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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: RobinC1978 on Wednesday 16 February 11 09:17 GMT (UK)
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Please could someone look up Ellen Crouch who was living at 25 Norfolk Street, Forest Gate circa 1918 and also Herbert Crouch at 26 King Georges Avenue, Custom House circa 1934.
I am trying to locate Herbert who is proving to be quite elusive despite appearing at the following times:
1891 census with his family
1907 at his first marriage to Ellen Taylor
1916-18 on his Army Pension Record
1934 at his second marriage to Lilian Gallagher nee Crump (states he is a widower but no sign of Ellen's death)
1938 when he dies at the age of 55
I would be most grateful for any help.
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat
Hopefully someone may offer to do the lookup for you, but if not it would be worth contacting Newham Archives to see if they hold the electoral registers for the years you are interested in and whether they will do a lookup for you?
http://www.newham.gov.uk/EntertainmentandLeisure/Libraries/LibraryReferenceServices/ArchivesAndLocalHistory/Servicesatthearchivesandlocalstudieslibrary.htm
Regards
Valda
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Hi there
Don't forget that women didn't get the vote till the late 1920's so may not appear on electoral rolls till then.
Carol
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Thank you for the welcome.
I forgot that women didn't get the vote until 1928 (I think) but I'm hoping Herbert shows up on the electoral rolls regularly as there's no trace of him on the 1901 or 1911 censuses for some reason or another!
I'm guessing that Ellen either died or left Herbert sometime between 1918 & 1934 but can't pinpoint either happening as yet.
I'll contact Newham to see if they can shed any light on the subject.
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I've just started reading his Army pension record and it states that he was poorly(Rheumatic Fever) and spent some time in hospital. It says at the age of 31 he was there for 9 months.Does that coincide with 1911? Have you tried looking for him in an institution with either just his initial H Crouch or even just as HC.
Were there any children born around 1911- so that might give you an address or rough area?
Carol
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He would have been 31 in 1914 so that just misses the 1911 census, I did try to look for a H. Crouch or H. C. on the census but have had no luck so far. It's frustrating as he doesn't appear to have left the West Ham area during his life from the events I've seen so far.
Although he did state he was treated at West Ham Infirmary & a London hospital prior to enlistment to the army.
It also states the disability originated in 1912 in London.
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Hi
'The Representation of the People Act 1918 widened suffrage by abolishing practically all property qualifications for men and by enfranchising women over 30 who met minimum property qualifications.
Women over 30 years old receive the vote but they have to be either a member or married to a member of the Local Government Register'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People_Act_1918
Regards
Valda
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Were there any children born around 1911- so that might give you an address or rough area?
Carol
I haven't been able to narrow down any children between 1907 & 1911 for Herbert & Ellen and there are no children born from the December quarter of 1911 onwards whose mother had the maiden name of Taylor.
How can I find out if any of the Crouch births between 1907 & 1911 were offspring of Herbert & Ellen?
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These are possible births though:
Births Sep 1907
CROUCH Albert Douglas H W. Ham 4a 327
CROUCH Phyllis Margaret W. Ham 4a 212
Births Dec 1907
CROUCH Alice May W. Ham 4a 174
CROUCH Frederick Robert J W. Ham 4a 348
Births Sep 1908
CROUCH Blanche Phoebe W. Ham 4a 489
Births Jun 1909
Crouch Bertha Joyce W. Ham 4a 296
Crouch William Archibald H W. Ham 4a 350
Births Sep 1909
CROUCH Reginald Ernest W. Ham 4a 224
Births Jun 1910
CROUCH Leonard John W. Ham 4a 119
CROUCH Robert Percy W. Ham 4a 15
Births Dec 1910
CROUCH Dorothy W W. Ham 4a 408
CROUCH Ethel B W. Ham 4a 141
Births Jun 1911
Crouch Osmond R W.Ham 4a 266
I would ask the GRO to do a check for me but it'll cost a fortune and pay day is over a week away yet.
The only birth in that list that I can would be suitable is that of Robert Percy but he dies in the same time period so I can't trace him to see who his parents were.
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Hi
If these children do not die before the 1911 census you will be able to place quite a few of them into possible family groups using the free search on the 1911 census.
http://www.1911census.co.uk/
1911 census - Rootschatters' tips for success
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
Regards
Valda
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Do you have their 1907 marriage cert?
If so can you let us know all the info on there including addresses and witnesses.
Presumably you are descended from one of their children? If so which one?
Carol
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Hi Valda,
I thought of that and have eliminated all but the following births as I have found the others with their families on the 1911 census:
Alice May Crouch (died in 1908 in West Ham)
Robert Percy Crouch (died in 1910 in West Ham)
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Do you have their 1907 marriage cert?
If so can you let us know all the info on there including addresses and witnesses.
Presumably you are descended from one of their children? If so which one?
Carol
Herbert is the brother of my great grandfather (Robert Peter Crouch (1871 - 1928) and I have managed to locate the whereabouts of Robert & all of his siblings with the exception of Herbert which I really want to solve.
I have found the other siblings in 1911 and Herbert isn't with them.
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Info from marriage certificate:
Marriage place: St Lukes Church, Victoria Docks, West Ham, Essex
Marriage date: 22nd January 1907
Herbert's info:
Name: Herbert Douglas Crouch
Age: 24
Status: Bachelor
Occupation: Labourer
Address: 49 Crediton Road
Father's name: Robert Henry Crouch
Father's occupation: Lighterman
Ellen's info:
Name: Ellen Taylor
Age: 24
Status: Spinster
Occupation: None listed
Address: 49 Crediton Road
Father's name: Henry Taylor
Father's occupation: Slaughterman
Witnesses: F. Fricker & R.E.E. Day
F. Fricker appears to be a verger as I have found him in 1911 & R.E.E. Day is Herbert's sister Rose.
I've looked for an Ellen Taylor in 1901 with a father named Henry but there is no sign of them.
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Hi
Herbert Douglas died 22nd July 1938. His will was probated 9th August London. The executor was Eleanor Olive Clapperton widow.
Marriages Mar 1908
Clapperton Arnold James W.Ham 4a 179
Crouch Eleanor Olive W. Ham 4a 179
If he had any children you might expect some mention of them in his will.
Regards
Valda
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I found the probate entry on Ancestry's collection but I'm not sure how to order the will.
Eleanor Olive Clapperton was another of Herbert's sisters and became a widow in 1928 when Arnold James died.
Herbert's siblings were:
Robert Peter (1871-1928) married Annie Ellen Ringwood nee Giles (1885-1922) in 1914 and had 3 children including my grandfather.
Rose Elizabeth Ellen (1868-1931) married William Day in 1887 at Woolwich, they didn't have children but took my grandfather in when his father died in 1928.
Jane Mary Ann (1875-1962) married Alfred Ernest Challis in 1897 at West Ham.
Alfred Matthew (1878-1887) born and died in West Ham.
Eleanor Olive (1886-1952) married Arnold James Clapperton in 1908 at West Ham.
Henry Robert David (1864-1900) married Harriet Jane Piggott in 1884 at Poplar.
Incidentally, Eleanor Olive's birth is registered as Helena Olive according to Freebmd's index.
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Order the will by completing this application form ;D
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/pa1s_0405.pdf
Carol
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Hi
There is also a guide to wills on the Essex board which gives all the links
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,511539.0.html
Regards
Valda
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I'll have to order the will although I am aware of two possible births from Herbert's second marriage in 1934.
Crump was the maiden name of Lilian Edith Gallagher who Herbert married in 1934, Herbert stated that he was a widower at the time but there's no sign of a death for Ellen.
Amended
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Apologies for posting details of people who may still be living.
I believe that Shirley E Crouch who was born in the 3rd qtr of 1934, died in Poplar in the 1st qtr of 1936 at the age of 1 year according to Freebmd's registration index.
The other person was married in the late 1950s as far as I am aware.
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Has anyone managed to look up Herbert on the electoral rolls?
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Robin, I have booked an appointment at the Archives for this afternoon.
They do not open on a Sunday so it wouldn't be possible to look them up then.
I understand that you have already sent them an email a couple of weeks ago which they haven't had chance to answer yet. They have been closed on and off during Jan and Feb.
I will let you know the results of my search later this evening.
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Thank you in advance for anything you may find.
Yes, I emailed a Richard Durack regarding the electoral rolls but I wasn't aware of them closing during Jan & Feb.
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Robin.
Here is the information I have for you.
1918 25 Norfolk Street.
Occupants George Lindeman and Mary Ann Lindeman
Herbert Crouch was an absent voter so likely in Miltary or Navy. This was found in answer to your email to the Archives.
1934-35 26 King George Avenue.
Occupants Arnold George Clapperton,Eleanor Olive Clapperton,Stanley Alfred Clapperton,Albert John Lewis.
19367 Occupants as above plus a Doris Littlefield.
1938 Occupants as above without Doris Littlefiled.
The person at the Archive had also checked 1936 for you.
I hope this helps.
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Hello Kesannah,
Thank you very much for looking up the electoral rolls.
25 Norfolk Street was the address given on Herbert's army pension record, I'm not sure why Ellen isn't there when it is the address she is listed at due to being Herbert's next of kin. I am not aware of the Lindeman's so unsure if they are related to Ellen.
26 King George Avenue was Herbert's residence at the time of his death and it shows that Eleanor (his sister) was living there with her family, I would have thought that Lilian (Herbert's second wife) would have been there if he was living there in 1936 as well.
I think the search has to continue for Herbert and his whereabouts during the missing years.
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Robin.
You mention that Eleanor Olive Clapperton became a widow in 1928 after Arnold JAMES Clapperton died.
Did she then marry an Arnold GEORGE Clapperton. if not you must have the wrong date of death for Arnold as he was still living King Geroge Avenue with Eleanor Olive in 1938
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Robin ignore my previous message. I had forgotten that Arnold GEROGE is most likely her son ::)
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I think Arnold George should be Arnold Robert as Eleanor Clapperton had 4 sons from her marriage with Arnold James:
Arnold Robert born 1908 in West Ham,
James W born & died in 1910,
Stanley A born 1912 in West Ham,
Herbert Henry born 1915 in West Ham
Arnold Robert married Doris Littlefield in 1939 (this has been confirmed by a grandson of Eleanor as he emailed me a picture of the wedding party).
Eleanor is on the above mentioned picture and had a common law husband by that time who was called Fred Taylor.
What does the term absent voter mean? Herbert was in the army in 1918.
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What does the term absent voter mean? Herbert was in the army in 1918.
It means that he was registered as an eligible voter at that address but was away in service at the time of the electoral roll being taken.
Carol
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That makes sense with what I know about Herbert from that time period.
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Just for some clarification, was Herbert living with the Clapperton family between 1936 & 1938?
If so, where was Ellen in 1918 and Lilian from 1936 onwards?
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1934-35 26 King George Avenue.
Occupants Arnold George Clapperton,Eleanor Olive Clapperton,Stanley Alfred Clapperton,Albert John Lewis.
19367 Occupants as above plus a Doris Littlefield.
1938 Occupants as above without Doris Littlefiled.
Robin as you see from Kesannah's message above,the people who were living there were those listed Arnold,Eleanor,Stabley and Albert....and in 1936/7 Doris Littlefield was there,but the next year she had gone.
So the answer is no Herbert was not there ;D
Electoral rolls can only be searched by address,not alphabetically by name,so unless you have found an address for the other two ladies you won't able to check out where they were or for how long.
Carol
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Ahhh this might be interesting.
Arnold R Clapperton married Doris A Littlefield in West ham in Sep 1/4 of 1939
Ref 4 a page 337
I see that you already knew this ;)
Carol
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In that case, it is definitely back to the drawing board as I have no other addresses for Herbert, Ellen or Lilian between all the dates that I have found records for them such as census entries, marriages and deaths.
Although Lilian's first husband died in 1930 so it might be worth me buying his death certificate to see where they lived unless I can find him in the probate calendar first (which I can't).
Deaths Dec 1930
Gallagher John G 46 W. Ham 4a 220
I just hope I will be able to find any of them on the 1921 census when it is released.
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I've just had a thought which is a long shot as Rose Elizabeth Ellen Day (Herbert's older sister) has 40 Dartmouth Road as the address on her death certificate (William, her husband, was the informant).
I know that Rose was very family orientated as she was the informant for the deaths of her father, her older brother Henry and her younger brother Robert (my great grandfather).
Rose died in 1931 but William lived on for another 4 years if I am correct so it may be possible that Herbert was living with them.
As I said, it's a long shot but you never know!
Also, looking at Herbert & Lilian's marriage certificate from 1934, Herbert was living at 26 King George Avenue and Lilian was living at 20 Argyle Road. Both roads are in the Custom House area.
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Robin, IF I find time I will try the Archives for Electoral roll for 40 Dartmouth Road at the weekend,if not one day next week.
Kesannah
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Thank you Kesannah, your help is much appreciated!
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Robin You are welcome.
Strange thing is, the actual address rings a bell. I am pretty sure that one of my family lived there but cannot remember which one.
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Robin I have booked for tomorrow to have a look at the electoral rolls. I hope to have some news for you later in the afternoon/evening/
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Robin, I searched the electoral rolls from 1929 No sign of Herbert Crouch.
40 Dartmouth Road.
1929 Robert Crouch.Rose E Day and William Day.
1930 Rose and William Day
1931 Rose and William Day
1932 a Pullinger family lived there
Kesannah
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Thank you Kesannah,
What you found is very interesting and useful.
The Robert Crouch who was living there in 1929 was my grandfather as his father and grandfather (both also called Robert) died in 1928 & 1904 respectively. My grandfather went to live with Rose & William as he became an orphan (his mother died in 1922).
So that makes sense but why would a 10 year old be on the electoral roll?
I also wonder if my grandad was living there in during the 1930s as well despite not being included on the roll.
The search for Herbert goes on but he can't hide forever, I guess!
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So that makes sense but why would a 10 year old be on the electoral roll?
You would have to have been 21 to appear on an electoral roll,so I would sugegst that the Robert Crouch that Kesannah found yesterday is not your grandad,but someone of that name you have not accounted for yet.
Maybe a great uncle perhaps?
Carol
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I have researched the Crouch side of my family and as I said above, my grandfather was called Robert (as were his father and grandfather), there is no sign of any other Robert Crouch's in the family as the line goes like this:
Robert Crouch married Sarah Shersby in 1813, they had 2 children, Henry William & Herbert (Herbert died in childhood).
Henry William married Elizabeth Bromley in 1840, they had 1 son (Robert Henry).
Robert Henry married Jane Mary Ann Damiral in 1863, they had 7 children, Henry Robert David (died n 1900, had 2 children, Alfred Robert & Lily Harriet), Rose Elizabeth Ellen, Robert Peter, Jane Mary Ann, Alfred Matthew (Alfred died in childhood), Herbert Douglas & Eleanor Olive.
There doesn't appear to be any trace of Alfred Robert Crouch from 1901 onwards but as I know that my grandfather lived with Rose & William, I think it is more likely that the Robert with them in 1929 was my grandfather mistakenly added and not Alfred having dropped his first name.
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I thought I'd found Alfred Robert's death but have miscalculated his age as there is a registration in Eastbourne in 1923 but the age is 45 which is 10 years older than Alfred would have been.
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Is this him,never having left West Ham ;D
Deaths Dec 1948
Alfred R CROUCH age 60 Ref W.Ham 5a 572
Carol
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That's a great shout, Carol!
I can't find him in 1911 so am guessing that he was either in the armed forces or was hiding!
P.S. I've just found this entry on Ancestry which could be the same person:
Name: Arthur R Crouch
Death: West Ham, Essex, England
Death: Oct-Nov-Dec 1948
Volume: 5a
Page: 572
The original says "Alfred R.....60" and there is an Arthur R on the next line who was 68, it appears that Ancestry got mixed up.
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It won't be that Ancestry got mixed up- the death has been registered in both names,Arthur and Alfred.Probably because whoever registered it either didn't know him too well and got confused,or was so upset at his death they gave the wrong name to the registrar.But later realised their mistake.
Carol
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The original list states:
Crouch, Alfred R 60 W.Ham 5a 572
Crouch, Arthur R 68 Essex S.W. 5a 99
I think whoever put the entry on Ancestry mixed the two up as there is no death registration for a 60 year old Arthur R Crouch in West Ham in 1948.
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I didn't look at the original ,I see what you mean now-I have submitted an amendment to Ancestry.
Carol
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The Alfred Robert that we have been discussing was a cousin of my grandfather despite being born 31 years earlier.
His father was Henry Robert David who died in 1900, Henry's wife remarried later in 1900 to John Walter Cox and they are found on the 1911 census with Alfred's sister Lily Harriet & half sister 'Carrie' Cox.
I'm not sure what Carrie's real name is as there's a few candidates born around 1901.
This is the family in 1901 without 'Carrie':
John Cox 33
Harriet Cox 35
Alfred Crouch 13
Lily Crouch 9
Class: RG13; Piece: 1584; Folio: 86; Page: 55
Census reference copyright of TNA
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I've just found this marriage registration which could be Carrie's:
Marriages Sep 1926
Cox Carrie E E Groves W.Ham 4a 537
Might have to get the certificate to see if that's her.
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The search continues!
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I've just thought, could the Robert Crouch who is on the 1928 electoral roll actually be a mistranscription of Herbert Crouch?