE2.
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Hi Gary
"I have also tried to find him in lists of immigrants from 1940 to 1945, again without success. "
If HGH came to Australia as crew and signed off / jumped ship when he got here, he probably wouldn't come up in migrant lists at all as he wouldn't have filled in the same paperwork that migrants coming by 'normal traveller routes' would have to.
Remember also, this was wartime, when some practices probably 'went by the book' and corners were cut, etc.
With regard to Edith / Ethel, maybe one was a nickname and he forgot that fine detail when giving her name to authorities ?
Just a couple of thoughts
Dawn M.