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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: 092086 on Friday 04 March 11 01:35 GMT (UK)
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I am doing research on my 2nd great grandfather, Arthur Simmons, who happens to be the only "difficult" member of my family tree.
The 1881 England Census lists his birth as 1873 in Chigwell, Essex, with George and Dora (Turner) listed as his parents.
However, George also had another marriage, as I found out, to "Charity Waller" who died in 1874, a year after Arthur was born.
Also, in Arthur's marriage record later on in Canada, he is listing his mother as Dora Turner.
Could it be perhaps that Arthur's real mother was Charity but since Charity died when he was young he thought of Dora as his mother?
It gets even more confusing when I dig further back into his father, George Edward's past. His obituary lists him as having 22 children total - 11 with Dora and 11 with Charity. After plugging various pieces of information into Family Tree Maker, I found about 30 trees with all sorts of great uncles/aunts of mine, and a LOT of conflicting information.
What is also interesting is that almost none of these trees list my 2nd great grandfather, Arthur, in them. It looks like he never even existed out of 22 children. Was he the black sheep? After all, he migrated to Canada around 1892, alone.
What is causing me the most grief is that George appeared to travel around a lot, with children being born in Virginia, USA and Essex, England, and them moving back and forth, with George eventually dying in Utah.
What I would like to know is if there are any descendants of George & Dora/Charity on this board who would be able to help me out with information.
Thanks for your consideration.
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First of all I looked at the 1881 census for George and Dora :) with Arthur age 8 and his siblings. Then I found them again in 1871 still in Chigwell essex as in 1881 and George born Northale Buckinghamshire, still a farmer of 62 acres. Charles age 9 born Alleghenny IO US and Annie K age 6 born Pittsburgh then George A age 4 Dora M 2 and Amy 7months were born in Chigwell. So George and Dora were out of UK sometime before 1862 and back to Chigwell again by 1867.
Then I looked for Charity Simmons death in 1874 and it was in Sussex. So I went looking for her and husband George Simmons in 1871 RG10/1063/77/14 Living at Newlands Cottage Keymer Sussex.
George 43 ag lab born Keymer SussexCharity 42 born Clayton Sussex
Elizabeth 19 Clayton, Joseph 16 Keymer, Sarah 14 Keymer, Charity 11 Keymer, George 9 Keymer
Mary 7 Clayton.
Comparing when George and Dora's children were born and when the younger children of George and Charity were born it seems impossible for them to be the same George. George 9 and especially Mary 6 were born in the period when George and Dora's son Charles and dau Annie were being born in US.
Do I have the right families here? Or am I completely on the wrong track?
Do you have George's death certificate. Can you post his obit in full?
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Marriage of George and Charity Cuckfield Sussex Sept 1/4 1850 vol 7 page 481.
Both the bride and groom are entered twice with different spelling od their names.
George Simmonds and George Simmons. Charity Walder and Charity Walter.
Clayton in Sussex and Chigwell in Essex are only about 75 miles apart so it is possible that George was keeping two families going at the one time but how to father a child in England whilst fathering one in US?
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Here's George's Obituary:
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Married Charity Waller Dec 11 1849 Keymer England she died Aug 1, 1874 in Cliftenville England.
The Wasatch Wave Newspaper May 16, 1902
Charleston
As stated, in last week's Wave George E. Simmons died at his home in Charleston Wednesday May 7th at the advanced age of 74. The cause of his death was general debility. He has been in ill health for two years and has been a confirmed invaled for the past six months. Although his suffering at times was intense yet he clang to life with a tenacity that was remarkable. All that loving hands could do was done in his behalf and although he will be missed by those near and dear to him they have the satisfaction of knowing they did their duty by him in every respect.
George E. Simmons was born Jan. 19th, 1828 in Clayton, Sussex County, England. He was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day-Saints September 19, 1852. On Dec. 11, 1879 he married Charity Walter, I assume this was a typo and actually 1869 who died August 1st 1874. Left thus with a large family of children, he was married Nov. 27, 1885 to Dora Turner by whom he also had eleven children. It will thus be seen he was the father of 22 children nine of whom survive him.
In the old country, as well as in this, he was a great student of the scriptures and a preacher of righteousness. Many of his friends here will remember his counsels for good, years after his body has moldered to dust. His everyday life was an example for any one to follow. He held the office of high priest in the Church until his death. As a farmer he was a model: his farms were always laid out in the neatest possible style. His straight rows of peas often half a mile in length and sometimes through very stony ground, were a marvel to the beholder.
The funeral services were held in the meeting house at 2 p.m. on May 9th. The coffin and decorations were all pure white. The floral offerings were beautiful. The speakers were Patriarch Murdock, bishop Daybell, President Murdock and Emanuel Richman. Each of the speakers eulogized the deceased and exhorted all to follow his good example.
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Also,
1881 England Census
George Simmons 52
Dora Simmons 39
Charles W. Simmons 19 Arthur named his son Charles Alfred
George A. Simmons 14 Arthur named his son George Arthur
Dora M. Simmons 12 Arthur named his daughter Dora Margaret
Arthur Simmons 8
Ethel M. Simmons 5
Alfred Simmons 4
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If by any chance these are both the same people, I am having trouble understanding how one can travel back and forth between England and USA and afford 11 children back in the 1860s, being just a humble farmer and all.
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Goerge and Dora are still on the 1891 census RG12/1361/69/18
The Old farm Chigwell
George Simmons 62 farmer Northall Bucks
Dora 50 Eddlesborough Bucks
Ethel M 15 Chigwell
Alfred 14 Chigwell
Ernest 9 Chigwell
Have you any dates of sailing for George Simmons from Sussex going to the US.
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Goerge and Dora are still on the 1891 census RG12/1361/69/18
The Old farm Chigwell
George Simmons 62 farmer Northall Bucks
Dora 50 Eddlesborough Bucks
Ethel M 15 Chigwell
Alfred 14 Chigwell
Ernest 9 Chigwell
Have you any dates of sailing for George Simmons from Sussex going to the US.
In some of the family trees I've found:
Spouse & Children
Dora Turner 1852 – 1904
Charles W Simmons 1862
Annie Kate Simmons 1864 – 1907
George A Simmons 1867 –
Dora M Simmons 1869 –
Amy Simmons 1871 –
Arthur Simmons 1873 –
Rose Louisa Agnes Simmons 1875 – 1955
Alice Dora Simmons 1876 – 1900
Ethel M Simmons 1876 –
Alfred Simmons 1877 –
Joseph Benjamin Simmons 1878 – 1952
John William Simmons 1880 – 1961
Maud Bell Simmons 1882 – 1962
Ernest Simmons 1882 –
Lilly May Simmons 1885 – 1892
Stephen Andrew Simmons 1886 – 1961 (born in Utah, USA)
Mariam Bertha Simmons 1889 – 1960 (born in Utah, USA)
Jabes Ray Simmons 1892 – 1892 (born in Utah, USA)
Fellie Simmons 1894 – 1894 (born in Utah, USA)
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This image is supposedly George E. Simmons which is attached to many of the family trees.
I also remember this picture distinctly as it was once in one of my grandma's photo albums.
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1891 RG13/1657/97/50
Woodman Road Gt Warley
George simmons 72 gardener domestic born northall Bucks
Dora 60 Northchurch HERTFORDSHIRE (changed her mind as to where she was born)
Ernest 19 Cycle maker Chigwell
Harold S Stephens Grandson 8 Warley essex.
So a George Simmons died in Charleston May 1902 age 74. If these two george's were one and the same man he left England sometime after the 1901 census to die in the US 12 months later.
I cannot find a marriage of a George Simmons to a Dora turner at any time in the uk on FreeBMD so it looks as if they may have married in the US before 1862 and charles'birth.
I am of the opinion that these are two separate families but surely someone with knowledge of the family gave the info for the obit.
George husband of Charity I can't find as yet in the 1881 census so did he take his family to US after Charity's death\?
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A lot of questions.
I did however, take this out of a spreadsheet I found on Google.
Mar M George Charity WALLER 11 Aug 1850 @ Keymer
Mar F Elizabeth George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 17 Feb 1851 @ Clayton
Bir F Fannie George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 14 Apr 1852 @ Brighten
Mar M Joseph B. George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 5 May 1854 @Clayton Keymer
Mar M Jesse George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 15 Dec 1855 @ Clayton Keymer
Bir F Sarah Ann George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 14 Dec 1856 @ Clayton Keymer
Mar F Ellen George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 6 Mar 1859 @ Keymer
Mar F Charity George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 5 Apr 1860 @ Keymer
Mar M George William George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER 31 May 1861 @ Keymer
Chr F Mary Jane George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 26 Mar 1863 @ Clayton
Mar F Carolina George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 10 Mar 1865 @ Clayton
Mar F Harriet George Edward SIMMONS Charity WALLER --- 10 Mar 1865
Mar M George Dora TURNER 28 Dec 1874
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Children of Dora according to the censuses. Doesn't mean there werent some who were born and died between the censuses.
Charles W 1862 US
Annie K 1865 US
George A 1867 UK
Dora M 1869 UK
Arthur 1873 UK
Ethel M 1876 UK
Amy 1870 UK
Alfred 1877 UK
Ernest 1882 UK
I have to leave this for a while but I will come back to it.
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Children of Dora according to the censuses. Doesn't mean there werent some who were born and died between the censuses.
Charles W 1862 US
Annie K 1865 US
George A 1867 UK
Dora M 1869 UK
Arthur 1873 UK
Ethel M 1876 UK
Amy 1870 UK
Alfred 1877 UK
Ernest 1882 UK
I have to leave this for a while but I will come back to it.
Appreciate it
This is also interesting
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=37369269
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Death reg for George Simmons March 1/4 1907 Epping vol 4a page 284 Age at death 77.
Epping covers Chigwell district which is where your Simmons family lived for decades.
Dora is a widow and living with her son Alfred in the 1911 census.
What puzzles me is who the heck gave the information for the obit in 1902? It seems completely out of wack with the info on the censuses and some of the dates are completely wrong. They have Dora as dying in 1904 when she is with her son in 1911.
Your George and Doris only seem to have been in US in the early 1860's. I will see if I can find any travel records for them.
This needs sorting big time.
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Censuses and children for george Simmons and Charity in Sussex give these children
1851 HO107/1642/5231/1
Stubbs House Clayton
George ag lab and Charity both 22 both born Clayton plus first child Elizabeth 1 month old
1861
Gurrs Cottage Newland Keymer
George Simmons 33 ag lab
Charity 32
Elizabeth 9
Joseph 6
Jesse 5
Sarah A 4
Ellen 2
Charity 1
All born Keymer
By 1871 RG10/1063/77/14two more children George born 1862 and Mary 1864
need to cross check these with the ones given in the trees. I think they are grabbing anyone they can find to put in their tree. :)
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This is interesting. I took a look on family search.org beta search for the Stephen Andrew Simmons born 1886 Utah. He came up in the 1900 USA census in Charleston county Wallsburg with his parents.
George C (transcribed as C but s/be E) Simmons age 72 gardener born England Jan 1828 parents English. married to present wife 25 years 11 children to this marriage 7 living.
Dora wife born in England April 1855 age 45 both parenjts English
John W born Nov 1880 Utah age 19
Maud B dau born Aug 1882 Utah age 17
Stephen Nov 1886 Utah age 13
Bertha M dau born March 1889 Utah
J William Simmons, grandson born Jan 1888 age 12 Utah.
George gives his year of immigration to the US as 1876 which is why I can't find them in 1881 uk. Now he says he and Dora have been married 25 years so that was 1875 so it was before going to US but it is not Dora born 1841 and married to George Simmons in Essex as this Dora in Utah was born in 1855. Another reason it can't be Dora born 1841 is because she was in England in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911.
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This looks like Charity born 1860 Sussex in Utah in 1880 US census
Charity Simmons Single 20 servant with the Needham family
Living at Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah
Born 1860 England
Father and mother both born England
I can;t find a marriage for a George Simmons to a Dora Turner in England 1874-76. There is a birth of a Dora Turner in Yorkshire in 1855 but whether she is the one who married George from Sussex.......?
I do not think this family has anything to do with yours at this stage, too many inconsistencies that haven't been accounted for.
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Can't locate Charles W 1862 after 1881 census.
1881 RG11/837/59/15 Annie K born 1865 with the Bull family as a servant. Annie is saying she was born Chigwell which may be how she remembers it as she was very young when she came back from US.
Dora Marian born 1869 marriage to Thomas Stephens Epping reg Dist. Sept 1/4 1889 4a/282.
Only a quick look but can't find George A born 1867 after 1881
In 1891 the only Arthur born c1873 I can see at the moment is a blacksmith age 19 born Romford essex (Romford is about 7 miles from Chigwell) so is possible. This Arthur is a lodger with John and Sarah Hempstead at Woodford Bridge.
Ethel M born 1876 is still with her parents so are Alfred 14 and Ernest 9
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Appreciate all your help, Crisane.
I wouldn't venture past 1881 in the England Census for Arthur as he migrated to Canada in 1890.
Whats really frustrating is what you already mentioned - people who are adding anyone and everyone into their family trees. What's even more interesting is the obituary and the many inconsistencies we are are finding with it. I wonder what kind of drugs the writer was on?
It really does beg the question though whether or not George indeed did have multiple families abroad and how many others may have existed that I haven't found yet.
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Hi
To help sort out the maiden name of the Dora married to George Simmons and in every census living in Chigwell Essex I would buy the birth certificate of one of the other children
Rhis one looks good.
George Alfred Simmons March 1/4 1867 reg district Epping vol 4a page 82. That will give the maiden name of his mother and see if it is a Dora Turner or someone else but as I have said before I can't see how these are the same families.
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Sorry, I'm a little new to this - where can I purchase a copy of the birth certificate?
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This is FreeBMD where you can search for births deaths and marriages from Sept quarter 1837 onwards.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Below is the site where you order the certs online using the exact spellings for the name that you see on FreeBMD even though sometimes it is incorrect.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
It is maddening not to be able to find a marriage reg for either of the George Simmons marriages to Dora
The only marriage reg is that of George and Charity.
Marriages Sep 1850
Simmonds George or George Simmons Charity Walder or Charity Walter Cuckfield vol 7 page 481 but this is no use to you if it is not your George.
I am going to do a timeline of the children born to these two couples just to clarify that it is most unlikey they are the same couple.
Actually the death reg's for Dora and George that I found earlier would be of more help to you as this is likely to be your line. But first things first, order the birth reg for George A.
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Births Mar 1873
SIMMONS Arthur Epping 4a 117
The district Epping is in the county of Essex; information about it can be found here.
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I'm fairly certain this is my Arthur Simmons because in 3 Canadian Censuses as well as his marriage certificate he lists his birth as January 1873 - Essex. I'll go ahead and order it.
On Arthur's marriage certificate he also lists his parents as George Simmons and Dora Webster.
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Births Mar 1873
SIMMONS Arthur Epping 4a 117
The district Epping is in the county of Essex; information about it can be found here.
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I'm fairly certain this is my Arthur Simmons because in 3 Canadian Censuses as well as his marriage certificate he lists his birth as January 1873 - Essex. I'll go ahead and order it.
On Arthur's marriage certificate he also lists his parents as George Simmons and Dora Webster.
Hi
In your first post you said Arthur had his mother as Dora Turner on his marriage cert. But if it is Dora Webster then I would forget about the other George E Simmons completely because the only link I was working on was Arthur's marriage cert with mother as Dorah Turner.
The birth cert for Arthur will help confirm his mother's maiden name. I still can't find a marriage for a Dora Webster and George Simmons in UK at anytime.
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Births Mar 1873
SIMMONS Arthur Epping 4a 117
The district Epping is in the county of Essex; information about it can be found here.
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I'm fairly certain this is my Arthur Simmons because in 3 Canadian Censuses as well as his marriage certificate he lists his birth as January 1873 - Essex. I'll go ahead and order it.
On Arthur's marriage certificate he also lists his parents as George Simmons and Dora Webster.
Hi
In your first post you said Arthur had his mother as Dora Turner on his marriage cert. But if it is Dora Webster then I would forget about the other George E Simmons completely because the only link I was working on was Arthur's marriage cert with mother as Dorah Turner.
The birth cert for Arthur will help confirm his mother's maiden name. I still can't find a marriage for a Dora Webster and George Simmons in UK at anytime.
Sorry I should have been more clear
The marriage certificate lists it as WEBSTER. The only link I have of the TURNER surname is what I've found in other family trees, most of which include the 22 children
Its unfortunate people throw as many names as they can into a tree without concrete data as it throws others off on a wild goose chase!
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Hi again
Great! Now you can ignore the trees for George Simmons/Charity and Dora Turner, they are nothing to do with your family. :)
The birth certificate will confirm Arthur's mother's maiden name, his father's name and occupation.
Unfortunately at the moment there is the problem of your George and Dora's marriage which using the names Simmonds/ Simmons and Webster I can't find in the UK! Is there any chance they went to Canada separately, married over there, then returned to UK with their two oldest children?
In the 1861, '71', '81 and 91 census Dora says she was born Eddlesborough Buckinghamshire but in 1901 she says Northchurch Hertfordshire and in 1911 it is Dunstable Bedfordshire. I will take a look at google maps and see how far apart these places are.
George is consistent with his birthplace.
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Arthur is with his parents George and Dora in the 1881 England Census, but:
(http://image1.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2010/158/24054576_127602755790.jpg)
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What's interesting is George allegedly later resided in Utah - a nice haven for polygamists.
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Found from another family tree. Note the years and birthplaces.
Children of George Edwards SIMMONS Immigrant & Pioneer and Dora TURNER Immigrant & Pioneer are:
19 i. Rose Louisa Agnes SIMMONS was born 11 Sep 1875 in , Brighton, Sussex, England, and died 1 May 1955 in Nampa, Canyon, Idaho.
20 ii. Alice Dora SIMMONS was born 27 Nov 1876 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 17 Dec 1900 in Park City, Summit, Utah.
21 iii. Joseph Benjamin SIMMONS was born 30 Oct 1878 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 7 Apr 1952 in Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah.
22 iv. John William SIMMONS was born 11 Nov 1880 in Bountiful, Davis, Utah, and died 11 Jun 1961 in Heber City, Wasatch, UT.
23 v. Maud Bell SIMMONS was born 2 Aug 1882 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 8 Nov 1962 in Ogden, Weber, UT.
24 vi. Lilly May SIMMONS was born 6 Jan 1885 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 3 Jun 1892.
25 vii. Stephen Andrew SIMMONS was born 16 Nov 1886 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, was christened 6 Jan 1887, and died 18 May 1961 in Phoenix, Maricopa, AZ.
+ 26 viii. Miriam Bertha SIMMONS was born 23 Mar 1889 in charleston wasatch utah, was christened 2 May 1889 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Apr 1960 in Provo Utah.
27 ix. Jabes Ray SIMMONS (Twin) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Oct 1892.
28 x. Son SIMMONS Twin (Stillborn) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 2 Jun 1892.
29 xi. Fillie SIMMONS (Stillborn) was born 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah.
+ 30 xii. Miriam Bertha SIMMONS was born 23 Mar 1889 in charleston wasatch utah, and died 5 Apr 1960 in Provo Utah.
31 xiii. Jabes Ray SIMMONS (Twin) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Oct 1892.
32 xiv. Son SIMMONS Twin (Stillborn) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 2 Jun 1892.
33 xv. Fillie SIMMONS (Stillborn) was born 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah.
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I'm sorry but I think I am beginning to lose the plot here. The newspaper cutting is for the son of George Simmons and Dora Turner and the list of children are also for George Simmons/Charity and Dora Turner who are nothing to do with your Arthur whatsoever. This is why they do not have Arthur in their tree, they are not the parents and siblings of Arthur Simmons born in Essex county.
George E Simmons and Charity were born and lived in Sussex County until the 1880's. The only thing they have in common is their names.
So unfortunately all the paperwork you have collected on the family of George E Simmons
and Dora Turner is nothing to do with your family. They are a completely different family, no connection to yours.
Your George and Dora came back from the US with two children born in Pennsylvania and then remained in Chigwell whilst having more children including Arthur.
George, husband of Charity moved to the US after Charity's death and before the 1881 UK census and stayed there until his death in 1902. He married Dora Turner a much younger woman and had more children to her.
George E Simmons may have led an interesting life and their is certainly plenty of info on he and his family but Arthur is not part of their family.
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Also note that 5 of the children appear on this list twice.
Found from another family tree. Note the years and birthplaces.
Children of George Edwards SIMMONS Immigrant & Pioneer and Dora TURNER Immigrant & Pioneer are:
19 i. Rose Louisa Agnes SIMMONS was born 11 Sep 1875 in , Brighton, Sussex, England, and died 1 May 1955 in Nampa, Canyon, Idaho.
20 ii. Alice Dora SIMMONS was born 27 Nov 1876 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 17 Dec 1900 in Park City, Summit, Utah.
21 iii. Joseph Benjamin SIMMONS was born 30 Oct 1878 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 7 Apr 1952 in Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah.
22 iv. John William SIMMONS was born 11 Nov 1880 in Bountiful, Davis, Utah, and died 11 Jun 1961 in Heber City, Wasatch, UT.
23 v. Maud Bell SIMMONS was born 2 Aug 1882 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 8 Nov 1962 in Ogden, Weber, UT.
24 vi. Lilly May SIMMONS was born 6 Jan 1885 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 3 Jun 1892.
25 vii. Stephen Andrew SIMMONS was born 16 Nov 1886 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, was christened 6 Jan 1887, and died 18 May 1961 in Phoenix, Maricopa, AZ.
+ 26 viii. Miriam Bertha SIMMONS was born 23 Mar 1889 in charleston wasatch utah, was christened 2 May 1889 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Apr 1960 in Provo Utah.
27 ix. Jabes Ray SIMMONS (Twin) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Oct 1892.
28 x. Son SIMMONS Twin (Stillborn) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 2 Jun 1892.
29 xi. Fillie SIMMONS (Stillborn) was born 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah.
+ 30 xii. Miriam Bertha SIMMONS was born 23 Mar 1889 in charleston wasatch utah, and died 5 Apr 1960 in Provo Utah.
31 xiii. Jabes Ray SIMMONS (Twin) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 5 Oct 1892.
32 xiv. Son SIMMONS Twin (Stillborn) was born 2 Jun 1892 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 2 Jun 1892.
33 xv. Fillie SIMMONS (Stillborn) was born 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah, and died 16 Oct 1894 in Charleston, Wasatch, Utah.
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Hi
what is needed now is to find the marriage of George Simmons and Dora Webster(?) born Buckinghamshire because without it you can't get further back with any certainty.
Also proof of George and Dora's journeys to and from US prior to 1867.
Do you have a record of Arthur's journey to Canada?
Then of course what happened to Arthur's siblings?
Arthur's birth cert will tell you if you are on the right track with his mother's maiden name.
The problem with certificates is that the info is only as good as the informants memory and knowledge.
I actually did a simple table with all the info for both Simmons families but it really isn't needed as they are two separate families.
The death certificate for George 1907 would show his wife's name and Dora's 1925 probably has a son as the informant.
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I have the record of Arthur Simmons coming over from Liverpool to Canada on the Sardinian in 1890. It appears he was alone (no other Simmons on the passenger list) and was destined for Morden, Manitoba, Canada (where my grandma's side was raised)
I'm also going to search for a Death Record for Arthur Simmons on the Manitoba government archives and see if I have any luck there. I have since ordered the Birth Certificate (thanks, by the way) and can't wait for its arrival :)
What is puzzling to me is, assuming that that is not "my" George, how numerous family trees have the portrait that I showed earlier which also happens to be in my grandma's possession.
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What is puzzling to me is, assuming that that is not "my" George, how numerous family trees have the portrait that I showed earlier which also happens to be in my grandma's possession.
It may be that your grandma came across the photos and information in a newspaper and kept it precisely because of the coincidence of names. Is your grandmother still alive? if so can you ask her how she came by the photos.
Hopefully you will have the certificate in a couple of weeks and that will clear somethings up.
I wish I could find a marriage for 'your' George and Dora. Ah well patience is needed until the cert arrives.
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Certificate should be here tomorrow, I put a rush delivery on it ;D
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Certificate should be here tomorrow, I put a rush delivery on it ;D
Brilliant. Patience was never my strong point when it comes to waiting for certificates.
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Success!
I'm assuming the "formerly Webster" implies that she is a widow of an unknown Webster...but why does Arthur list his mother later on as "Dora Webster" in his marriage certificate?
Now...it lists Dorothy's maiden name as Simmons...I hope this isn't going where I think its going.
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Hi
Formerly Webster means that was her maiden name.
This says Dorothy, something? Webster. Can you tell what the word is after Dorothy and before Webster?
I still can't find a marriage for George Simmons and a Webster. Do you have access to birth and marriage records in US specifically Pensylvania as this is where they had their first and second children Charles and Annie K?
I am going to keep searching in the censuses for Dora/Dorothy prior to her marriage but she makes difficult by changing her mind about where she was born.
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Hi
Formerly Webster means that was her maiden name.
This says Dorothy, something? Webster. Can you tell what the word is after Dorothy and before Webster?
I still can't find a marriage for George Simmons and a Webster. Do you have access to birth and marriage records in US specifically Pensylvania as this is where they had their first and second children Charles and Annie K?
I am going to keep searching in the censuses for Dora/Dorothy prior to her marriage but she makes difficult by changing her mind about where she was born.
Looks like "Savory" to me
Feels really good to be able to distance myself from the mess that is Dora Turner/George Simmons with the whole 22 children business.
I have ancestry world deluxe so I'm going to try and seek out the Penn. records, but they look scarce at first glance.
Furthermore, I did some more digging and found a potential death record for George:
Deaths Mar 1907
Simmons George 77 Epping 4a 284
Death @ 77 makes him born ~1830 which is right on par, so I might have to go ahead and order this as well :)
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Hi
yes I also think it is savory and there are a few people with the name savory on FreeBMD and ancestry but not Dorothy/Dora Webster!
That death record is the same as I posted i think and it would give you information as to informant and his wife etc but not his parents. I also posted a possible death record for Dora earlier.
Yes I also have a full sub to ancestry but haven't been able to find any voyage record to or from USA for George and Dora/Dorothy either, together or Dora as Webster.
Still no sign of a marriage for George and Dora/Dorothy in England so we need to see if they married in US and if there are Pennsylvania birth records for Charles and Annie K.
The marriage would be good as it would give George and Dora/Dorothy's father's names.
Try www.cyndislist.com and click on U to take you to sites available for research in USA. There is a site vitalrec.com for BMD's at which I took a quick look and seems to have a free 7 day trial but then is $40 US dollars for a years sub.
There is also the Pennsylvania historical society (google it) which may be able to help with advice.
That marriage record is needed to get further back:)
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Hi
yes I also think it is savory and there are a few people with the name savory on FreeBMD and ancestry but not Dorothy/Dora Webster!
That death record is the same as I posted i think and it would give you information as to informant and his wife etc but not his parents. I also posted a possible death record for Dora earlier.
Yes I also have a full sub to ancestry but haven't been able to find any voyage record to or from USA for George and Dora/Dorothy either, together or Dora as Webster.
Still no sign of a marriage for George and Dora/Dorothy in England so we need to see if they married in US and if there are Pennsylvania birth records for Charles and Annie K.
The marriage would be good as it would give George and Dora/Dorothy's father's names.
Try www.cyndislist.com and click on U to take you to sites available for research in USA. There is a site vitalrec.com for BMD's at which I took a quick look and seems to have a free 7 day trial but then is $40 US dollars for a years sub.
There is also the Pennsylvania historical society (google it) which may be able to help with advice.
That marriage record is needed to get further back:)
As usual, thanks
Is there a reason you think his death certificate wouldn't list his parents? Thats unfortunate. Makes finding the marriage certificate all the more important.
Im probably going to end up having to order a batch of records from the freebmd to ensure I have all my bases covered.
Ill also see what I can do with the Pennsylvania link and try to make connections with George's other children and see if they have any family trees.
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Hi
The English death certs I have only give the informant and the wife or husband of the deceased.
it is different for different countries eg Australian ones I have give the husband/wife, the parents and all the children born to the marriage. Of course all the info given is only as good as the knowledge the informant has. One of my husband's great aunts got the maiden name of her mother completely wrong!
As you say the more certicates you have the more you cover all bases, and although expensive may be necessary.
I can't see any other family trees on ancestry or GenesReunited for your George or Dora/Dorothy Webster.
Looking for a birth of a Dorothy Webster on FreeBMD 1838-1845 only one turns up and that is in Bakewell Derbyshire in 1839 which is not one of the counties Dora gave in the census records as her place of birth!
I'll follow her through the censuses just to eliminate her.
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I think this could be your George Simmons with his parents in 1851. This George does not appear on the
1861 census which would fit with him being in US.
HO107/1756/481/16
Northall, Edlesborough Buckinghamshire
William Simmons 63 agricultural labourer born Cublington Buckinghamshire
Ann 56 straw palaiter Stoke hammond Bucks
George 20 straw plaiter Edlesborough Bucks
Hannah 17 straw plaiter Edlesborough
Charles 16 straw plaiter Edlesborough
Now Edlesborough is where Dora says she was born in the 1871, '81, '91 censuses. Edlesborough and Northall are only 1 mile apart.
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Same family as last post but without Ann, William's wife. it could be that she was a second wife that William married between the 1841 and '51 census.
1841 HO107/49/7/10 Book 14
Northall, Reg dist. Edlesborough Buckinghamshire
William Simmons 52 ag lab born in county YES
Maria 24 yes
William 18 yes
George 12 yes
Hannah 12 yes
Charles 6 yes.
There is a Phebe Simmons 21 in the previous household who could be related.
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yep here's the second marriage for William. Unfortunately no name of first wife but now know William's father's name. Got this from familysearch.org (beta search)
Groom's name William Simmons
Bride's name Ann Gadsden
Marriage date 18 Nov 1847
Marriage place, Edlesborough, Buckingham, England
Groom's father's name - William Simmons
Bride's father's name - Jeffry Gadsden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M13003-3
System Origin - England-VR
Source Film Number - 1042381
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Hi
The English death certs I have only give the informant and the wife or husband of the deceased.
it is different for different countries eg Australian ones I have give the husband/wife, the parents and all the children born to the marriage. Of course all the info given is only as good as the knowledge the informant has. One of my husband's great aunts got the maiden name of her mother completely wrong!
As you say the more certicates you have the more you cover all bases, and although expensive may be necessary.
I can't see any other family trees on ancestry or GenesReunited for your George or Dora/Dorothy Webster.
Looking for a birth of a Dorothy Webster on FreeBMD 1838-1845 only one turns up and that is in Bakewell Derbyshire in 1839 which is not one of the counties Dora gave in the census records as her place of birth!
I'll follow her through the censuses just to eliminate her.
Can we be sure the maiden name is "Webster" despite it saying 'formerly'? Because the Birth Certificate has: Name, surname and maiden name as Dorothy Savory Simmons which led me to believe Simmons was her maiden name
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Look what I found on the familysearch beta site. A possible for your George but it costs to get the image. Unfortunately nothing for Dora or Charles and Annie K.
1860 US census
Name, George Simmons
Residence , Westmoreland, Pennsylvania
Ward, Burrell Township
Age, 31 years
Estimated birth year, 1829
Birthplace, England
Gender: Male
Page: 85
Family number - 600
Film number- 805195
DGS number - 4293563
Image number - 00234
NARA number - M653
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Can we be sure the maiden name is "Webster" despite it saying 'formerly'? Because the Birth Certificate has: Name, surname and maiden name as Dorothy Savory Simmons which led me to believe Simmons was her maiden name
The column heading asks for "the name, surname and maiden name of mother." In other words her name at time of registering the birth and her maiden, so in this instance she is now Dorothy Savory Simmons but prior to marriage was Webster.
Goodness only knows why she changed to Dora or whether she really was Dora and changed to Dorothy.
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Look what I found on the familysearch beta site. A possible for your George but it costs to get the image. Unfortunately nothing for Dora or Charles and Annie K.
1860 US census
Name, George Simmons
Residence , Westmoreland, Pennsylvania
Ward, Burrell Township
Age, 31 years
Estimated birth year, 1829
Birthplace, England
Gender: Male
Page: 85
Family number - 600
Film number- 805195
DGS number - 4293563
Image number - 00234
NARA number - M653
1860 United States Federal Census
about George Simmons
Name: George Simmons
Age in 1860: 31
Birth Year: abt 1829
Birthplace: England
Home in 1860: Burrell, Westmoreland, Pennsylvania
Gender: Male
Post Office: Murrysville
George Simmons 31
Caroline Simmons 30
Sarah A Simmons 9
Emma Simmons 2
===
i wonder if Caroline could have been his first wife?
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Umm Burrell is very close to Pittsburg so it could be your George but if it is what happened to Caroline, Sarah and emma?
Did Caroline die and Sarah and Emma go to their maternal grandparents and dad remarried and came back to England.
We are raising more questions than answering them :)
Can you find this family in US 1871 census in an effort to eliminate them as your George?
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Umm Burrell is very close to Pittsburg so it could be your George but if it is what happened to Caroline, Sarah and emma?
Did Caroline die and Sarah and Emma go to their maternal grandparents and dad remarried and came back to England.
We are raising more questions than answering them :)
Can you find this family in US 1871 census in an effort to eliminate them as your George?
Not really looking good
1870 United States Federal Census
about George Simmons
Name: George Simmons
Birth Year: abt 1829
Age in 1870: 41
Birthplace: England
Home in 1870: Allegheny, Armstrong, Pennsylvania
Gender: Male
Value of real estate: .
Household Members:
Name Age
George Simmons 41
Caroline Simmons 40
Sarah Ann Simmons 18
Emma Simmons 13
Mary Jane Simmons 10
George Simmons 7
John Simmons 4
William Douglas 24
Elisabeth Douglas 21
Alfred James 30
Andrew Quinn 28
Thomas Davis 35
Martin Mullin 23
Elizah Heath 23
William Quinn 30
Joseph Howard 19
===
However, the 1881 Census in England lists Charles Simmons' birthplace as Allegheny which is interesting as this is where the census is taken from.
Also:
1880 United States Federal Census
about Geo. Simmons
Name: Geo. Simmons
Home in 1880: Gilpin, Armstrong, Pennsylvania
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Birthplace: England
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Great, now we know that this is not your George and family as he couldn't be in two places at once. Your George is in England in 1871 and 1881 with children born in Essex.
The US George could be a cousin or something which is why your George went there in the first place but will we ever know.
It's a pity the US census doesn't say when the US George immigrated. can you find this family later than 1880?
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George E. Simmons, and George M. Simmons are two different people, which you've definitely figured out by now. George M. (for Michael) was married to Dora. They had two children in the US (Charles W., and Annie Kate), and then returned to England where they had additional children. Two sons migrated to North America, Arthur to Canada, and Charles William (the oldest) to Minnesota.
George M. was a farmer in Chigwell, but also a musician, and sang in local church choirs; he may have had a stint at the Victoria and Albert on an amateur basis. Son Charles W. was a well-known theater organist for silent movies throughout the early part of the 20th century.
I, too am very curious to know the circumstances of their travel to the US and return. It might have been to avoid the Civil War, and / or to take over the family farm in Chigwell. There is a "Simmons Lane" that is related. Just conjectures. Does anyone know what the middle initial "E" stands for in the other "George Simmons." I have an uncle George (son of Charles W.) whose middle initial was also "E." So, there may be a relationship.