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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: knbkms on Sunday 27 February 11 01:15 GMT (UK)
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Please has anyone got any info about a street in Deptford, Butts Street, This was demolished but was there about 1920-1925 for sure. I have certificates to prove that. It cannot be found on any maps, about 1890 though and is not listed anywhere for then. Does anyone know anything about it, and wonder oh wonder, does anyone have any old pictures. My mum and nan and numerous other relations are connected and it would make my day!!!!
Thanks
Kim
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Not too sure about Butts Street - have just googled "Where was Butts Street, Deptford" and Butts Lane came up (try it out) and this was off Deptford High Street.
Wonder if they are same place, with Street or Lane changing prior to demolishing. There are a quite a few 50/60's housing estates and some 1940's ones also. So it is an area which has changed and lots of little places lost over the years.
You could also contact any Local History Group's or Lewisham council to see if they have anything in their archives. Again google for both.
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Hiya
You say that you have "certificates", have you got a 1891/1901 census reference for anyone?
Ray
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Hello
Thanks for the replies ~ the certificates that I have are a baptism for my mother, 1921 and a wedding for her stepmothers eldest childs wedding. He gave that address in 1924. I have since found out that this tiny street is listed in a victorian a ~ z, 1930 but was a slum area and was demolished shortly after. It was actually Butt Street, and is nowhere on 1894 maps. So Iam narrowing down the years it which it stood. I dont think my dream of a picture is going to come true, it appears it wasnt there long.
Many thanks
Kim
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These are the only "Butts" from the 1891 census:
Butts Cottages, St George, CAMBERWELL
Butts Lime Works, St George, CAMBERWELL
Butts Yard, St Mary Magdalene, ST SAVIOUR
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Kim, can I just clarify please?
You know the street existed up till 1924.
Are you saying that you have a 1930 A to Z that shows the street?
Am I correct in thinking that you DO know where the street used to be, but you are trying to find it on maps prior to 1921 when your mother lived there? Is there a reason you were looking for it in 1894?
IF you DO know where it used to be and have a map which shows this, are you able to post the image so we can see where it was and try to locate it on earlier maps?
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Dear Ruskie,
Am having trouble posting the map, but am going to try and send it seperately. With apologies for not appearing clearer, I visited the LMA yesterday so now have a better idea of where Butt Street was.
It was not as I, and many others thought, originally Butts Lane, now New Butt Lane but was actually a tiny little street near the "V" where Creek Road and Watergate street met.
Originally my dream was to find a picture, but that seems highly unlikely. It was demolished because it was a real slum area and now I would like to know, if possible, the type of dwellings and how long the street was actually there and in what year it was demolished
Many thanks, will ty and post that map now
Kim
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Thanks Kim. Good luck with posting it. :)
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Sorry Ruskie, it simply wont let me post it, is there any other way I can get it to you? Maybe an email address
Thanks
Kim
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Am just about to sign off now, but was Butts Street diagonally across from Watergate St to Creek Rd? I have found these streets on google maps. If so, I think that will be enough to be getting on with for the time being. ;) (gives me an idea where to look)
You can see that the whole area has been 'redeveloped'. Shame.
Have you seen this site?:
http://www.olddeptfordhistory.com/2010/07/watergate-street.html
There is a photo of Watergate Street which may give you an impression of what the area was like. Butts Street may have had smaller houses of course. The site owners may be able to help with your query.
I will take another look tomorrow if no one comes to your aid before then. :)
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Hi
"Back in the day" 1850 http://london1850.com/cross23.htm
Deptford High Street was Butts Lane
Watergate Lane was Kings Street
Creek Road was New Road
Ray
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Hi
"Back in the day" 1850 http://london1850.com/cross23.htm
Deptford High Street was Butts Lane
Watergate Lane was Kings Street
Creek Road was New Road
Ray
So would Butts Road have been Flagon Row or Bridge Row? Or am I looking in the wrong place?
Maybe Kim can explain where Butts Street used to be in relation to that Cross map. :)
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http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html
has a selection of maps of the area over different years, however, disappointingly, none of the smaller streets in the area are named.
Once again Kim, you might want to look through some of these yourself. If you know where the street was then looking through the maps over the years you may be able to see when it disappeared.
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Thanks all for the replies, heres what I know now ~ Butt street was there in 1911, census results show that, but prior to that I think it was called Henrietta street ~ henrietta street is NOT on 1911 census but on earlier ones and Butt street vice versa so there is probably something in the fact that I found out that henrietta street became butt street. What I need to find out now is how long Butt street was still standing. Does that make sense, I have had to read it myself three times but I think its clear.
Reading Charles booth links of that time describes Henrietta street as being a very poor, smelling, rough area ~ indeed Watergate street, that runs alongside it is full of women with black eyes, shoeless children, filth and indescribable stenches amongst other things. Apparently Henrietta street only consisted of about 7 houses and this does seem to fit in with the size, etc of what became Butt Street.....
And Ray, you are looking in the wrong place, Flagon Row/Bridge Row is near but not actually Butt Street. Butt Street is the tiny little "alley" type road that runs across Church Street and Watergate where the two meet, triangular in shape. I did try to upload a map earlier that shows it clearly, but for some reason I was unable to do so. I will try again
Thanks again
Kim
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Henrietta Street West changed to Butt Street around 1929 according to this:
http://www.maps.thehunthouse.com/Streets/Old_to_New_Abolished_London_Street_Names.htm#H
;D
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Sorry Ray, but your 1850 map was hopelessly out of date when it was published, as most preOS maps were.
Butt Lane (not Butts) became the High Street in the 1820s.
King (not Kings) Street gradually became known as Old King Street after the building of New King Street. When London Postal Districts came in it was renamed Watergate but has gradually become known as Watergate Street. It is not and never has been Watergate Lane.
The hunthouse website lacks any proper attribution and 'information' on it should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
The present situation where local authorities define street names is a very recent development. In the past street names constantly evolved and changed. The earliest document relating to the Dog and Bell Public House in Deptford is an 1802 Baptism register entry for Sarah Cooper that gives the family's address as Dogg Street. Other documents refer to Dog Street, but the name was slowly corrupted to Dock Street. It is now the eastern end of Prince Street. The Dog and Bell after 2 or 3 periods as The Royal Marine is still there today, (or it was when I left about 14 hours ago).
I have never come across the name Butts Street before but many names came and went (some after a very short time) over the years.
New Butt Lane is an odd little road in two parts that came into existance in the 1970s. The northern part links Reginald Road and Hales Street and was part of a planned, but never completed, service road to the east of the High Street. The southern part forms part of the small council estate to the south of Reginald Road.
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Hi all,
Bill, no need to apologise about "my" 1850 map.
Just throwing the "info" into the pot for consideration.
If I hadn't thrown it in, and you spotting it, then I wouldn't be able to say thanks for the info update and a new link to follow about Deptford.
Cheers!
Ray