RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: dcbnwh on Saturday 05 March 11 10:14 GMT (UK)
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An Australian researcher is trying to trace relatives of Frederick Deeming whose family originated from Warwickshire.
Fred was hanged in Melbourne in 1892.
His father was Thomas Deeming, born in Atherstone in 1824, and he may still have relatives in the area.
They are trying to determine if a skull is that of Fred or the more famous Ned Kelly.
If anyone is able to help, I can pass on the details.
Regards,
David
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I take it you want living relatives to submit to DNA testing to establish the source of the skull.
I'm afraid we don't search for living relatives.I suggest advertising in local papers or searching the "surnames" at the top of this page & see if anyone else is researching the same family,you can then send them a personal message.
jim
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Nobody seems to be searching the surname on Rootschat and articles have appeared in several newspapers, including at least one national, without success.
I wouldn't expect anyone to carry out a detailed search but perhaps the name might ring a bell somewhere.
David
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Someone on Ancestry has Thomas in their Tree and seem to have been descended from Thomas Bailey Demming 1849.
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish,
That is the right family. The tree might be one whose owner I have tried to contact but have had no reply as yet.
Regards,
David
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What a shame ::)
I have been reading up on Frederick and I must say I had never heard of him before.
Trish :)
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If it were possible to trace the Deeming family in England through to the present day, mention of any descendants who may still be living can be exchanged via PM.
From wiki:
Frederick Bailey Deeming (30 July 1853 – 23 May 1892) was an English-born Australian murderer.
Deeming was born in Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Leicestershire, England, son of Thomas Deeming, brazier, and his wife Ann, née Bailey.
It's a fascinating project David. I really hope you are successful in your search.
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Have you traced the family through the censuses? I note that in 1861 they are living in Cheshire - there are 5 other sons. :)
Are you looking for a male relative for the DNA test? Which lines would be best to try to trace? Would sons of Frederick's brothers be able to be tested?
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Frederick had loads of siblings! Mother Ann died between 1871 and 1881.
Thomas lived in Birkenhead in 1881. There are several marriages for Deeming boys in Birkenhead who may fit in with this family.
I'm sure all of this must have been already researched by anyone looking for living Deemings as the information seems fairly easy to obtain. There are a lot of Deemings in Warwickshire.
David do you happen to know what has already been researched so we don't go over old ground? :)
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Hi Ruskie,
Thank you for your messages.
I tried to post a reply earlier but it seems to have vanished.
I have managed to trace descendants from one of the brothers who moved to Cheshire but have not been able to contact them.
Fred had several Aunts and Uncles who remained in Warwickshire but I can't trace any descendants on the usual genealogy sites. Possibly none are involved with family history or don't know the link to Fred. I believe that some of the family used the surname of Bailey to distance themselves from him.
It is quite a fascinating story, albeit a gruesome one. If he still has relatives in Warwickshire, I am sure that some would like to know. Others may prefer not to know.
This link has details of the project: -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1342421/Is-skull-Ned-Kelly-Jack-Ripper-DNA-relative-solve-mystery.html
Regards,
David
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Morning all, I have been filming with an Australian TV crew in the UK in Kingston Upon Hull regarding Deeming. They are on their way to Rainhill and spending time in the area before dropping down to London.
I have been researching Frederick Bailey Deeming for several years now and have thousands of newspaper reports, magistrates papers, Hull Corporation papers, Census returns, birth, marriage and death details, and much much more.
In the past I have been in contact with relatives of Deeming and his victims, but I leave the decision up to them to contact the relative people about their infamous ancestor.
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Hello Mike,
I found an interesting picture on Ancestry.com of the Deeming family, which was posted by one of Fred's relatives.
I am not sure of the date but I think it is of Fred's uncle and his cousins. Two of them look a bit like him.
I can't post the picture because it may be copyright but please send me a personal message if you would like further details.
Regards,
David
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Hi David, I have seen the picture and it's fascinating. The Deeming family were quiet large and after the murder trial moved not only across the UK but settled across the world to get away from the stigma that he left on the family name.
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Hello, I am related to Frederick Deeming, I stumbled on this while researching more about him. My grandfather told me that we had a murderer in the family named Frederick Deeming and because of the embarassment our last name was changed from Deeming to Jones. I hope this helps.
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Hi Karliah, there are quiet a few relatives of Deeming, they are spread across the globe, how are you related?
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There is a very interesting illustration of Fred Deeming in the July issue of the 'Who do you think you are?' magazine.
If you haven't seen it or can't get hold of a copy, please send me a personal message with your email address.
David
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I have hundreds of sketches and photos of Deeming and have saved them all on a pendrive, they are taken from press reports published in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and America and some of the photos are from archival centres across the world. I have sent a message though David as I am quiet curious now.
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Having read the article I make the following comments:
1) Why not Y chromosome DNA from a male relative if there is one?
2) Personally I wouldn't place too much reliance on the Ripper story. I think every condemned murderer at that period would want to have the further notoriety conferred by the supposed link. He was very probably bragging!
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This was on news.com.au today:
http://www.news.com.au/national/bid-to-exhume-suspect-in-ned-kelly-case/story-e6frfkvr-1226108382043
Might Karliah be able to supply a dna sample? :-\
Please keep us informed of any developments with this search etc.
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Saw the report this morning, it seems they have given up on alleged relatives and gone for brothers and sisters.
Here is an article I wrote for Ripperologist earlier this year, on August 1st Hull Daily Mail featured a piece on my research into Deeming and this particular case. http://blog.casebook.org/mcebe/?p=222
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Might Karliah be able to supply a dna sample? :-\
Not if Karliah is a lady, to get a Y chromosome test you need a direct male line male.
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I was hoping that Karliah might be a 'Karl'. ;)
Just read your article Mike - really interesting. Has anyone made a film about Deeming yet?
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Not a film, but in May I had the privilage of escorting a film crew around Hull. They were producing a documentary on Deeming and had come over from Australia. They had other locations to visit in the UK and further afield and the documentary will air later this year. I gave my opinion on Deeming's time in Hull based on official files rather than press accounts.
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I was hoping that Karliah might be a 'Karl'. ;)
I know of at least one Rootschatter who has a male avatar etc. but is in fact a woman, so it's possible.
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Mike, Can you please let us know when this doco airs? I'd be interested in seeing it.
I was hoping that Karliah might be a 'Karl'. ;)
I know of at least one Rootschatter who has a male avatar etc. but is in fact a woman, so it's possible.
I have people's avatars turned off, so I didn't know Karliah had one. ;)
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(S)he doesn't but I think the argument is still valid. :)
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I have known forum users on other sites to have names that are neither here nor there.
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And some on this site too. Shan't quote any names, but some are animal names etc.
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I read your posts with interest.
I have been involved with the Ned Kelly skull investigation. I am a related to the Deeming family from Atherstone. My maternal great grandmothers father was Edward Deeming, son of Thomas Deeming. The family Bible has an inscription, "Edward Deeming from his affectionate aunt, I (but may be J or L) Bailey, March 6th 1854.
I am still trying to gather confirmations of my research, as noted here, there are a lot of Deemings from the same area.
My Gran's sister swears blind Frederick is no relation, and that "my" Deemings fled to London to get away from the stigma. My findings so far seem to be leaning to Fred being my Thomas Deeming's (b. circa 1824) brother.
I am seeking confirmation of Edward Deeming's date of birth. I see it listed on Ancestry with 7 Feb 1847, but I haven't found any records to confirm this.
Any information about the Deemings would be so wonderful. I am in Melbourne so I struggle when it comes research that would normally be a trip to the records office.
Please PM me if you can help me untie my family knots and find the truth.
And yes, I have spent some time in Fred's Melbourne Gaol cell staring at his death mask wondering, can he really be a relative??
Thanks
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The baptism for Edward is on IGI - 7 Feb 1847 - but I can't find a confirmation of his birth.
From the information on the Ancestry trees, these are some of the Deeming marriages in Birkenhead or Tranmere.
Assuming that Edward below is your ancestor, he married in the same church as Fred and so the relationship is fairly certain.
The only way to be absolutely certain would be to order the birth and marriage certificates.
DEEMING Edward - GETLEY (Gatley?) Mary J - Tranmere, St Paul, Wirral - 1875
DEEMING William Henry - BOSTOCK Catherine - Birkenhead, St Mary, Wirral - 1876
DEEMING Thomas Bailey - BATHO Susannah - Birkenhead, St Mary, Wirral - 1878
DEEMING Frederick - JAMES Marie - Tranmere, St Paul, Wirral - 1881
DEEMING Thomas - CALVLEY Martha - Tranmere, St Paul, Wirral - 1885
DEEMING Leonard - CALVERLEY Elizabeth - Lower Tranmere, St Luke, Wirral - 1896
Hope this helps,
Regards,
David
PS More detail: -
name: Frederick Deeming
event: Marriage
event date: 28 Feb 1881
event place: St. Paul, Tranmere, Cheshire, England
gender: Male
age: 27y
marital status: Single
father: Thomas Deeming
spouse: Marie James
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's father: James James
digital folder number: 4018397
name: Edward Deeming
event: Marriage
event date: 19 Jul 1875
event place: St. Paul, Tranmere, Cheshire, England
gender: Male
age: 29y
marital status: Single
father: Thomas Deeming
spouse: Mary Jane Getley
spouse's marital status: Single
spouse's father: Thomas Getley
digital folder number: 4018397
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Thanks David,
The P.S is brilliant.
I have My GGrandmas birth cert, so I can confirm it is Mary Jane Getley.
Thanks again for the info, it's a great help.
Soozi
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hi everyone
my name is nicky deeming and i was born in nuneaton and have a large family around atherstone and surrounding areas, recently found out about fredrick deeming and his past and i am very interested to see if i am relaited. if anyone can help me or give me advice on the matter i would greatly appreciate it. pm me for my email address thanks
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Welcome to rootschat Nick. :)
You need to make 3 posts before the PM system is activated (this is to prevent spam), so reply a couple more times and anyone who wishes to contact you via PM will be able to do so.
Have you traced any of your family history?
I'm sure one of the experts will be along to try to work out if, and where, you might fit into this family. ;)
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Nick,
If you are able to make another two posts, it might be best to send a pm to mikecovell of some previous posts. I think he may be the most up-to-date on the project.
I only got involved by accident but have since found out that my wife's 3 x great uncle lived at the end of the street where Fred was born and one of his children was about the same age.
Also, a distant cousin wrote a history of St Paul's church, Tranmere, where Fred and some of his siblings were married. By coincidence, the church bell was made in Whitechapel, close to where Fred claimed to have carried out the Ripper murders.
David
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Morning all, There were two Deeming families in the region, the Deeming family of Atherstone was not related to the Frederick Bailey Deeming clan. I searched and researched both families to see if there was a link, and found out that the Deeming family of Atherstone had really bad luck. In the 1800's, the exact date is in my notes, three of the male Deeming's were involved in mining accidents. None were fatal, but they did involve falling into open cast mines!
I am currently working on several projects pertaining to Frederick Bailey Deeming, including several books, and have a massive collection of material pertaining to him, his family, and those that were affected by him throughout life and in death.
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I am slightly puzzled by your statement about the origins of the Deeming family. The published family trees vary but all agree that his parents came from Atherstone and grandparents from either Bentley or Mancetter.
Although there it unlikely that everybody with the same name in the area is related, it would be possible for someone from nearby Nuneaton to be a relative.
If of any interest, I have some pictures of the streets in Tranmere where the Deemings lived in 1851-71. Also contemporary pictures of the church where Fred and some of his siblings married, together with a photograph of the vicar who probably conducted the service.
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I have traced Ann Bailey family back through parish registers to the 1600's. I have traced Thomas Deeming and his family back to the early 1600's, and whilst Thomas's family resided in Atherstone briefly, they are of no connection to the Deeming family of Atherstone, who were a different clan of Deeming's.
This is apparant as the Atherstone Deeming's were the subject of several newspaper stories pubished in the Lecister Chronicle and Leicstershire Mercury in the 1870's, couple with the official testimonies of members of the Deeming family at both the Rainhill inquest, and the Windsor inquest.
I have searched both families back to the 1600's and have the family trees composited of birth, marriage, death, christening, burial, wills and probate, criminal, parish, poor law, census, trade directories, marriage banns, immigration, emigration, military records, and much much more and there is no connection between the two other than they shared the same surname and for a brief spell resided in the same district.
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Frederick Deeming born Birkenhead in 1853
1881 setup home in lodgings in Woolloomooloo
Nasty Man
Sylvia
i have a book called Murder Almanac 150 years of chilling crime
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Mike,
It doesn't matter very much to me but it sounds as though many people have the wrong line and may need to correct it.
You may not wish to divulge all of your research but where roughly did the family come from? Most seem to originate in the Warwickshire area or just over the border.
David
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As far as I can trace both families back they are in Warwickshire. Some of the information I have gleaned will be featured in a new documentary on Deeming to air later in the year, but the vast bulk of it is being saved for a book.
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Thanks Mike,
You have probably seen this but it is a picture of the Pub at the end of Queens Place where the Deemings lived in 1861. My grandparents lived just down the road in Rock Ferry.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/liverpoolsuburbia/3133387385/
You can still see the street name on the pub wall on Google Streetview.
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Thanks for sharing. I have passed through Rainhill once or twice and got some wonderful old photos that were taken in 1892 for the Rainhill Murder trial. Copyright prevents me from posting, but they feature Dinham Villa, the street, the church were Marie and the four children were buried and some other general shots of the district.
I have been through to Beverley on several occasions and got photos etc of where Helen Matheson resided and where her mother worked. Whilst in Beverley it was also written that Deeming had met and proposed to another woman who owned a pub, so I have visited there too.
I have hundreds of images of the locations in Hull, Portsmouth, Great Yarmouth, and other places associated with Deeming, and a book case full of books, journals, articles, official files and penny dreadfuls on him and his crimes.
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Well after reading the past few posts it seems like I wouldn't be related, still a very interesting subject and it's made me want to trace my family
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There are Deeming family members across the globe too Nick, I have spoke with family members in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and even some in Canada.
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I thought the family was all in my local area, very interesting. I find frederick deeming very interesting as alot of stuff I have read says he was born in ashby de la zouch and I am living in measham 4 miles away, I have got somebody working on my families past just out of curiosity and I am sure I will be continuing my interest in Frederick
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There are quiet a few projects on the way which will see him back in the spotlight.
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If you could keep me posted that would be great
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Will do.
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Hello Everyone,
Thanks for the fantastic posts on here about the infamous and 'orrible Fred Deeming. Thanks go especially to Mike Covell for his incredibly diligent and painstaking work - fascinating stuff!
Now, my great grandfather was James Patrick Deeming, born in Ashby de la Zouch in 1843 and died 1896 (though I'm still not sure if this date of death refers to the correct person - maybe the Death Certificate would reveal all).
This may be wishful thinking (if one really wants to be related morbidly to a terrible murderer), but my great grandpappy being born in the same town as Fred Deeming, in the same sort of era, makes it highly likely that there must be a link somewhere between them - but none found yet.
Any clues, please? - anyone?
Thanks.
Best wishes.
Dave Dee :)
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Hi maidmarianoop - thanks for the PM. Can't reply yet, I think, cos I'm a newbie, so I'm just posting a couple more "virtual" replies, to see if PM can be activated for me. Here goes, one more to follow.
Dave. :)
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Second PM-activation message, maidmarionoop. With any luck, I may be able to reply to your PM now. Let's try!
ATB.
Dave. :)
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this is the 1st page
sylvia
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this is the 1st page
sylvia
Thanks for your picture post, Sylvia. Where did this actually come from?
BTW, in my originating post, I made it seem as though Fred Deeming had been born in Ashby de la Zouch, but according to the article in your picture, Birkenhead was his birthplace, wasn't it? The 1861 Census has him as being born in Ashby. Need to get a Birth Certificate for him, I suppose, assuming it doesn't pre-date the GRO records. I can't imagine them getting Fred's birthplace wrong for that article, can you?
Anyway, wherever he was born, he was living in Ashby at the same time as my Great Grandfather James Patrick Deeming's birth in the same place. I'm now wondering why Fred Deeming's family happened to be in Ashby de la Zouch at that time. Will we ever be able to find out?
Incidentally, did you know that there used to be a waxwork of Frederick Deeming in the Chamber of Horrors at Madame Tussaud's, in London? My father took me to see him when I was a small kid. Now, the strange thing was, I grew up believing his Christian name was actually Francis, and when I first went online, I started looking for him under that. Obviously, I soon discovered the mistake. A year or so ago, a friend of mine lent me an old booklet he fortuitously had from Madame Tussaud's, with a mini-history of the place, and lo and behold! - Deeming was listed in there, sure enough, as "Francis Deeming" - so my childhood memory had been correct after all! Experience has told me that childhood memories are often essentially accurate. I've e-mailed Madame Tussaud's many times about this, have received not one human response, even though the auto-replies affirmed receipts of my enquiries. Maybe some of you stalwarts out there could could try! :)
ATB, Dave.
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From the 1851 census, Thomas Deeming, the father of Frederick, was living in Ashby and his youngest son had been born in Atherstone in 1848. This means that they had moved there just before 1851, by which time, Samuel had moved to Leicester. If they had crossed paths, it was only briefly.
Samuel was much older than Thomas and born in Wilnecote. Thomas was about 34 years younger and born in Atherstone. The name and birth place of Thomas's father differ on the published trees but none mention Wilnecote. Therefore, it seems unlikely that they were close relatives but from roughly the same geographical area and so could have a common ancestor further back in time.
Frederick was definitely born in Ashby, where the birth was registered in Jul-Sep 1853.
Re the death of James in 1896, the family was living in Willenhall, near Wolverhampton, in 1891 and also in 1901, by which time James had died. The death registered in Wolverhampton district in Jul-Sep 1896 would seem to match that of your great grandfather.
Regards,
David
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From the 1851 census, Thomas Deeming, the father of Frederick, was living in Ashby and his youngest son had been born in Atherstone in 1848.....etc......etc......etc......
......etc......Re the death of James in 1896...the death registered in Wolverhampton district in Jul-Sep 1896 would seem to match that of your great grandfather.
Regards,
David
Many thanks for your input, David, which all makes sense. I agree that if there is any connection between my line and that of Frederick's, then it must go a long way back, probably before all available records. All interesting speculative stuff, though, isn't it?
I've just realised that although I possess a GRO certificate of my Great Grandfather James' birth, I don't have one for his death, so you've inspired me to order that today from the GRO - so I thank you for that.
Many thanks, and best wishes.
Dave. <-------- common ol' name, innit? Hehe. ;)
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http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-deeming.html
have you seen this
sylvia
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http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-deeming.html
have you seen this
sylvia
Thanks for this great post, Sylvia. Tons of information on there! More stuff to be saved to my computer, methinks.
ATB, Dave. :)
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Does anyone know if Frederick Deeming was baptised? Can't seem to find evidence of it anywhere so far. His brother Thomas Bailey was baptised on 1 April 1849. so his parents must've believed in such things. Haven't checked yet on the rest of the family, though.
Ta.
Dave.
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hi everyone
my name is nicky deeming and i was born in nuneaton and have a large family around atherstone and surrounding areas, recently found out about fredrick deeming and his past and i am very interested to see if i am relaited. if anyone can help me or give me advice on the matter i would greatly appreciate it. pm me for my email address thanks
Further to Nickd's post, my mothers maiden name was Deeming, however, that link came from Polesworth (also Warks.) about 1850. The family lived in Atherstone from then on, but I cannot find a connection to this thread.
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The Newspaper Archive has a lot on Fred Deeming including a reference to his childhood in Ashby: -
"...Deeming was known, and is now remembered by them (the firm). It is forty years since, and Deeming's stated age confirms Messrs. J. and E. Ison's recollections of the boy playing in Asbby Market Street. His (Deeming's) mother was stated to have ..."
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
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The Newspaper Archive has a lot on Fred Deeming including a reference to his childhood in Ashby, etc........
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
Thanks for the post, David. Opinions seem to vary about the British Newspaper Archive...here's a blog on the subject:-
http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/2011/11/the-british-newspaper-archive-launches/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=fmp_email&utm_term=reg&utm_content=301111&utm_campaign=newsletter301111
ATB.
Dave Dee.
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My observation on the pricing of access to the British Newspapers is that sooner or later there will be a straw that breaks the camel's back. This could be the straw for subscription services.
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Hi,
I stumbled across this this morning after only just finding out recently that I am in fact descendant from the Deeming family. My great grandfather changed his name to Thomas Edward Getley (Son of Mary Jane Getley). My research points to Edward Deeming being the son of Thomas Deeming and Ann Bailey and the brother of Frederick Bailey Deeming.
From what I can gather from Mike Covell's very informative posts this is in fact incorrect....
If so can someone shed some light on this for me. Obviously considering the events surrounding Frederick Bailey Deeming I can understand that many Deeming's information became purposely skewed.
Thanks in advance
Andrew
(I will write a couple more posts so that you can PM me if you wish)
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Your information would seem to be correct.
Most of the Deeming records in Tranmere are now on Findmypast. They are well worth having because the images of the registers have signatures in their own hands, unlike certificates from the GRO.
The relevant baptism was at St Catherine's, Tranmere on 17th November 1878. Three children were baptized on the same day:-
Thomas Edward, Frederick William and Benjamin Getley.
Parents - Edward and Mary Jane Deeming. Edward was a whitesmith of 1 Church Road
Regards,
David
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On 3rd February 1895, Thomas Edward Deeming, a seaman, son of Edward Deeming, an engineer, married Alice Mary Martin in Southwark.
Assuming that he is the same person, he hasn't changed his name at that time.
I can't find Thomas on the later censuses but Alice is visiting a James Brent in Camberwell in 1901, the area where Edward is living.
There is a probable death for Alice in Jan-Mar 1911.
Three of Edward's other children all married as Deeming.
There is a son, Edward James, baptized on 15th Jan 1899 but died in 1901. Thomas is a Busman of 29 Stafford Street.
David
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On 3rd February 1895, Thomas Edward Deeming, a seaman, son of Edward Deeming, an engineer, married Alice Mary Martin in Southwark.
Assuming that he is the same person, he hasn't changed his name at that time.
I can't find Thomas on the later censuses but Alice is visiting a James Brent in Camberwell in 1901, the area where Edward is living.
There is a probable death for Alice in Jan-Mar 1911.
Three of Edward's other children all married as Deeming.
There is a son, Edward James, baptized on 15th Jan 1899 but died in 1901. Thomas is a Busman of 29 Stafford Street.
David
Thanks David but you will find no records as my great grandfather was born Thomas Deeming but changed his name to Edward Arthur Secourable and later to Thomas Arthur Edward Getley none of which is in any records... marriage/census or otherwise. He married Emily Beatrice Hallet in 1902 (Of the Halletts of Axmouth). My grandfather was born in 1902 (Theodore Hothersall Getley) and his two brothers were born in 1899 and 1901 (Edward Arthur Hothersall Secourable and Thomas Alston Hothersall Getley) so I believe that this is a very different person to the one you mention
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Hi Andrew,
Since my last posting, I had found your tree on Ancestry and Edward Secourable on the 1901 census.
His birth matches that of Thomas Edward Deeming but, strangely, there is no birth registered for Deeming, Getley or Secourable in Liverpool in 1876.
Given the names that he used, you would imagine that he was the same person, except that there is a marriage for Thomas Edward Deeming.
This would suggest that they are two different people unless Thomas lead a double life, changing his name to conceal his identity.
He used the name Frank Secourable when he married in 1899. It would be interesting to see his signature on the register.
I notice that their first child had the surname of Secourable and the next two were Getley. Could this mean that they had different fathers, the second appearing after 1901? It seems strange that, if the father changed his surname, he didn't change that of his first son
According to the 1911 census, Emily married again c1909 but I can't find the record.
Quite a mystery.
Will be in touch re your personal message.
David.
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Hi!
I am Adrian Getley(b1967), my Father is Lawrence Hallet Getley(b1936), his Father Thomas Alston Hothersall Getley(b1902). I'm new to this site and have been looking into wether we are related to Frederick Bailey Deeming. I've read many interesting posts relating to the subject and there are various members that I appear to be related to but don't actually know! I would be very interested in getting in contact with them!
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Hi!
I'm new to this amazing site and there appear to be several people whom I am related to but don't actually know! I would be very much interested in getting in touch with "sooziwoozi". I am Adrian Getley, my Father's Father was Thomas Alston Hothersall Getley born 1902.
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This is my third post so hopefully I'll be able to PM people!