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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: twitter on Sunday 27 February 11 15:52 GMT (UK)
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Morning All
I am still trying to trace James Sinclair. I have through the census and death records 3 siblings who say they were born in Finneston. I have their parents names but I can find no records of their birth or their parents marriage or any records from a Finneston. When I type in Finneston I get a crane on the Clyde. The siblings were all born in the early 1800's and ended up living in Glassford. I was hoping that their might have been a fourth child - James but without the records it's a no go. So what is /was a Finneston and why are there no records? Any help or info would be appreciated. Thanks
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Hi, Finniston is a a district in Glasgow,
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Are you looking at the original census records or are you looking at transcripts?
According to the 1851 census index, there were quite a few Sinclairs born in Glassford. It is most unusual to see a district such as Finnieston Glasgow appear in the census. Usually the entry would just be "Lanarkshire Glasgow" without the district.
Could it be that Finnieston has been badly transcribed from "Flemington" (an area in Avondale parish, which has a common boundary with Glassford parish).
Perhaps if you tell us a little more about the research you have already carried out, someone may come up with a fresh idea.
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Hi Lodger
Over the last several years through census and death records I have been trying to trace all the Sinclair families in Glassford specifically between the 1841 to 1861 census to ascertain if my James Sinclair belongs to anyone in the parish. There are 5 families and the one that might have been a "maybe" was a David Sinclair, sister Martha and William. David married Christian Shearer in 1841 and Martha (spinster)lived with them for a while. William disappears between "41 and 51" and Martha goes to live with William"s wife Margaret (nee Simpson). It seemed a bit strange that both my James and William disappear within the same time frame. David died 12/06/66, Martha died 18/08/69 and on both death certificates parents were James Sinclair and Ann Davidson. Both Martha and David indicated they were born in Finneston on the "61" census so that's why I've been looking for Finneston records.Living in the Shearer family just prior to Christians marriage to David was a William Davidson age 65 so I've always thought there was a Shearer Davidson Sinclair connection but have never been able to find it. Sorry to be so long winded but it's a puzzlement. Can you help?
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When and where did your James die?
Who were his parents and when was he born?
Would Finnieston have been in Renfrewshire in the early 1800s?
Is he on the 1841 census for Glassford and if so is he recorded as born Scotland or Lanarkshire?
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According to the 1851 census index, the "David" Sinclair who was married to Christian, is named "Davidson Sinclair". He is then aged 47, Christian is 45 and Martha is 50 - all born in Glassford.
Can I ask you again - are you looking at the original census documents or perhaps at the Ancestry transcripts? Does it read "Lanarkshire, Finnieston"?
Lodger
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Morning Sancti and Lodger
First of all thank you for trying to help; you may remember helping me with the Glassford Cemetery pictures. I'll try and answer Sancti's questions first. The answer is I don't know. My James Sinclair comes out of the mist of history with his marriage in Lesmahagow in "38" to Margaret Menzies. The SP record says he was from the parish of Dalserf. I've tried to trace that angle but nothing. He dies between "41 and 44" as Margaret remarries in Oct. of that year in Glassford. I have SP documents of the "41"census and both marriages. The "41 " census states James was born in Lanark, age 25 so that makes a birth around 1816. But the "41" census really can't be trusted re: births and Lanark is a large area. So no confirmed parents, no death registered no burial located. As for Finnieston being in Renfrew I have no idea. For occupations he is listed as an ag. labourer, carter and on his son John's marriage certificate a potato dealer.
Now to Lodger
The Davidson Sinclair I believe is a transcription error. SP has no record of a birth by that name anywhere in Lanark or all Scotland for that matter, believe me I've tried but that's what is written on the "41" census from SP. I know it says he was born in Lanark in "41" but by "61" it's stated as Finnieston or Finneston (which one is right?). The later census records "51" and later are from Ancestry. I use Ancestry to start a trace and if I get a good lead it's to Sp I go to try and confirm.
Any insights?
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If the 41 and 51 census record him as Davidson, how can it be a transcription error? The 51 census has his birthplace as Glassford Parish - there is more to the parish than just the village of Glassford.
So, once again, if the later census images have not been viewed and you are relying solely on the Ancestry version no one can help you until you check the original document.
Does the 1861 census have"Lanarkshire Finnieston"???
As for Finniston (in Glasgow) being in Renfrewshire, I would say that it is highly unlikely as F/ton is on the north bank of the river and, as far as I know, Renfrewshire only reached to the south-west of Govan village.
Lodger
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Here's what I have
41 Davidson S. born Lanark not married
51 Davidson S. born Glassford Lanark married to Christian Shearer. Children John 9, Barbara 7, Thomas 5, William 2 and Martha (sister) 50
61 David S. Not Davidson, married to Christian. Children James 21, (James S. was born before the marriage but is now back with the family. He lived with his grandfather John Shearer up until the grandfather's death ) John 19, Barbara 18, Thomas 15, William 12 and a new one George 8. The marriage took place in Glassford on the 13th of June 1841 just after the June 6th census. The marriage certificate stated David Sinclair not Davidson. Martha has moved and is now living with her sister in law Margaret in Glassford. So what are the chances to two separate families in the same town having identical children at exactly the same time.
The 61 census states Finnestwon (that's the spelling) Lanark from Ancestry.
Does that help or make it worse.
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Twitter, to resolve this I think you will have to look at the original census images on SP to claify name and place of birth.
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I have SP census for 41, 51 and 71 but not 61. They are on line with SP so I have to keep flipping around to see them. Will take hard copies later this PM and see if anything new turns up but from a quick look see it appears to be what I sent you . Davidson? Sinclair was a spirit dealer in "41" prior to his marriage. Maybe he spent too much time testing the quality of his stock?
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Morning Lodger and Sancti
Back again. I have all my ducks in a row this morning. All the following off the SP census form
All takes place in the Westquarter, Glassford, no street names or #'s given.
41 Davidson Sinclair age 35 grocer and spirit dealer
51 Davidson Sinclair age 47, weaver, born Lanark, Glassford. All the children the same as before including sister Martha
61 David Sinclair age 57, weaver, born Lanark Finnestown. All the chidren same as before plus George. Martha not present as before.
66 David Sinclair dies in Westquarter,Glassford of heart disease.
Comments and/or questions?
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Just thought I'd add this bit.(curious)
41 Martha spinster living alone on Millar street
51 Martha living with Davidson ?Sinclair and says she was also born in Glassford
61 Martha living with sister in law now says she was born in Finnestown.
69 Martha dies of a cold and fever.
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Twitter,
West Quarter is a small village in the parish of Glassford.
There used to be (could still be) a building, probably a small tenement of 4 or 6 flats, that went by the name of Pinkerton Buildings. I wonder if Finnieston is a badly-written Pinkeston?
Lodger
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hi lodger
61 census clear as a bell Finnestown.
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Twitter,
Your William Sinclair was murdered at West Quarter in 1841.
Go to the National Archives of Scotland website and enter Sinclair Glassford.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Lodger
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Well done lodger
I would never have thought to go there. I have taken copies. Is he buried in Glassford "maybe"? By 1841 they had seven kids and lived on Millar street. Would trial documents reveal any background details that might be useful ie any involvement by my James Sinclair or relatives. Just a hunch
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Would trial documents reveal any background details that might be useful ie any involvement by my James Sinclair or relatives. Just a hunch
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There's only one way to find out!
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From the link provided by Lodger
AD4/2 Printed Indictments 1854-1874
AD14/41/103 Precognition against Alexander Reid for the crime of murder at Westquarter, parish of Glassford, Lanarkshire 1841
JC26/1841/383 Trial papers relating to Alexander Reid for the crime of murder at Westquarter, parish of Glassford, Lanarkshire. Tried at High Court, Glasgow 22 Dec 1841
SC38 Lanark Sheriff Court Records
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The case is reported in the Glasgow Herald
It was a street fight and Alex Reid was sentenced to 9 months in Hamilton jail for culpable homicide
James Sinclair, carter, was one of the witnesses
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Thank you so much. So how does one get a copy of the news story from the Glasgow Herald. I read on NAS the documents re: the trial are available but you have to go there and request them and much as I'd love to visit Scotland that's not going to happen for awhile. So if I asked them would they copy them,for a fee of course? I am so excited about these revelations and a possibility that the James in question might be my James. I owe it all to the both of you.
I spent most of the afternoon trying again to find James Sinclair and Ann Davidson with questionable results. The only marriage I could find anywhere in the British Isles, Ireland, the Channel Islands etc. was a John Sinclair and an Ann Davidson married in Thurso Caithness on Dec. 6th 1801. But no children listed. So for now I'll concentrate on James and hope there's a thread.
Without your help I would know none of this. Thank you so much!
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You can read about it on the archive, due to the age of it the print quality is not great but you get the gist of the story. Hope this link works
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=18411224&printsec=frontpage
Page 1 column 3 at bottom of page continuing to column 4 at top of page
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Sinclair is a very common Caithness/Orkney name so there is a high probability that is where you will end up eventually if you progress backwards successfully. Finstown is a location in Orkney. It wouldn't be the first time that a census record has shown the wrong county. And Shearer is a very common Orkney name. Just a little bit of background information in case you run out of ideas!
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I read the Glasgow Herald report and will try to get a copy, but parts are very muddy, but the important thing is it's a thread. Will contact the NAS and see what they can do re trial transcripts. Thanks Sancti.
Thank you for your interest Imber. Years ago my husband's father said the family came from Caithness. But noone was doing the "roots thing" back then and that statement can be interrupted several ways. No other questions were ever asked. The Finstown reference is interesting and may become more important if new threads come along, so thanks for mentioning it.
Does anyone know when the Kirk Session records (on line) will be available as they may contain a thread to follow.
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I have a copy from the Glasgow Herald. It took some doing but it's just great to have it. Resolution not great but you can read it. Thankyou again for your effort. I tried something Imber sort of suggested and posted some info on the Caithness site to see if anything might turn up. It''s worth a try!
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To Sancti and Lodger
Just an update re your suggestions. On the Glasgow Herald report even after hours of work trying to get the image clear I was not satisfied with the result. So I transcribed it word for word as a word document. If you are interested in a clean copy for your records just sent me an email and I'll pass it along. You never know when Alexander Reid's ancestors may turn up and without the two of you I would never have known.
Have emailed NAS re transcripts but it appears it will be months and months before I am able to get the documents. As for the Caithness post it appears to be another brick wall re my James but it was a long shot at best. So I await the Kirk Session records going on line outside of Scotland. Thanks again -all the best
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Hi All
The documents I ordered from the NAS arrived yesterday and are making fascinating reading. A snap shot in time of what started out to be an ordinary day in a small village that went terribly wrong. I received both the Precognition statements of all the witnesses and the trial documents including the autopsy results. In total it added up to about 70 pages. So did I learn anything and is it going to be helpful? Yes and no!
From the documents my James Sinclair stated that on the Nov. 3/ 41 he was 29 years old. So for the first time I have an exact age but not a date of birth. Also from the documents that William Sinclair (the deceased) was his Uncle. So that confirms the link between my James and David S, Martha S and William S. But it doesn't bring me any closer to finding James' parents.
So here is how the data shapes up. David, Martha and William's parents are James Sinclair and Ann Davidson but no marriage or birth records. James' only son was called John so I'm pretty sure James' father was called John based on Scottish naming tradition. All suggestions most welcome. twitter
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have you tried www.freecen.org.uk i think your sinclairs are on it at west quarter
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I wonder if this is Alexander Reid in 1841
Alexander Reid 35 Head Occupation: Cotton H L W
Margaret Reid 30
Alexander Reid 9
Francis Reid 7
Mingo Reid 1
Address: Westquarter Millar Street Glassford
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Hi sancti & shawsboy
Thanks for the replies. According to the Witness statement by my James, Alexander Reid was his next door neighbour and this is confirmed by the 41 census as Alexander comes right after my James and his family. Alexander Reid-25,
Barbara R. -25, Alexander R.-5, William R. -3 and Barbara R.-1. Alexander is describe by all the witnesses as a man of "quick passions" translation he had a "hot temper." Reid who was a weaver's agent and employed a number of weavers on Millar St., accused William of not completing the cloth he had sent him. William said he would get it soon enough but that he was going with James Sinclair to "hawk' potatoes that day. Well that started it!
As for your suggestion shawsboy I will check it out and get back to you. I had to be away yesterday and just got back home. All you messages and suggestions are very helpful just keep em coming.
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I don't think this has anything at all to do with Finnieston in Glasgow where there is the big crane outside the Scottish Exhibition Centre.
You say the 1841 census at Westquarter lists Davidson Sinclair, 35, born in the county. In other words, probably not in the town or parish of Lanark, but somewhere in Lanarkshire. Also ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so his actual age could have been anything from 35 to 39. Therefore he could have been born any time from 1801 until 1806.
Then you say the 1851 census lists Davidson Sinclair, age 47, and sister Martha in Westquarter in the parish of Glassford, and saying they were born in Glassford. So he was born 1803/4, and in the parish where he was living. This is totally consistent with the 1841 census.
Then in 1861, basically the same information, only saying Finnestown in Lanarkshire instead of Glassford as the place of birth.
As all the three censuses are consistent about his age and his county of birth, it seems unlikely that either of these pieces of information are incorrect.
Therefore the inference I would draw is that Finni/esto(w)n is, or more likely was, a farm or house in the parish of Glassford. However there's no place listed in the 1851 census of Glassford with a name remotely resembling Finnestown, so it must have changed its name, or disappeared, before 1851.
By the way Westquarter is the village now named on modern maps as Glassford.
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1841 census has a few Sinclair families in Glassford
Alexander Sinclair 40 Occupation: Cotton H L W
Margaret Sinclair 40
James Sinclair 15
Thomas Sinclair 10
John Sinclair 50 Occupation: Cotton H L W
Jean Thomson 45
Address: Westquarter
All born Lanarkshire
William Sinclair 45 Occupation: Cotton H L W
Margaret Sinclair 40 born Scotland
Janet Sinclair 25 born: Scotland
James Sinclair 20
Ann Sinclair 14
William Sinclair 12
Jean Sinclair 11
John Sinclair 10
Mary Sinclair 6
Peter Barr 2
Address: Westquarter Millar Street
All born Lanarkshire unless stated
Martha Sinclair 40 Born Lanarkshire occupation FS
Address: Westquarter Millar Street
Davidson Sinclair 35 born: Lanarkshire, occupation Grocer & Sp Deal
Address: Westquarter Old Street
James Sinclair 25 Occupation: Ag Lab
Margaret Sinclair 25
John Sinclair 2
Elizabeth Sinclair 4 MO
Address: Westquarter Millar Street
All born Lanarkshire
There is also a 2yr old James Sinclair living with the Shearer family at Westquarter Old Street
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Hi Sancti and Forfarian
Thank you so much for all your help. I have traced all the Sinclair families, back as far as I can go. There were actually 5 Sinclair families in the Westquarter,in 1841, of which three are blood related. I know that David and Martha said they were born in Glassford and later changed it to Finnestown but there are no records on SP to confirm any of that nor William for that matter. No records for an Ann Davidson married to a James Sinclair either on SP or the IGI Index. I have in my research found out that in the late 1700's the kirk in Glassford began charging 5 pence to record a birth, marriage or death and continued to do so well into the 1800's. The article indicated that once this fee was charged the number of registrations declined. So all of the above may be true but without the records it's idle speculation.Based on the info I have my James's father is most likely a brother of James Sinclair possibly called John but again that's speculation. With your help I have tried every angle but no go. On the LDS site I have just read that there are no Kirk session records for the Established church in Glassford so finding my James Sinclair's ancestors which has been the object of all of this appears to be sadly hopeless.
Thank you all!
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Info Update
For anyone who read my last post that said via the LDS site that there were no Kirk Session records for Glassford -that information is misleading. The NAS does have them, so all is not lost. Perhaps, the LDS site should have stated that the NAS held the records it would have been more useful . Based on that information I had decided to give up my search. But ever hopeful I await them going online.
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Hi Twitter,
This will give you an idea what has survived of the parochial records of Glassford.
Parish number is 645.
645/1
Baptisms are from 1692 and although the pages have been badly damaged by water the entries are legible. The mother’s name is omitted but place of abode included. Records improve by 1740’s and mother’s name added from 1769. Much easier to read by 1780’s and witnesses added from 1797 until end of book at May 1820.
Proclamations begin at 1692 and are readable; there is a gap from June 1746 until October 1783. Another gap from 1804 until September 1816, the book ends at December 1819.
Session accounts include mortcloth payments from 1733 and the early ones, although difficult to read, have good information. Accounts for the tolling of the funeral bell for the year 1785 has names. Also list of names from parish collections for 1783 and a list of poor for 1783.
Register of deaths & burials from October 1783 has some good information, ends at December 1807.
645/2.
Baptisms from 1820 but are a scrawl until the 1830’s when they become much better and end at 1854.
Proclamations from 1820 but until 1835 there are sometimes only one entry for each year. After 1835 there are more entries and in a better hand, end at February 1856.
Registrar General says there are deaths in this book but I couldn’t find any.
Lodger
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Thank you Lodger!
Yesterday I had given up all hope of finding anything new. I couldn't believe the Kirk Session records for almost 400 years had gone missing, were destroyed or worse never kept. I am hopeful that my James messed up at some point and had to explain himself to the kirk council. You have obviously seen the records and used them for your research so I have hope for mine.
Question: In Jame's witness statement to the Sheriff he said"I went back to my own house with the Gil Jug and some person came in and told me that they doubled my Uncle was gone". ( copied exactly as written) What does "doubled" mean and what is a "Gil Jug"?
This statement was made after William's unconscious body was taken off the road to the Shearer's house and after others pull Reid off my James Sinclair who was accosted by Reid for pulling him off his Uncle.
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It sounds like a jug used to measure alcohol
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/233688/gill
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Question: In Jame's witness statement to the Sheriff he said"I went back to my own house with the Gil Jug and some person came in and told me that they doubled my Uncle was gone". ( copied exactly as written) What does "doubled" mean and what is a "Gil Jug"?
A gill was, as Sancti has already said, a measure of liquid, commonly associated with whisky here in Scotland. Until the metric system and the E.U. caught up with us, a quarter or a fifth of a gill was the usual measure for the selling of whisky and other spirits in public houses and hotels. Many years ago, a gill jug or jar was used to fetch whisky home in, before people could afford to buy it by the bottle. (The jar would have been supplied by the village merchant or by the Pub - I have one here that dates from about 1880, made of stoneware). So it sounds as though the Glessart folk were having a wee celebration when the dirty deed was committed, things just got a little out of hand and someone was murdered. An everyday tale of country life!
I think "doubled" could be "doubted". If someone exclaimed that "I doubt your uncle has gone", it would translate as "I feel sure your uncle is dead". That would make sense, but "doubled" makes no sense at all.
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
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Gill jugs
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The larger "Lightbody" is a 2 gill jug.
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Hi! Back Again
I have just finished an email to a distant cousin in Australia, I've met through genealogy. I was singing your praises and telling her about all the help you have given me. Again thanks
To Lodger the pictures are super and explain a practise in Scotland I would never have had a clue about. The "doubled" thing makes sense the way you explained it. A weaver named John Fallow picked up William off the road and carried him to the Shearer's house. While all this was going on James was having a dust up with Reid so he never saw William being moved. I quess he thought William was just knocked out and continued to his house.Following the "Doubled" statement James must have realized this fight was more serious than he realized as he states he went to the Shearer's house to see his Uncle and seeing no sign of life in him rode to Strathhaven and brought back Dr.Craig (surgeon) who stated " life was extinct". The entire altercation took place between 7 and 7:15 in the morning.
I have saved the pictures you sent . To Sancti again thanks. for your help. However still looking for the birth of James Sinclair 29 years old as of Nov. 1841 whose father may have been a John Sinclair (no proof of that). Any lead will be followed up.
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I think "doubled" could be "doubted". If someone exclaimed that "I doubt your uncle has gone", it would translate as "I feel sure your uncle is dead". That would make sense, but "doubled" makes no sense at all.
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
That was exactly my thought too. I remember my grandmother standing out in the rain saying, 'I doubt it's raining', meaning 'I am sure it's raining', and many other similar utterances starting with, 'I doubt ....' and implying that there was absolutely no doubt at all about it. 'I doubt you'll be in trouble when your father finds out about that', was a very popular one, both to me and to my brother.
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Yes, I doubt you're spot on there Forfarian. And it was always pronounced "DOOT".
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Yes, I doubt you're spot on there Forfarian. And it was always pronounced "DOOT".
Aye, that it was.
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Afternoon All
Back again on my Sinclair "thing". It was something Forfarian said in one of his replies that got me to thinking he may be on to something. He suggested it may not have been Finnieston as the Census recorded as in Glasgow but possible a farm or perhaps a house. I have a post card from my grandfather to his daughter Lizzie dated 1909 and it is addressed to her at St. Brides, Carrickfergus. Now St. Brides is a house, but since it was known by that name no problem with delivery.
So I went into Scotlands Places and began to go through the horse tax of 1797/98 by parish. At least those I though might be close to Glassford. I did Glassford, Stonehouse, Dalserf, Hamilton, Dalziel, Bothwell and Old Monkland. I found a James Sinclair in Glassford assessed 2 shillings for his horse and the next year 2 shiilings and 3 pence for likely not paying the tax in the first place. The next bits I got re the Finnieston thing were not exact matches but in Dalziel a John Muirhead at Flimington and John Windshaw at Foursington. In Bothwell a Mrs. Funnison at Jarriston. The other parishes not even close. So perhaps it was a farm or a house. It doesn't move the search closer but thanks to Forfarian I continue to try.
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The Dalziel Parish places mentioned are probably Flemington and Coursington
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And the Jarriston is Jerviston which to all intents ans purposes was in Dalziel parish really, as the people there worshiped at Dalziel church.
The Finnieston you want was in Glassford parish, do not be tempted to stray! It was a farm community that has now gone - but it was there at one time!
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dear twitter,
my grandfather was james as refer ed in this article.
my great grandfather was john as refer ed in this article.
have supporting documents on same
scots annie.
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Hello Scots Annie
Your post stopped me dead in my tracks. Actually I have been dead stopped on the Sinclair ancestors for about a year and a half. We definitely could have mutual relations and I would be very interested in learning more about you and your family, if that's okay with you and I will give you as much info as I have gathered. There was a John Sinclair which I lost track of between the 1891 and the 1901 census, he just disappeared. The rest of the family at one point or another came to Canada. One by the name of Jane did come out but may have returned- she also is missing. I would very much like to hear you story. Thank you for writing, I look forward to hearing from you
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dear twitter,
the james and john i was referring to was the fallow side from your articles to which i was hoping that we could confer with about and exchange information about.
if we can conclude what information you have regarding your sinclairs then there may be a possible link up of information. is it possible for a phone no so we can talk outside the box or an email address.
regards,
scotannie.
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Morning Scot Annie
Thank you for your post. I am unsure of what you are asking for. I didn't understand the statement about the "fallow side of my articles" so if you could explain I may be able to help. Phone #'s or email addresses will be removed for privacy reasons. So if you can give me some names and dates perhaps we can start there. Good to hear from you.
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now for some dates and places hi twitterscots annie thought you were afellowfallow my john fallow married tradeston near finniston in1852him and hisfamiliyall livied withinallthese areas which are still in the west end of glasgow even me istill have familiy there the last livingnamed fallow being my motherjruth in1989there are still fallow decendentsof this line in usa ihave met them all in usa now a list of minejohn fallow robertfallow born partick glasgow1904william brother of john james son of john theyall lived and died in glasgow bye for now scots annie
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Morning Scots Annie
My family tree has Sinclair's, Marshall's, Crosier's , Allan's, Woodburn's and Rarities in it but unfortunately no Fallow's. Several of my early Sinclair ancestors said at one point, on the census, they were born in Finneston, which could have been an area of Glasgow or the name of a farm which no longer exists. They were at one point located in the village of Glassford and are either buried there or moved on to other places in Scotland. But that is where the Finneston inquiry began. I don't think there is any connection between our families, at least at this point. Best of luck searching for your Fallow's, I hope your successful.
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hi again twitter there is a site called virtual mitchell in glasgow and its free if you have any familiy adresses you canlook up area and adress lots of old pictures on it i also have allan familiy my grand mother was jeanie allan daughter of robert allan roberts wife was elisabeth andrew they married july 1881 in partick glasgow finniston is a place just a 10 or15 min walk from partick and both still therei know because i come from theregood luck annie from partick if i can help you in any way justmessageme ann
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Famous for the big crane folks, here it is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnieston_Crane
Skoosh.