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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: phipps1 on Tuesday 22 February 11 09:35 GMT (UK)
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The following firms had dealings with my Gt.Grandfather,Thomas Milward (Millward) prior to his death in November 1920.
Do these firms exist in any form anymore ?
1. S.T.Lucas,Valuers & Auctioneers,Swansea,6 Rutland Street,Swansea,established 1885, valued contents of GGFs house at 1 Brunswick place,148 St.Helens Rd, Swansea in 1919.
2. Messrs Roberts & Son.,- valued my GGFs motor car in 1921 for Estate purposes, a 4 seater Renault.
Any assistance or guidance is much appreciated.
Thank you !
phipps
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Hi Phipps...me again ;D
I can't find anything on S T Lucas Swansea.
I found a R K Lucas Haverfordwest.
I gave them a bell and asked the History of the Company as it was extablished 200 years ago and I thought might be handed down .
They very kindly are going to ask the owner to go over his family Tree to see if he can find a Link with the Company you are interested in.
They will ring me back sometime to-morrow.
Ambers
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They very kindly are going to ask the owner to go over his family Tree to see if he can find a Link with the Company you are interested in.
They will ring me back sometime to-morrow.
Ambers
You are precious Ambers. I am very grateful to you for making that enquiry. I look forward to getting the result of their search.
Your time and energy is so very much appreciated !
Kind reagards,
phipps
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Hi Phipps,
Sorry, but they didn't get back to me to-day. :-\
The nearest I can find is an Arthur Stucley Thomas Lucas, Auctioneer/Valuer in the 1901. Transcribed, says Thomas, original looks more like Tristam.
I spotted Thomas Milwards Will (Wow £49,264 17s a lot of money in 1920)
I wondered about the address ! Brunswick Place and 148 St Helens Road, was his business next door to his home. ???
I can only find Brunswick Street on Goggle, but Brunswick Place did exist.
Ambers
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Hi Phipps,
Sorry, but they didn't get back to me to-day. :-\
The nearest I can find is an Arthur Stucley Thomas Lucas, Auctioneer/Valuer in the 1901. Transcribed, says Thomas, original looks more like Tristam.
I spotted Thomas Milwards Will (Wow £49,264 17s a lot of money in 1920)
I wondered about the address ! Brunswick Place and 148 St Helens Road, was his business next door to his home. ???
I can only find Brunswick Street on Goggle, but Brunswick Place did exist.
Ambers
Hi Ambers,never mind,but what you found sounds promising as the document I once saw said the firm was established in 1885.
Yes,the estate was large for the time.Sadly,my estranged Grandfather ,and his heir,my father's whack was about 5000 pounds drip fed over 55 years,only ending when the last beneficiary fell.
148 St.Helens Road is 1 Brunswick Place I believe. My GGF had a 3 storey end of the row,corner of the street house and it was his home and his office for his engineering consulting business. I read in the Western Mail that he bought that house at auction in February 1881 for 1,260 pounds.
I was told by a neice of Lily Milward that when Lily died in that house in December 1970,it was in a hugely bad state of repair.Lily was not left the house by my GGF so she secretly bought it from the Exceutors to save face with her neighbours.
In the 1881 auction notice,from memory,the house was described as being 1 Brunswick Place,so I think it became 148 St. Helens Road later.The houses are,I think set back from the road with a small garden in front,facing the road.I was told that house is now a Solicitor's offices.
Thank you for your help and time.I appreciate it very much !
Kind regards,
phipps
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I have just spoken to the lady, they can't find any connection to their family business.
She suggested you search: Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors via.
www.Swansea.gov.uk ...now why didn't we think of that ::)
There is a Company called Lucas & Madley in Cardiff. It's a possibility as he came from Cardiff originally and this Company might have amalgamated over the years gaining the name Madley.
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I see what you mean about the dual address. My own road is similar with the house on the corner facing one road with side entrance on my road, it's hard to work out what the address should be ::)
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With a Bank Manager living with her, maybe she took a leaf out of her mothers book and decided to let out to make some money....and gaining free advice. Her Will would be the answer as to how close they were, that's if he outlived her. Those houses are huge and many of the other residents let out part of them to others.
Ambers
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I have just spoken to the lady, they can't find any connection to their family business.
She suggested you search: Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors via.
www.Swansea.gov.uk ...now why didn't we think of that ::)
There is a Company called Lucas & Madley in Cardiff. It's a possibility as he came from Cardiff originally and this Company might have amalgamated over the years gaining the name Madley.
Ambers
Ambers,that's great.Thank you for your wonderful assistance.You have given me a new focus.
Actually Lily was my GGFs widow.They had no children. She outlived Mr Thomas by how many years I do not know,but she did outlive him.
Lily also outlived my GGF by 50 years and 1 month.
Certainly when Lily's neice came to the house after Lily died,she says that Lily had been living in the dining room on the ground floor-had been doing it for years,had locked all the doors upstairs on the other 2 floors because she believed people were stealing from her,and it took 3 weeks to clear the house.The kitchen was overrun with rats,there was no running water,the roof was in disrepair, and so on.
I thank you so very much for your kindness.
Respectfully,
phipps
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What a shame for a grand old house to end up in that state, poor Lily must have been struggling.
I wonder how much she had to pay the Executor to remain in her home....must have cost her a pretty penny.
Thomas Milward appears to have connections with Bristol as I have seen two of his relatives staying on census night listed as being born Bristol.
Ambers
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What a shame for a grand old house to end up in that state, poor Lily must have been struggling.
I wonder how much she had to pay the Executor to remain in her home....must have cost her a pretty penny.
Thomas Milward appears to have connections with Bristol as I have seen two of his relatives staying on census night listed as being born Bristol.
Ambers
Hi Ambers,yes, I think she lived too long and the Trust moneys dwindled and lost value.
She was a bit of a socialite according to her neice so maybe she spent above her means for too long too.
She bargained down the Executors,"The Public Trustee,London" for the car ( a Renault)probate valued at 400 pounds,getting it for 300 pounds- ,She did the same for the house, probate valued at 2,150 pound got it for much less,( I have the figure but can't find it in what papers I still have here with me), and she did the same as for the house contents that S.T.Lucas had valued at 780 pounds-she got for 716 pounds 7/6.-All bought by way of a calculated deduction from her 400 pound pa tax free allowance.
These actions soured already strained relations as between her and all the other beneficieries ,and from that time on,she was referred to as " The Lily".
Ambers,I have never seen any census returns for 1 Brunswick Place,148 St. Helens Road,and though I know my GGF bought it at auction in 1881 for 1,260 pounds,I have not been able to determine when he started using it has his own residence.In 1881,Thomas Milward owned and was living at Norton Lodge,a Georgian "Big House" at Oystermouth.
I have no knowledge of "Bristol born Milwards".Do you still have their names and the year of their census night stay ? I would like to see where the Bristol Milwards figure if possible.
I really appreciate your time on and with this.You are very kind !
Kind regards,
phipps
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Hi Phipps
I have just noticed the number of the house...No 39 St Helens Road.
1901
Thomas Milward/49/Widower/Civil Engineer, Glamorgan
Edna V Propeyshir /23/widow/ Lady Keeper (that's odd) Somerset, Bristol
Louie Jones//26/ Servant/ Swansea.
As there is a Servant, I am not sure of Edna's status in his home.
We are not allowed to do Look-up's for 1911 because of Copyright.
You can access the information at Find my Past, the Search Index is Free and then purchase Credits to view the original.
I have a host of scribbled notes about your family but don't think I was able to find Thomas in 1891, who was his previous wife?
Ambers
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Hi Phipps
I have just noticed the number of the house...No 39 St Helens Road.
1901
Thomas Milward/49/Widower/Civil Engineer, Glamorgan
Edna V Propeyshir /23/widow/ Lady Keeper (that's odd) Somerset, Bristol
Louie Jones//26/ Servant/ Swansea.
As there is a Servant, I am not sure of Edna's status in his home.
We are not allowed to do Look-up's for 1911 because of Copyright.
You can access the information at Find my Past, the Search Index is Free and then purchase Credits to view the original.
I have a host of scribbled notes about your family but don't think I was able to find Thomas in 1891, who was his previous wife?
Ambers
Ambers,thank you for this information. I appreciate it very much !
I am confused about the number "39". I always knew GGfs address to be either 1 Brunswick Place or 148 St. Helens Road,or both.That's curious.Maybe he had yet another house.
If it was the 148 St.Helens Rd,it was a big place,so maybe he needed a House Keeper type and a servant too. I know he had a chauffeur for his car but don't know when he bought his Renault.That man lived in the loft above one of the three garages in the side street part of the house.
The interior of the house that S.T.Lucas did an inventory of in 1919 and which I have a copy is described as ~
Basement: 2 large basements.
Ground floor: Yard 1st area/ Yard 2nd area / Scullery / Housemaid and china pantry / Kitchen / Entrance hall / Dning Room / Sitting Room / Breakfast Room /
Stairs ( 1st) and Lower Hall. /
1st Floor : Front bedroom / Landing / 2nd bedroom / outer passage landing / Bathroom / Store Cupboard / Large Office / Drawing Room / 2nd Stairs .
2nd floor : Landing - 2nd floor / Top Front bedroom / Back Bedroom / Top stairs.
3rd Floor : Bedroom / Top front room / Attic access.
I'm thinking it all might have been too much for just one servant !
The thing that really worries me is he is listed as a widower in 1901.If he is my Thomas Milward,he was not a widower until the 4th August 1910 when his separated wife of independent means, Sarah Ann Milward ( Morgan) died at Essex.They never divorced !
Then in May 1913,my GGF married Lily Murphy from Devon.He died in 1920 and Lily died in 1970.
In 1891,I think GGF was already estranged from his wife.She got a separation order in C 1892 .
In 1887 Norton Lodge,Oystermouth,the family home since 1876 was absolutely gutted by fire,only the walls stood while my GGF was in London .The Milwards and servants escaped unharmed but things went very sour after that I am told and GGF lived in Bryn Road and other places in Swansea. I have no idea where Sarah Ann,my grandfather and the other children lived in the 1890s.
I understand that you are not permitted to do look ups for 1911. I will , when I return to Australia,access " find my past" and subscribe.That's a very good idea.
Thank you so much for your time spent on me.I am very grateful.
Respectfully,
phipps
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What an interesting family you have.
It wouldn't be unusual for someone to say that they were a Widower after a long period of separation.
Did your Thomas have a middle initial of T?
Ambers
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What an interesting family you have.
It wouldn't be unusual for someone to say that they were a Widower after a long period of separation.
Did your Thomas have a middle initial of T?
Ambers
Oh ! I didn't know that Ambers, so thank you.
Yes,Thomas had the middle name "Talbot" but this is not a given name by his parents ,nor was he baptised with that name,nor do any legal documents I have ever seen have that name upon them. It seems it only raised its head at the time of Lily marrying him,but it could have been used earlier by him. Thomas's British Passport in 1905 also has no mention of that name so I think it must be an informal one.
Thank you so much for that question and the explanation.Is that,(widower), also a custom that exists today do you think ?
A neice of Lily's told me some years ago that she was Catholic and he was nominal C of E, and that she insisted he take a "baptism name" so he chose "Talbot" or she chose it. The neice also told me that Lily would only call him by that name- " Talbot".
Respectfully,
phipps
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I have just noticed the number of the house...No 39 St Helens Road.
1901
Thomas Milward/49/Widower/Civil Engineer, Glamorgan
Edna V Propeyshir /23/widow/ Lady Keeper (that's odd) Somerset, Bristol
Louie Jones//26/ Servant/ Swansea.
As there is a Servant, I am not sure of Edna's status in his home.
It's 37 St Helen's Road, and Edna was Single, a Visitor, Lady Help? Dom, Worker, born Bristol
RG13 Piece 5075 Folio 86 Page 26
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In 1891,I think GGF was already estranged from his wife.She got a separation order in C 1892 .
1891 Census Clinel? Tower, Christchurch Rd, East Cliff, Bournemouth
Thomas Milward Head age 46 Civil Engineer born Cardiff
Sarah A Milward Wife age 47 born Fishguard
Frank S Milward Son age 18 Medical Student born Swansea
Mabel C Milward Dau age 15 Scholar born Swansea
Christine M Milward Dau age 14 Scholar born Swansea
Sidney A Milward Son age 11 Scholar born Swansea
Thomas H Milward Son age 11 Scholar born Swansea
Stafford HR Milward age 4 born Swansea
plus
Ebenezer and Alice Parker Visitors from Birmingham
Eliza MacMillan age 40 Servant Cook
Matilda Millard age 16 Housemaid
RG12 Piece 903 Folio 62 Page 13
I assume you have them in 1881 at 3 Norton Cross, Oystermouth Parish?
RG11 Piece 5367 Folio 30 Page 26
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Hi morgan,Now that is a revelation.Just goes to show one,doesn't it !
Yes,I have the 1881 census for Norton Lodge.
Thank you for this information.I will have to do a rethink now.
Kind regards,
phipps
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Hi Phipps
You ask about
'2. Messrs Roberts & Son.,- valued my GGFs motor car in 1921 for Estate purposes, a 4 seater Renault.
I believe that this may have been my G Grandfather's company, Ivor L Roberts. He had a large car and motorcycle salesroom in Oxford Street, Swansea, and was a dealer for Renault cars in the '20s and '30s.
Sadly his son, also Ivor, was killed in Singapore during the second world war. I'm not sure when the business closed, but it was certainly still going in the '50s when my parents met, although it had moved premises, to Mansel Street, by then.
Regards
lizholt
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Hi Phipps
You ask about
'2. Messrs Roberts & Son.,- valued my GGFs motor car in 1921 for Estate purposes, a 4 seater Renault.
I believe that this may have been my G Grandfather's company, Ivor L Roberts. He had a large car and motorcycle salesroom in Oxford Street, Swansea, and was a dealer for Renault cars in the '20s and '30s.
Sadly his son, also Ivor, was killed in Singapore during the second world war. I'm not sure when the business closed, but it was certainly still going in the '50s when my parents met, although it had moved premises, to Mansel Street, by then.
Regards
lizholt
Hi lizholt, Thank you so much for that information.That gives me a new focus and I appreciate your time and kindness.
Kind regards,
phipps