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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Peter Hyde on Thursday 03 March 11 13:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I am trying to trace a merchant seaman backwards using crewlists. I have found him back to serving on the Margarita (ON 115951) in 1915. But that crewlist is not held in Newfoundland nor does it seem to be at Greenwich or Kew. If I can't find that crewlist then I am at a major brick wall. I have him on crewlists back from 1922 but without the Margarita list I cant find out what ship he was on before 1915. Any ideas?
Many thanks
Peter
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Which company owned the Margarita and where was she registered?
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A long shot. It could well be that she did not enter a UK port in 1915 and her crew agreements for that year are together with her 1916 documents which are in MUN. If they are not there then, yes, you have hit a major brick wall.
Are you 100% they are not at NMM?
I have conflicting information on who owned her in 1915 A Holland and Co. or Southern Railways?
Not that this would make a lot of difference as most shipping companies would have very little information on individuals.
Have you tried searching for him before 1913 in the CLIP project.
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/
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Hi Scouse & Seaweed
Thanks for replying.
Arthur Albert HALE was in the crew of the Gracefield (ON 122835) out of Barry from 27/10/1915 to 29/1/1916. On that crewlist he is shown as previously having been on the Margarita. He almost never stayed on a ship for more than one trip and is not on the Margarita in 1914. MUN don't have 1915 lists as they are supposed to be at Greenwich. Here's what the incredibly helpful lady from MUN said:
"Hi Peter,
The National Maritime Museum has 90% of crew agreements for 1915 so I’m very surprised it wasn’t there. I checked 1916 in case a 1915 was misfiled but the earliest crew agreement was dated 21/10/15 – 14/6/16 and Arthur is not among the crew. I checked the one lonely 1915 box we have but we do not have the Margarita for that year. And I rechecked 1914 but the latest crew agreement ends In November.
The only suggestion I have is the National Archives in Kew. They have a small sample of crew agreements for each year, so there is a chance it was held there. If they don`t have it, I don`t know where else you can check. Maybe the vessel is not the Margarita after all.
Sincerely,
Tanya McDonald
Archival Assistant
Maritime History Archive
Memorial University of Newfoundland"
The friend of mine who went to Greenwich to look for for me is unable to go back for a second look so I am not sure where to turn.
Cheers
Peter Hyde
South Australia
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Yes. Tanya at MUN is always helpful.
You will note Tanya and myself refer to the Crew Agreement rather than the Crew List.
They are two different things. The crew list is usually part of the vessels logbook and records the persons name, discharge number, conduct and number in the Crew Agreement. There may be a Logbook at Kew and although, I suggest, it would not tell you his previous ship it may contain some detail which may give some clue. It may also say something about him in the narrative pages.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=2352114&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
I don't know if you have seen this medal record
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8461149&queryType=1&resultcount=2
I still think her 1915 Crew Agreements are at NMM if anywhere.
I would take a look for you but NMM is the wrong side of London for me to do a one off search.
You can ask a professional research but the don't come cheap.
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/independent-researchers
You maybe in luck see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=518377.msg3740583;topicseen#msg3740583
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Hey Seaweed - many thanks for sharing your expertise.
Just as an explanation for why I am looking...
Arthur Albert HALE
I have his medal sheet from the National Archives, and, from the MHA, I have established his service record from Oct 1915 through to his arrival in Australia in 1923. He married in Cardiff just before joining the Gracefield in Oct 1915; his wife had a child during his last voyage in 1923 (which, looking at his sailing dates, was probably not his) at which point he jumped ship in South Australia and bigamously married again. His bigamy was unknown to his family in Australia!
Our reason for trying to trace him back before Oct 1915 is that while he persistently claims to have been born in Cardiff, at various dates between 1889 and 1895, there is no record of his birth nor is he present for any of the censuses. He states on both his marriage certs that his father was a farmer in Cardiff called Edwin Harvey HALE, yet Edwin does not show up in Britain in any census. However, there is an Edwin Harvey HALE farming in Jamaica at this time (but not in Wales, Jamaica!), having lots of children and committing murder in 1901 at which point a young son, Arthur, testifies at his trial. I have so far been unable to find the birth of Arthur in Jamaica. If this is indeed the same Arthur, then there is a gap from 1901 to 1915 during which he arrives in Wales, claims to be Welsh and joins the Merchant Navy.
We are 85% certain this is the same person based on family naming patterns - he calls his son born in Wales Albert Gerald (he had a brother Gerald who died); he calls his son in Australia John Edwin (his father was Edwin); he calls one of his daughters in Australia Joan Agnes (his Jamaican mother was Agnes), and Edwin's father was called Arthur Diddams HALE.
So, while his Merchant Navy history is fascinating, the real purpose of tracing it is to find a link to those missing years and hopefully back to Jamaica. Ideally we would love to find him on a merchant vessel saying we was from Jamaica rather than from Wales, but the missing Margarita agreement for 1915 have brought that quest to a halt.
I have researched many families, but this one is as convoluted as any I have come across. (Chief Big Bear in Canada was perhaps more so).
The quest continues!
Peter Hyde
South Australia
29 degrees and sunny
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Hi again
Just as an aside... it seems the Margarita was used to tow x-lighters for the Gallipoli landings from Devonport to Malta during 1915 ( www.xlighter.org ). As this would have been an Admiralty arrangement, would it have resulted in the Crew Agreement being located somewhere different?
Peter
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From other records I know there was a vessel with that name at Malta in late 1915. It could well be that a vessel called MARGARITA (There may be more than one) was hired by the Admiralty.
If so she would have had a T124 agreement. I am reliably informed that these T124 agreements 1914-1920 are held by MUN. If so it may be worth asking Tanya if she has any knowledge of these. I do not know what they contain circa WW1.
I have sent you a PM ref. Logbook.
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Hi. I am new to this but was searching about info on my Granddad. I just want to give you some info from his Merchant Seaman Log Book. "Margarita", 115951-S, London, 1759, HP 279. "Description of Voyage", Admiralty Service, Signature of The Master looks like A Nicol. He was discharged from that ship on the 12th Oct 1915. I don't know if this is of any use but it has already helped me find info about the Margarita.
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I have a copy of the Crew Agreement for that voyage of the Margarita - if you would like a copy let me know your e-mail address
Cheers, Peter
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