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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: brynsmum on Sunday 20 February 11 17:36 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have just got copies of two wills and they are indecipherable to me apart from odd words. I am not computer literate and don't have a clue as to how to post them on the forum - so would any one be willing to PM me with an e-mail address so that I can forward them to you for the purpose of deciphering. I only want just the salient parts ie, names, places, bequests, anything interesting like occupations.
I am willing to pay and hope that someone can help me.
and please MODERATORS, I hope I haven't broken any rules.
Thanks to anyone that can help..
June
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Hi June,
I don't think you need to pay anyone to get your transcription done.
If someone is willing to break your wills into postable-size files,
the people on the deciphering board will be very happy to help with
the transcription.
A way to contribute to the running costs of Rootschat is simply to
click on some of the hosted adverts, as I believe Rootschat receives
some revenue for each click-through.
V V
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Thank you VV . Problem with that is how do I get it on postable size bits?
Sorry, I'm a computer thicko. This is about my limit.
June
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You will need access to a scanner in order to break them down into suitable sized parts. If you are downloading them then obviously save the file on your computer and download a program like Irfanview (Free) It is very easy to use so you should have no difficulty. If you do get stuck, there are many willing helpers on this site.
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Hi June,
I will send you my email by PM if you would like to forward them to me. Fingers crossed I should be able to post them on here for you.
Can't promise to do it straight away, but please bear with me.
Added : Message sent, will you please give me a nudge by PM so I know to check if the images have arrived.
Pels.
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Please remember that the complete will is probably subject to copyright (especially if downloaded from TNA) and therefore you should only post small sections for assistance with deciphering. These sections should never amount to the whole document.
Thanks.
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Thanks all of you for the help and also the information about copyright infringement.
A pity the TNA dont offer a transcription service with the wills. I'd gladly have taken that up.
All the best June
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Hi Pels
I've tried to PM you 3 times but I keep getting a message . Unable to send PM to Pels as Max PM limit reached . I've emptied my Inbox and Outbox, but still can't send it.
Not sure why. Now you all know I really am a computer thicko..!!!!
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Hi June
Send the PM to Pels. - Pels with a dot not Pels :)
Lots of people make that mistake!
Also, in Adobe, you can use the snip tool - the little camera icon - and draw around the section. This copies the section to your clipboard. Then transfer it to a graphics program (Paint, Irfanview, etc) using ctrl and V or Paste and save as a jpg.
JL
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It's me again.
Haven't had time to look at the download, but I have received your email June and will hopefully sort it out later !! Cheers JL. !! :)
Please remember that the complete will is probably subject to copyright (especially if downloaded from TNA) and therefore you should only post small sections for assistance with deciphering. These sections should never amount to the whole document.
Thanks.
I'll be very careful, thanks for the reminder though ! :) :)
Pels.
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Thanks Pels. I really appreciate this.
Thanks also for the advice about how to use the Adobe software. I will try that some time when I feel brave.
June
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Hi June,
I hope this is alright and people can read it, not sure whether I've posted too much - but will check to be on the safe side. It can always be reduced.
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I Thomas Reid of Castle Street ffalcon Square in the City of London surgeon do make publish and ordaine this my last Will and Testament I give unto my ffather Thomas Reid my Mother in law Ann ffulton my Brother Captain Robert ffulton the sum of five pounds each for a Ring each and also to my friends John Siddars? Nicholas and James Boyle the sum of five pounds each for a ring each and hope and trust my other dear friends will not consider it any slight my not giving them a token of my respect as it was only in consequence? of my small fortune and of my dear and affectionate wife that I have not done so (much – crossed out) I give unto my brother Robert Reid all my clothes and wearing apparel I give unto my Sister in law Ann Bell ffulton the sum of one hundred Guineas of lawful British money and I direct all the above legacies to be paid as soon as conveniently can be after my decease I give and bequeath all the residue and remainder of my Estate and Effects of what nature or kind soever unto my dear and affectionate Wife Eliza ffulton for her own use & benefit (after paying of my debts funeral expenses and the aforesaid pecuniary legacies) I nominate and appoint the said John Siddars ? Nicholas and Harry Cook of the Adelphi Executors of this my Will and I do hereby revoke all former and other Wills In witness whereof I have to this my Will set my hand and seal this twentieth day of June in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty five – Thomas Reid (?) signed, sealed, published and ?? in the presence of Rd Harris, Pentonville, James Bateman – Southampton Buildings
There are a couple of bits I am not sure of but hopefully someone can revise it!
Judy
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I'm well impressed Judy ! :D :D
Not sure if June needs this :
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Judy, just one small thing - the double f - 'ff' was the equivalent of our capital 'F' :D
Jennifer
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Proved at Lawton 4th July 1825 before the (?) John Doe? Dr of Law (??) by the oaths of John Siddiars (in the will written Siddairs) Nicholas and Harry Cook Esqs the Execs to whom admon was granted been first sworn only to administrator
Best I can do Pels!
hopefully someone can fill in the gaps!
Hi Jen :D Yes, but it looks more archaic to write it as they did LOL
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Here you go :
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In the name of God Amen I Villeter Rohleder of Upton Place In the County of Essex Widow being weak in body but of sound and disposing mind and memory thanks be to God for the same hereby revoking all former Wills by me heretofore made do declare this only to be my last in manner following (that is to say) first I give and bequeath unto Walter Wilcock of Great Suffolk Street in the borough of Southwark Patten and Last Maker and Thomas Gibson of Saint John street Clerkenwell Wine merchant and to the survivor of them and to the heirs executors and administrators of such survivor (my Executors hereinafter named) the sum of seven hundred pounds in the three portions? now continuous? standing in my name in the Books of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England upon trust from and immediately after my decease to pay the interest dividends and annual proceeds thereof as the same shall become due and be payable unto my Niece Mary Clarkson for (??) during the term of her natural life and from and immediately after her decease upon trust to be (??) I give and bequeath the same principal sum of seven hundred pounds unto and equally amongst William Clarkson and Letitia Clarkson (the Nephew and Niece of the said Mary Clarkson) their heirs and assigns absolutely and for ever and I do give and bequeath the sum of three hundred pounds three per (??) also standing in my name the Book of the said Governor and Company of the Bank of England unto the said Walter Wilcock and Thomas Gibson as aforesaid upon trust immediately after my decease to be paid the interest dividends and annual (??) thereof as the same shall being
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Oh heck - you'd better stop a minute, the second one I have is for someone called Conrad Rohleder from Essex !
We'd better wait till June gets back to us on this - I'm so sorry.
Added : That name looks like Rohleder to me ?
Pels.
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I think the surname Rohleder is the common denominator in the two wills June wanted. You might have to forget the Thomas Reid one !
Pels. :-[
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After Thomas Reid's name are the letters LS meaning 'the place of the seal' the first word of the last line in that snippet is 'declared.'
I also think the name is John Liddiard rather than Siddars.
Nell
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June,
Have a look at the transcriptions together with the originals and see if they begin to make sense. These things often follow a rather formulaic pattern and once you can recognise the pattern, it does become easier. Promise! :)
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After Thomas Reid's name are the letters LS meaning 'the place of the seal' .
Nell
Gosh, that is very interesting! I had never heard of that. Must remember for future reference.
Thanks Nell.
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Proved at London 4th July 1825 before the wor[shi]pf[ul] John Lee Dr of Laws & Surr[ogate]
by the oaths of John Liddiard (in the Will written Liddaird) Nicholas & Harry Cook Esq
the Ex[ecut]ors to whom admon was granted having been first sworn only to administer.
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I think the last words of the probate clause are " duly to administer" rather than "only to administer"
Nell
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I think the last words of the probate clause are " duly to administer" rather than "only to administer"
Nell
Absolutely right Nell, my fault, I've just been out for a few glasses of dinner. :)
Earlier, there was signed sealed published and declare[d]
Just catching up on the other posts - are we looking at the wrong will?
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Just catching up on the other posts - are we looking at the wrong will?
not sure!! Brynsmum isn't on line at the moment. She sent Pels three wills, but didn't say which two were hers, so Pels is waiting until she comes on line again to check with her.
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Just catching up on the other posts - are we looking at the wrong will?
I've an awful feeling Thomas Reid might have been thrown into the equation purely to confuse me. I'm waiting for confirmation from June before I post anymore ! ;D ;D
Thanks Judy ! :)
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No worries, it's all good practice. ;D ;D
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Judy That really is amazing. However the bits that I wanted were from different wills. Unfortunately
the wills just come in long lists. Mine are sandwiched between others. I am so sorry that your efforts were in vain but - really so appreciated.
Thanks June
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Everyone, I'm so grateful. My apologies for not being available this evening.
The two wills I need help with are for Conrad Rohleder and Viollett Rohleder.. I'm really sorry, I should have made that clear to Pels who has been so helpful..
I cannot believe how you do it, you all make it look so easy.
Thanks again, so appreciated
June
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.For Little Nell
a really good suggestion - that I compare the originals with the transcriptions. That way, I might get as good as everyone else. (NOT).]
June
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Hi June :D
If you look again you will see that I have done the will for Villeter Rohleder - well, most of it.
Now we know that it is one that you want, Pels will be able to post the rest of it and the Conrad Rohleder one too.
Judy
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Hi Judy
My apologies, I must have been a bit cross eyed last night. I did miss that it was Violettas will. I thought it was a continuation of Thomas Reid's.
Thank you very much. How did you learn to read lettering like this? Just practice or did you do some sort of course?
Anyway, it's a talent worth having in family research.
I can't tell you how glad I am that there are people willing to help each other.
Cheers to you and Pels ( & others);
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Hi June :D
Practise!
It was quite easy to read really, except for a few bits I couldn't make out - I hope someone else will come along and help with them.
Glad you were pleased with it!
Judy
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Violletta was Conrad's second wife and they married late in life (1814) so I didn't expect names of children. I assume as the money appears to have been Conrad's that his will will show dispersal to children that he had from his first marriage and that's going to be the key in my research. (I hope).
Thanks again
June
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Hi June,
Here is my attempt at the first part of Villeter's will.
I will highlight where I see it slightly differently from oldtimer
( reply #17 ) or in answering a query oldtimer left open.
I believe the reference to 3 per cent is to a gilt-edged security known as
Consolidated Loan Stock, often referred to as Consols.
In the name of God Amen I
Villeter Rohleder of Upton Place In the County of Essex Widow being weak in body
but of sound and disposing mind and memory thanks be to God for the same hereby revoking
all former Wills by me heretofore made do declare this only to be my last in manner
following (that is to say) first I give and bequeath unto Walter Wilcock of No 1 Great Suffolk
Street in the Borough of Southwark Patten and Last Maker and Thomas Gibson of Saint John
Street Clerkenwell Wine Merchant and to the survivor of them and to the heirs executors and
administrators of such survivor (my
Executors hereinafter named) the sum of seven hundred pounds in the three per cents now
standing in my name in the Books of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England upon
trust from and immediately after my decease to pay the interest dividends and annual proceeds
thereof as the same shall become due and be payable unto my Niece Mary Clarkson for and
during the term of her natural life and from and immediately after her decease upon trust to
pass and I give and bequeath the same principal sum of seven hundred pounds unto and equally
amongst William Clarkson and Letitia Clarkson (the Nephew and Niece of the
said Mary Clarkson) their heirs and assigns absolutely and for ever and I give and bequeath
the sum of three hundred pounds three per Cents also standing in my name the Books
of the said Governor and Company of the Bank of England unto the said Walter Wilcock
and Thomas Gibson as aforesaid upon trust immediately after my decease to pay the
interest dividends and annual proceeds thereof as the same shall become due and be payable
vv.
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Thanks VV :D
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Follow on from the above :
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And more :
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Finally, as far as I can see for this one :
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Here is my effort re reply #37.
I don't like the name 'Nathias'. Is it possible the court scribe miscopied 'Matthias'
from the original will?
Slightly different wording for Ellen's legacy. She gets 'benefit' instead of 'use',
perhaps she was a minor?
unto or for the benefit of the said William Clarkson during his apprenticeship and when
and as soon as the said William Clarkson shall have attained the age of twenty five
years upon trust to pay and I give and bequeath the same sum of three hundred
pounds unto the said William Clarkson for his own absolute use and disposal and
I give and bequeath unto my Nephew James Nathias Sackett the sum of one
hundred pounds for his own absolute use and disposal and I give unto John James
Sackett Son of the said James Nathias Sackett the sum of fifty pounds for his own
absolute use and disposal and I give unto my Niece Ellen Jackson the sum of fifty
pounds for her own absolute benefit and disposal and I give and bequeath unto
Charlotte Gibson the now Wife of the said Thomas Gibson the sum of one hundred
pounds for her own absolute use and disposal and I give the like sum of one hundred
pounds unto Ann Turner the Wife of John Turner of Mile End New Road in the County of
vv.
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Forename Surname Former Surname Profession Place Will Date Probate Date Note
Conrad Rohleder GENTLEMAN Westham, Essex 29 September 1820 4 July 1822
Villeter Rohleder Humphrys Humphreys ? Upton Place, Essex 20 June 1825 4 July 1825 otherwise Vilete or Villete or Vilette or Violeta or Violett
just for interest
sylvia
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Re reply #38.
an insertion slightly out of place:
And I also give and bequeath unto the said Letitia Clarkson the sum of one hundred
pounds for her own absolute use and disposal.
Then:
of Middlesex Brewer for her own absolute use and disposal and it is my will that the said
five last mentioned legacies given to the said James Nathias Sackett John James Sackett
Ellen Jackson Charlotte Gibson Ann Turner and
Letitia Clarkson shall be payable within six months next after my decease and as to all the rest
residue and remainder of my monies goods plate linen china books household furniture and
all other my Personal and Chattel Estate and Effects whatsoever and wheresoever and
what nature or description soever the same may consist (except the fixtures in and about the
house and premises in which I now dwell which I will and desire may go and be enjoyd
with the leasehold estate and inheritance thereof) I give and bequeath unto my said Niece
the said Mary Clarkson her heirs and assigns absolutely and forever (subject to the payment of
the two legacies hereinafter mentioned) all which foregoing legacies make the sum of one
thousand and five hundred pounds the sum now standing in my name in the said three
per Cents and it is my will and desire that the said legatees respectively or their respective
executors administrators or assigns shall be entitled to receive what money each respective
legacy hereinbefore given shall produce at the time the same may be sold out or transferred
and I give to each of my Executors hereinafter named the sum of twenty pounds to be paid to
them their executors administrators or assigns within six calendar months next after my
decease and it is my will that the legacies given to the said Mary Clarkson Letitia
Clarkson Ellen Jackson Charlotte Gibson and Ann Turner respectively shall not subject
to the debts control or enslavement of their prevail or any future husband which they or any
of them may respectively have but that their own respective receipts shall be good
discharges for the same as thought she and they respectively were sole and unmarried
and I do nominate constitute and appoint the said Walter Wilcock and the said Thomas
Gibson executors of this my Will and do declare that they or either of them shall
vv.
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Re reply #39.
not be answerable for any more money or effects than what shall actually come into
their or either of their hands by virtue of this my Will that they may reimburse themselves
respectively all costs charges damages & expenses which they or either of them may
sustain or be put unto in the execution or performance of the trusts hereof and that
the one shall not be answerable to the other of them but each of them for himself his
executors and administrators only amd I will and hereby authorise and empower my
said Executors and the survivor of them and the Executor and Executors of this my
Will for the time being to to sell out or transfer ant such Stock and to reinvest the
same when and as often as it shall be requisite and adviseable so to do In witness
whereof I have to this my last Will & testament set my hand and seal this seventeenth
day of June in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twenty five
Vilete Roleder LS signed sealed published and declared by the said
Villeter Rohleder the Testatrix as and for her last Will and Testament in the presence
of us who in her presence at her request and in the presence of each other have
hereunto subscribed our names as Witnesses Jno. Otway Clerk to Mr
Dacre Solr Stratford George Honnor Servant to Mrs Rohleder
vv.
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:) :) :) :) :)
VV
What can I say? You are an absolute star. I can't tell you how grateful I am to you, Judy, Nell and Pels. (and anyone I've missed)...
I hope you don't think I'm impossing but Pels is going to Post Conrad's later - and it begins again.
I will learn how to do it for myself, I promise.
June
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June - you aren't the only one who's impressed ! :) :)
To be perfectly honest, you do start to understand it eventually - but it takes an awful lot of concentration and skill, therefore I take my hat off to anyone who can read it !!
Pels.
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I'll post the next two images, this time it's the turn of Conrad Rohleder :
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And the second :
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June,
No problem. I think once you start comparing other people's work
against the original document, you will be surprised how quickly
the words begin to stand out.
vv.
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Re reply #46.
Willcock in the other will seems to appear as Willcox here.
This is the Last Will and Testament of me Conrad
Rohledor of Upton Place in the Parish of Westham in the County of Essex
Gentleman First I direct that all my just debts and funeral and testamentary
expenses be paid and satisfied and after payment thereof I give and bequeath
unto Walter Willcox of Great Suffolk Street Southwark in the County of
Surry Last maker and Thomas Gibson of Islington in the County of
Middlesex Gentleman my Executors hereinafter named the sum of one hundred
pounds each of lawful money for the trouble which they may have in the
vv.
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Re reply #47.
Doesn't seem to follow on from the previous
bequeath unto my Daughter Ann Maria Rohleder and Margaret
Rohleder the sum of Five hundred pounds each of like five per cent navy
annuities also now standing in my name as aforesaid to and for their respective
uses I give and bequeath unto my said Wife Violet Rohleder All that my
leasehold messuage & tenement and premises wherein I now reside situate
in Upton Place aforesaid And all my estate and interest (subject to the payment
of the rent due and payable for the same) for and during the term of her
natural life And from and immediately after her decease I give and bequeath
the same unto Charlotte Gibson the wife of the said Thomas Gibson of Islington
aforesaid Gentleman and her assigns (subject as aforesaid) for and during the
term of her natural life And from and immediately after her decease I give
and bequeath the same subject as aforesaid unto and equally amongst all and
every the Child and Children of the said Charlotte Gibson share and share
alike as tenants in common and not as joint tenants if more than one and if
there shall be only one such Child then to such only Child And as to all the
rest residue and remainder of my estate and effects whatsoever whether consisting
vv.
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:) :) :) :) :) :)
VV
You'd be so proud of me!! I looked at the bit on the printed original you said didn't seem to follow on and I can sort of make out a bequest to his son of 2000 pounds in 5 per cent navy annuities that are part of a larger amount now standing in his account at the governors and company of the Bank of England.
No way would I ever have got that without your help and it's only because the words are used over again.
Thank you so much
June
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Nice one June! There isn't a smiley for "chest bursting with pride"
so have some of these instead: :) :D :D ;D ;D ;D
vv.
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Oh well done June !! :D :D :D
I'm sorry about the couple of parts that have been missed out vv - the image isn't straight and I'm having a nightmare trying to make sense out of it and then join it together.
Here are another two :
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Nearly there, before long June will be an expert and transcribing the words for other people ! :) :) :)
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If it's you Pels I hope you have a wonderful day. xx
As for transcribing for others I think not, not yet and not for a long while!!!!! What I did I really copied from what VV had already done.
You are right though, once you understand what you're looking at is not ancient writings, you can begin to decipher odd little words.
Thank you so much for what you've done for me. I'm seriously grateful and aware of how woefully ignorant I am computer wise.
If you ever need look ups or graveyard visits or anything Lancashire/Cheshire let me know. I'll
gladly oblige.
Thanks
June
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re reply #53.
No worries Pels, I only mentioned it on the remote chance it has escaped
your notice. :)
of monies in the Funds or otherwise and of what nature or quality soever
that I shall be possessed of interested in or be any ways entitled unto I give
and bequeath the same unto the said Walter Willcox and Thomas Gibson
and the survivor of them and the executors or administrators of such surv[iv]or
upon trust to sell and dispose of collect and get in and receive the same and
to invest the same and every part thereof in some or one of the Parliamentary
stocks of this Kingdom at interest in the names of them the said Walter
Willcox and Thomas Gibson or the survivor of them or the executors or adm[inistrat]ors
of such survivor upon the trusts and to and for the uses intents and purposes
hereinafter declared of and concerning the same that is to say upon trust to
pay the interest dividends proceeds and profits thereof as the same shall from
time to time become due and be received unto my said Wife Violet Rohleder or
otherwise her assigns or permit and suffer her to receive the same for her own use and
benefit for and during the term of her natural life and from and immediately
after her decease I give and bequeath the same as follows I give and bequeath
to the several persons hereinafter named the sums of money following that
is to say I give and bequeath unto my niece Jane Rohleder of Dundee in North
Britain Singlewoman the sum of two hundred pounds of like money to and for
her own use and benefit to Ann Rohleder of Dundee aforesaid Singlewoman
the like sum of two hundred pounds of like money to and for her own use and
benefit to Elizabeth Rohleder and Jane Rohleder daughter of Rachael
Rohleder of John Street Whitechapel in the County of Middlesex Widow
the like sum of two hundred pounds each of like money to and for their
respective uses To Mary Clarkson the niece of my said Wife Violet
Rohleder who is now residing with me the sum of Five hundred pounds five
per cent navy annuities now standing in my name as aforesaid to and for her
own use and benefit and to Sarah Elty of Ratcliff Highway in the County of
Middlesex aforesaid Singlewoman the sum of one hundred pounds of like money
to and for her own use and benefit And as to all the rest & residue of my said
estate and effects and the stocks or Funds in which the same shall be invested
as aforesaid i give and bequeath the same unto such persons or persons
and in such parts shares and proportions as my said Wife Violet Rohleder
by her last Will and Testament in writing or any writing purporting to be
vv.
P.S. Two lines up from the bottom, it ends 'persons or persons'. Presumably
the writer intended 'person or persons'.
Correction above per brynsmum.
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re reply #54.
or being in the nature of such or any Codicil or Codicils thereto to
be respectively signed by her in the presence of and attested by two or more credible witnesses
shall direct or appoint to receive the same and I do hereby nominate
constitute and appoint my said dear Wife Violet Rohleder the said Walter
Willcox and the said Thomas Gibson Executrix and Executors of this my last
Will and Testament Provided and my will is that my said trustees and Executrix and Executors
hereinbefore named and the survivor of them and the executors and adm[inistrat]ors of
such survivor shall and may at all times in the first place reimburse and
indemnify themselves herself and himself respectively and deduct and retain
out of the said trust premises respectively all such costs charges damages and
expenses as they or either of them shall or may at any time expend lay out
and be put unto for or by reason or intent of all or any or either of the trusts
hereby in them reposed and that neither of them shall be answerable for
any loss which may happen to any of the said trust premises unless such loss
happen through his or her wilful neglect or default nor out for the
other or others of them or for more monies than shall actually come to
each of their hands respectively but each and every of them shall be answerable
and accountable for his her and their own acts deeds receipts neglects and
defaults only And I do hereby revoke and make void all former and other
wills by me at any time heretofore made and do declare these presents only
to be and contain my last Will and Testament In Witness whereof I
the said Testator Conrad Rohleder have to this my last Will and Testament
contained
vv.
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:) :) :)
VV
I don't know how to thank you enough ( & Pels) for such help as you've given me. I can only say that it's a great thing that there are people around so willing to give of their time and effort.
Unlikely, but anything I cn ever do for you Lancashire/Cheshire, please let me know.
And I will promise to get a bit more computer savvy.
All the very best
June
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Hi June,
You're welcome. :)
Not sure if we are finished yet - dont remember seeing the legacy to the son which you
spotted in your copy.
vv.
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Hi VV
That was it, reply 51. That was basically what I saw ..
So I think that probably is it.
It appeared only to be two lines missing from what I could see - if there is more, I'll attempt to decipher it myself, but I'm pretty sure that was it.
You have taught me so much indirectly, I can't thank you enough.
I hope you enjoyed doing that, I suppose it must be quite satisfying to make sense of it. But thanks for staying up half the night for me!!
Take care, June xx
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Okey dokey, job done then.
Yes, I enjoy trying to read old documents, and I didn't lose any sleep!
If you have any trouble with what remains, or if you disagree anything
I have done, don't hesitate to come back.
Cheers,
vv.
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Never you mind okey dokey job done then ! Errr I think not !! :'( :'(
Stand by your beds - I don't think we've quite finished yet !
There's still one more small part ! Dear me ::) you just can't get the staff these days ! ;D ;D ;D
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The End.
:)
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Oh Dear.. I read contained at the bottom and assumed that meant what was intended was all 'contained within the document''.. Perhaps it means 'continued' ????
Thanks yet again Pels..
June
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??? ???
VV
If you're looking at all, shall I have a go. (Then you can all have a laugh)
June
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Go on !! :) :)
And we won't laugh ! :)
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Go for it June. :)
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Here goes :)
Contained in these sheets of paper ?? my hand and seal that is to say my hand to the two preceding ? and my hand and seal to this third and last sheet this twenty ? day of September one thousand eight hundred and twenty Conrad Rohleder LS. Signed ? published and ? by the said
testator CR as did ? his last will and testament in the presence of us who in his ? ? at his request
and in the presence of ? ? ?? subscribed our name as ? ? Ian Grant CR Mr Collingwood Southwark- Chace P--- 22 Upton Place West ham
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Proved at London 4th July 1822 before the worshipful? John? Dt of Sar--- Surrey by the --- of Violet Rohleder widow ??? Walter Willcox and Thomas Gibson the executors to whom ? was granted ????
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??? first ?????
Extracted from the Registry of the Prerogative Court of York.
??? ??? ??? ???
How's that.
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Now show me what it REALLY says please.
xx
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Excellent first effort, ;D ;D ;D and you were under pressure because we were waiting
for you to do it.
Here are my suggestions, the name of the second witness is a complete guess.
contained in three sheets of paper set my hand and seal that is to say my
hand to the two preceding sheets and my hand and seal to this third and last
sheet this twenty ninth day of September one thousand eight hundred and
twenty _ Conrad Rohleder L[ocus] S[igilli] Signed sealed published and declared by the said
Testator Conrad Rohleder as and for his last Will and Testament in the
presence of us who in his presence at his request and in the presence of
each other have subscribed our names as witnesses hereto Jas Grant Clk
to Mr Bollingwood Southwark Chau? Prat? 22 Upton Place Westham
Proved at London 4th July 1822 before the Worshipful John Haggard
Dr of Laws & Surr[ogat]e by the Oaths of Violet Rohleder Widow the Relict
Walter Willcox & Thomas Gibson the Executors to whom Admon was granted
hav[in]g been first sworn duly to adm[iniste]r
"Extracted from the Registry of the Prerogative Court of York" belongs to the
next document I guess, since Conrad's will was proved in London.
vv.
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Thanks for the praise but my admiration still goes to you. It is not easy!!
I'll look at yours against mine and see where I went wrong. Maybe if I get any more to do, I can make a fist of it.
VV (& you Pels)
Thank you so much for your great efforts on my behalf. I've learned a lot ..
All the very best both of you
June xxx
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Very late to the party I know, have been otherwise engaged; but could the second witness' name be Chas. Priat?
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Just enlarged the orignal Roger, I believe it says Chace Price.
Pels.
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Chace as an abbreviation for Chastity perhaps? But could a woman act as witness then? Personally I prefer Chas, though it is unclear. Have looked again and really can't see Price.
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Roger, trust me. If you enter the name into Ancestry you'd be surprised at how many there are ! :) :) I'm lucky enough to still have access to the copy of the original document, so I can enlarge it.
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I'd say that it is definitely Chace Price
JL
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Certainly convinced about Price, not so sure about Chace.
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c is the same in Chace as in Price :)
s in Wes is different
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To me it still looks different, but as the Medieval theologists argued how many angels could dance on a pin Head?Think we ought to agree to differ on this one.
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Yes, a woman could certainly be a witness Redroger.
I wondered about something like Chauncey, but don't even know if
it's a real name.
As a test, I originally looked for wills from the same source (TNA)
in Westham or West Ham. Two for Prat, none (anywhere) for Priat, although
that doesn't prove anything - I was just hoping to find a will for the
witness.
If there is a lower case c in each name of the second witness,
their shape is unique to the entire document. It seems to be the
same writer, just done in italics for emphasis, perhaps an italic c
does resemble our modern c, whereas the writer's upright c does not?
vv.
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:) :) :) :)
COMPLETED WITH SINCERE THANKS TO ALL WHO TOOK AN INTEREST AND HELPED GREATLY
:) :) :)