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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Limerick => Topic started by: isobel58 on Wednesday 16 February 11 15:09 GMT (UK)
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I have just found out that me g.g.g. grandfather was a doctor his name was Thomas Parkinson and he was married in Belfast to Agnes Fitzmaurice. He must have came to live in Glin, Co. Limerick around 1839-1845 because my g.g. grandfather Richard Parkinson was born there. I have Richard's death certificate in Scotland and census records for Scotland and on every one his year of birth is different hence 1839-1844. Would there be any baptismal records for this period for Glin or a Street Directory which would show Thomas as a doctor in Glin or surrounding areas. I would be so grateful if someone could point me in the right direction as where to look for my ancestors. Thank you Isobel
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Slater's directory of 1846 is available online, but Glin is quite a small town and I dont see a listing for it. The nearest town to Glin that I see listed is Tarbert, which is in Co. Kerry. Link - Slater's directory 1846 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater.htm)
There are some Medical listings in Thom's directory of 1848, and the section for medical practitioners of the Coombe Lying in Hospital includes a Thomas Parkinson, with no other details.
The listings of Apothecaries Hall's (also in the medical directory) includes another possible listing for him as 'T. Parkinson, M.D. (Glasg), M.R.C.S.L., Broadford'. Broadford is also in Co. Limerick and about 45 km south of Glin.
You would need to establish the family religion to check for a baptism in parish records.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
what wonderful information. Thank you so much for all your help and taking the time to do this for me. I really appreciate it all. Richard was Roman Catholic and all his children were brought up in Scotland as Roman Catholic. You have given me lots of information. I don't know the area at all so at a loss to work out where is where.
Would there be a Roman Catholic Church in Glin around that time?
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Unfortunately RC records for the parish of Glin (which includes the town) only go back to 1851 - see : RC Parish of Glin (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=West%20Limerick&parish=Glin&churchid=884) (Irish Times)
Shane
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Shane does M.R.C.S.L mean Member of the Royal College of Surgeons London? On his son's Richard's death certificate his father Thomas is listed as Army Surgeon???
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Shane does M.R.C.S.L mean Member of the Royal College of Surgeons London? On his son's Richard's death certificate his father Thomas is listed as Army Surgeon???
I believe so... I was just about to post that!
Shane
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Shane,
I contacted the Mitchell Library in Glasgow they should have records going on Saturday to have a look. Also will contact Glasgow University Medical School tomorrow. I have sent an email to Royal College of Surgeons in London. Will have to wait and see what comes up.
Thank you again, you've been great.
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Has Glin got a Roman Catholic Church from 1830-1840's that would hold original records?
Would Thomas's death be listed anywhere if he died in Glin or Ireland itself because he was a doctor?
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Has Glin got a Roman Catholic Church from 1830-1840's that would hold original records?
Would Thomas's death be listed anywhere if he died in Glin or Ireland itself because he was a doctor?
all the surviving historic records for the parish should have been filmed by the National Library... and they only have details back to 1851. Other sources of available records also mention the same starting date (e.g. Ryan's). Records are kept by parish, rather than by church. I presume the parish church in this case would have been in, or close to, the town, since it gave it's name to the parish.
The parish existed back to at least 1839, but it's possible that records for earlier years did not survive or that written records were simply not kept for the parish at the time.
There would only be as official death record (i.e. Civil) for Thomas if he died after the start of full civil records in 1864.
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Shane
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Shane
Thanks again for all this new information, my cousin and I are looking through everything you found for me. The church records might not be the way to go. We think we might find something out if we can find where he studied to become a doctor. We always thought Thomas (the doctor) was Irish, but may be he was Scottish or English??? If I find anything from the University or the Royal College of Surgeons I will post on here.
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found Richard Parkinson's birth in Limerick in 1837 and paid to look at certificate and the parents names tie up. So does this mean there is an original record of birth?
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That would be a church baptism record transcript rather than a cert. Which parish was this record in ?
I presume this record was on www.rootsireland.ie ..
Shane
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KILCOLMAN & COOLCAPPAGH
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that parish is a bit to the south east of Glin, and luckily for you the records go back a little earlier to 1827.
Shane
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there's a map of the West Co. Limerick RC parishes at this link (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/limerickwrc.htm)
Shane
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would it be possible for someone who is born in Glin to be baptised in another place? When you say a little SE how far would that be?
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would it be possible for someone who is born in Glin to be baptised in another place? When you say a little SE how far would that be?
the townland of Kilcolman after which the Civil and RC parish is named is about 16.5 km south east of the town of Glin. There is another parish (Shanagolden) in between the two parishes.
I would expect that a baptism would usually take place near to the place of birth or where the family lived at the time. I have read notes about a mother sometimes returning to her family home for the birth of her first child... could that apply here ?
S.
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just to put these locations in context here's the three places we mentioned selected on google maps :
Glin to Kilcolman to Broadford (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Glin,+Ireland&daddr=Kilcolman,+limerick+to:Broadford,+Ireland&geocode=FWcpIgMdRU9y_ykJF8PD7iZbSDEAzTGXqccACg%3BFYSaIQMdf1l1_ynxm33xojpbSDEhILsZqMcAJg%3BFQu5HgMdGBF3_yn1fJVIw8xESDGw0jGXqccACg&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=52.55196,-9.185435&sspn=0.092478,0.278435&ie=UTF8&ll=52.46103,-9.141998&spn=0.370676,1.113739&z=10)
Glin - place of birth you have for Richard
Kilcolman - centre of the parish were the baptism took place
Broadford - the 1848 directory entry for father Thomas
Shane
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It is totally possible Richard's mother went back home for the birth. I saw the map you sent, I think these locations could be ok. I have sent an email to the Administrator at the Diocese of Limerick to enquire after the original baptism record. Unfortunately on the one I downloaded (from the site you mentioned) it does not record Richard's fathers occupation.
I feel this is the right person because of year of birth, place of birth and the father's name is spot on the mother's maiden name is correct too. The only wee niggle I have is her christian name which is recorded as Deborah, but I have seen it listed as Agnes and also Bridget, so it might not mean anything.
I want to thank you so much for all of this guidance and help, the time and effort you have put into on my query is truly amazing. Thank you just doesn't seem enough
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RC baptism records dont include occupations - Church of Ireland ones often do, but they dont include mother's maiden name ... so neither is perfect
The transcript probably includes the full details in the register. You could double-check the film in the NLI, but it's unlikely that it would show any more details,
Shane
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Morning Shane
Thanks for this latest post. Anything I get from now information wise will be a bonus.
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where there sponsors (i.e. godparents) listed on the baptism record ?
These can be family members
Shane
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Yes, one called Annie Fitzgibbon??
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I'm a little bit concerned about the mother's first name on the baptism - Deborah vs Agnes vs Bridget..
Fitzmaurice would be a quite common surname in the south west, but Parkinson would be rare... so I suppose the chances of it being a different Richard born to a different Thomas Parkinson would be very low. The fact that you know he was an M.D. at the time and there is one of the same name located in the same area strengthens the case.
Do you know of any siblings of Richard ?
It might be worth checking for further records for this couple to see if they had any other children in the area.
Shane
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We don't know about any other siblings. Richard married in 1863 in Belfast, but this is a bit strange. His first son was born in Scotland in 1865 then the next three including my great granny where born in Ireland, then they came back to Scotland and had more children here. I don't know why they moved back and forward from Ireland to Scotland back to Ireland then back here??
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all the moving around might be related to his occupation... was he a doctor like his father ?
S.
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No Richard was a tailor?
I feel that Thomas (the doctor's)father must have been a professional. I would imagine that back then you would have to have money to study at University. His father won't have been a farm worker etc.
It would help if we could find where Thomas the Doctor was born. There is a Thomas Parkinson married in 1804 in Limerick and a Thomas Parkinson born 1810 in Limerick.
Could the 1810 be Thomas the Doctor and the 1804 be his father and mother's marriage? Would the 1804 marriage certificate show the father's occupation?
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it might be difficult to locate a definite birthplace for Thomas, but maybe records for College of Surgeons would give a clue to this ..
I dont thinks parish records (either RC or Church of Ireland) from 1804 would give much detail, possibly just name of bride & groom and date of wedding - maybe witness names. (no marriage certs for records this early - just parish records)
Shane
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Waiting to hear from RCS. The 1804 would give the bride and grooms name then the 1810 would show if the second Thomas was the son of the 1804 bride and groom but that wouldn't prove if he was Thomas the Doctor.
I have been trying to find the marriage of Thomas Parkinson and (Deb, Agnes or Brid) Fitzmaurice. They could have married in Northern Ireland, Scotland or England. If I could trace Thomas the Doctor's place of birth that might give us his parent's marriage place.
All of this hinges on the RCS records!!
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thought you mentioned earlier that Thomas and Agnes married in Belfast ?
Shane
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No sorry, Richard and his wife married in Belfast on Christmas Day 1863
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I haven't seen the marriage certificate but on some of their children's birth certificates that's what's written. Although another strange thing is on their 1st child's birth certificate 1865 it's written that Richard (the Tailor) and his wife Maria Sharkey were married in April 1864 in Helensburgh, which is Scotland???/ I can't find a record of that.
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I have just found out that me g.g.g. grandfather was a doctor his name was Thomas Parkinson and he was married in Belfast to Agnes Fitzmaurice.
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Assuming Thomas and Agnes married sometime in the 1830s then there will be no marriage cert. Finding a marriage in Belfast, or wherever, would require having some clues to which parish the marriage took place in.
Shane
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I have no clue at all to where Thomas and Agnes married I would agree around 1830. I really do believe that if I can find out where Thomas the Doctor studied it might tell where he was born and give me a time line. He could have met Agnes will he was studying or just after he qualified and that's where he married. I have checked Scotlandspeople and no marriage recorded in their records also checked Ancestry and no marriage recorded in England. It's a total mystery right now. I am putting all my hope in the replies from Glasgow University and the RCS in London.
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Is Belfast in Co Derry? on Richard's poor relief application it mentioned Co. Derry for a marriage but was that his in Belfast?
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Most of Belfast is in Co. Antrim, but parts are in Co. Down
Shane
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Where would County Derry be because if Belfast wasn't in County Derry in 1863 then maybe Richard mean't his parents were married there because it said on the Poor Relief Record married 70 years Co Derry. He couldn't have been married 70 years by then as he was only in his 70's What was recorded on the PR record was "this man says he is 91" ??? His mind was fuddled with the drink at this point. His daughter was with him at the time of admission and I would imagine she provided most of the details.
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Belfast is near the east coast, The city and county of Derry are to the west of Northern Ireland and adjacent to Donegal.
The two cities are about 70 km apart - see Derry to Belfast (http://www.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Derry,+United+Kingdom&daddr=belfast&hl=en&geocode=FU4mRwMdRE6Q_yljk9A05N1fSDEv81XHKvohvQ%3BFZUWQQMdg4Ol_yk7itDX_f9gSDExxcfvLBZXLg&mra=ls&sll=54.777643,-6.593941&sspn=0.749281,1.867676&ie=UTF8&ll=54.795935,-6.616516&spn=0.748928,1.867676&z=9) (google map)
Shane
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parts of County Derry would be nearer - e.g. Toomebridge , which is near the Antrim/Derry border is about 30km from Belfast
Shane
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Just rechecked my handwritten notes that were taken from the original Poor Relief Record. It says " County Kerry 70 years ago. " This notation was just handwritten on the page below his personal details. It wasn't attatch to any question on the page.
So he was born in Co Limerick but there is a mention of County Kerry, maybe his parents married there or came from there?
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Glin a very close to the border with Co. Kerry...
Parish records for Co. Kerry are available (free) on www.irishgenealogy.ie
There's a few mentions of the surname Parkinson in Co. Kerry, some as witnesses etc - however most seem to be Church of Ireland (90 vs 15 RC)
Shane
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thanks for the link had a look even found some Debora Fitzmaurice. I think that Co Kerry and Glin have a connection. It's just finding it.
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Just got an email from RCS in London, they said this
"If the person you are researching was a member of this college we should find his name in our records, but not much more than that as we only hold more detailed information on those who were fellows of the college. It is particularly difficult when researching early surgeons as we are rather limited in the sources available to us (the Medical Directory does not begin publishing until 1845 and the Medical Register 1859)."
They can check for his name I suppose for a charge of £12 do you think it would be worthwhile doing that?
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may not be worth it then... on the other hand if it was the only possible lead on my gtgtgt-grandfather I think I would take a chance anyway
Shane
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i think so too. I have to fill out a form they sent me and pay the £12 and then they will have a look. If he has those letters after his name he has to be somewhere. I haven't heard back from Glasgow University School of Medicine yet, they should have him on there records, the University has been there since 1451
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Hi Shane
Just an update of Thomas Parkinson, no-one has a record of him. There was no Thomas Parkinson studying at Glasgow University School of Medicine. Everywhere else has drawn a blank. The Archivist at Glasgow Uni gave me some places to try. Sent emails off. Spoke to the Archivist at Royal College of Surgeons at Glasgow. She has advised that the best place to find him as he was an Army Surgeon, would be the National Archives at Kew in London. My daughter lives there, I will ask her if she will check it out for me, will keep you informed. Thanks for your help. Isobel
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i have been searching for this man for more than two years,he is my g,g,g.greatgrandfather,and richard was my g,g,grandfather
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Yes, George I know, we were in touch with each other over a year ago. He's my g.g.g grandfather and his son Richard is my g.g. grandfather. I'm still no further forward with finding him. Although I did find Richard's poor relief record and that's where it states he was born in Glin. My cousin and I have searched every record and can't find him in Glin. Although we did find Mary Ann Parkinson (my g. grandmother) and Elizabeth (her sister's) births in Belfast.
My daughter changed her job and hasn't been able to visit Kew as yet.
Isobel
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Could the letters after thomas's be MRCSI instead os MRCSL, which would mean he trained in Dublin.
Also I found a reference to a Thomas Parkinson in Co Limerick signed the 1948 William Smith O'Brien.
William Smith O'Brien (Irish: Liam Mac Gabhann Ó Briain; 17 October 1803 – 18 June 1864) was an Irish Nationalist and Member of Parliament (MP) and leader of the Young Ireland movement. He was convicted of sedition for his part in the Young Irelander Rebellion of 1848, but his sentence of death was commuted to deportation to Van Diemen's Land.
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That's totally possible. I sent emails to the London College of Surgeons, also Glasgow University medical dept and everywhere else I could think of. Everyone replied and having checked their records could find no trace of a Dr Thomas Parkinson.
The Co Limerick connection could be him. My daughter has moved from London so at the minute I don't have anyone to check out the records at Kew.
I'll keep digging and hopefully might find something. Thanks for the information.
Isobel
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I've just double checked that 1848 directory entry - definitely an 'L'
Shane
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Hi Shane
That means it's London then? The Royal College of Surgeons in London say that not all graduates are listed and unfortunately Thomas could be one of them. I think the only chance of finding him might be at Kew.
He is a real mystery and I've tried everything I can think of to find him. Don't know where to look next. Can you send me the link for the directory?
Isobel
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Thom's 1848 directory is sitting on my bookshelf - there are no copies online that I know of.
You can view the 1850 edition on Google books - the Medical section is at this link (http://books.google.ie/books?id=6V4NAAAAYAAJ&q=thoms%20dublin%20directory%201850&pg=PA264#v=onepage&q=medicine%20and%20surgery&f=false)
Shane
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Thanks Shane, can't see Thomas Parkinson mentioned though in 1850 book. There's no way to be sure that the 1848 entry is him. I need to do more research. Fingers crossed
Isobel
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I found evidence of a Thomas PARKINSON born 1837 Rathcail Limerick, I wonder if this could be Thomas's son. There is a village Rathkeale less than 20 miles from Glin
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That sounds promising. This could indeed be Thomas' son and Richard's brother. Is there any more information on him.... parents etc? It would be wonderful to fill in the blanks on these Parkinson men. According to the 1915 Barnhill Poorhouse record which I saw the original copy of.. it clearly states Richard Parkinson my G.G. Grandfather was born in Glin and this information would be given by him or his daughter at the time of his admission to the Poorhouse. We just have to continue to dig and hopefully we'll be lucky.
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No more information on Thomas only date and place of birth when signed up and when discharged.
He JOined 21 febuary 1854 aged 17 years 6 months 66th Regt no.3338
He was discharged 4 July 1876 as a Private
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Where did he join up? Was it in Ireland or the UK? Again everything we probably need to know is at Kew. We need someone who can go and check the records there.
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he joined in england westminster middlesex
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Thanks, I'll have a look and see what I can find