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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: rachelralph on Tuesday 15 February 11 18:20 GMT (UK)
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one of my dads great x2 uncles was listed in 51 cenus as idiot in the occupation coloumn. then in the 61 census he is listed as nil under occupation and idiot in the last coloumn. i then lose track of him, i would assume he died at a youngish age. am i right in thinking idiot meant a mental disorder that you were born with?
what i would like to know is if i did order his death cert (if i can find it!) would it tell me exactely what kind of 'idiocy' he was suffering from?
the only reason i ask about whether it was a birth problem too, is because the mother seems to have died quite young, and a few of my mans siblings seem to be living at home unmarried into their late 40's with no spouse. i am wondering whether this was a hereditary problem?
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It was the dreadful term used in those days for a person who was born mentally retarded
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Death certificate will list cause of death- which might be something like pneumonia, tb, etc. I've seen 'idiot' in census refer to children who were most likely what's now termed autistic and those with cerebral palsy.
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It was only in the 1871 Census that people were asked whether any member of the household was an 'imbecile or idiot' or 'feeble-minded', a question that was retained until the 1911 Census.
The exact definitions of terms such as 'lunatic', 'imbecile', 'idiot' and 'feeble-minded' are extremely problematic. According to the 1881 Census Report;
No accurate line of demarcation can be drawn between the several conditions indicated by these terms. Speaking generally, however, the term idiot is applied in popular usage simply to those who suffer from congenital mental deficiency, and the term imbecile to persons who have fallen in later life into a state of chronic dementia. But it is certain that neither this nor any other definite distinction between the terms was rigorously observed in the schedules, and consequently no attempt has been made by us to separate imbeciles from idiots. The term lunatic also is used with some vagueness, and probably some persons suffering from congenital idiocy, and many more suffering from dementia, were returned under this name.
Considering that householders, who could be illiterate, were being asked to give information about medical disabilities without any definition of the terms being used the answers should be treated with caution. Also they would be unwilling to admit that anyone in the family had medical disabilities.
If you want to find out more look at
On the Diagnosis and Prognosis of Idiocy and Imbecility
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~mksimpso/IreDiag.htm
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,405872.msg2741392.html#msg2741392
Stan
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Does anyone know whether the term "idiot" is interchangeable with the term "lunatic". A distant rellie of mine was listed on early censuses living with wife and children and occupation was a Painter, then in three subsequent censuses he was in an asylum and was listed as a lunatic. Correspondence with a direct ancestor who had done more detailed research confirmed he was epileptic. I don't know whether he was afflicted as a child and it got worse in his 40s or it was as a result of an accident later.
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its just so sad. my nephew has epilepsy but he is quite literally a child genius. he is advanced in his mental age by a good 10 years. we wouldnt dream of refering to him in anyway a lunatic.
i have a funny feeling my man had something like cerabel palsy (excuse spelling) as like i said a lot of his family members were still being cared for at home while in their 30's and 40's. the mother also has disappeared from the 71 census even though her husband says he was still married not widowed, leading me to believe that she may be in 'care' if it can be called that!
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My understanding of 'idiot' would be a mental impairment. That could be from birth or from say an accident during childhood or adulthood. I don't think a physical medical impairment, such as a palsy, would be classed in the same context, even then. I would say that there is a distinct difference in what these display?
Others will be more expert though. Kit
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I am sure too that people would attempt to abuse family members who they had quarrelled with in this way.
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my great grandfathers aunt was listed on every Census as idiot
or imbecile depending who was filling in the Census form. All
through her long life she was looked after by Relatives firstly her
Mum and Dad' then through siblings until the end when her last widowed sister died. I searched for her and found her in Leominster Workhouse and she was dead within the year. I felt so sorry as if I had known her it was so sad and quite a shock
really I suppose there were no more Relatives living locally to
care for her
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The fact that several adults were still being cared for at home may or may not signify that there was some mental impairment.
I well recall a family near where I lived many years ago,and the older children were bright and working at responsible jobs but the younger end were all in deceasing age to a geater degree mentally retarded.( I`m sorry about that unpleasant term)
The parents were quite old , father well into his 70`s when youngest was sadly born with Down`s syndrome. Mother quite old to still be having children. Downs is I think slightly more common in older mothers.Nowadays the children would have attended an appropriate school or would be integrated into mainstream schooling. But then there was very little other than a sort of containment.As the parents died the older siblings cared for the younger ones.It meant they had no life of their own and were afraid to marry.Probably because of the inherited condition of the next youngest which through my work I now recognise as Phenylketonuria- an inability to process proteins leading to mental impairment.
There are many causes why a family is so afflicted, a recessive gene etc. I feel so grateful that my own children were all O.K and my admiration for famlies who have children with special needs knows no bounds. When you think that a baby- perfectly alright -could be brain damaged at birth through lack of oxygen for just a little while, it is amazingly sad that the baby`s heart could not be monitored in the old days as routine.Women with deformed pelvises through malnutrition would always have long difficult births which of course have an adverse effect on the baby.
it is interesting too that unmarried mothers were often put in Lunatic Asylums.Viktoria.
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One of my ancestors told his doctors about an aunt who suffered from 'bad epilepsy for 52 years'.
His Aunt Sarah was born in 1842/3 and did indeed die aged 52, having never married or left her parents' home - I've checked on FreeBMD and census. Her medical condition is mentioned only once, in the 1881 census, where her occupation (domestic servant) is crossed out and the last column states 'Imbecile, an epileptic from birth'.
Presumably some enumerator made the alteration. I don't think the family saw Sarah that way. Times have changed, thank goodness.
Carol
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it is interesting too that unmarried mothers were often put in Lunatic Asylums.Viktoria.
Under the Mental Deficiency Act 1913 four "classes" of Mental Deficiency were defined:
Idiot ~ unable to protect themselves from common dangers.
Imbecile ~ could protect themselves from common dangers, but unable to take care of themselves.
Feeble-Minded ~ required care to protect themselves.
Moral Defectives ~ criminal or vicious personalities. Unmarried Mothers also became absorbed into this category.
See http://www.institutions.org.uk/poor_law_unions/imbeciles.htm
When ‘feeble-minded’ was substituted for ‘idiot’ in the 1901 census the number of persons recorded with mental disability rose markedly, because, apparently the former term was considered much less derogatory than the latter. Some terms do have a formal definition in the UK although they are no longer used.
Stan
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I have the death cert for someone who was described as being of "unsound mind" on the 1851 census and it states "idiotic" under occupation, cause of death was congenital decay and chronic bronchitis.
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Sadly the Victorians were not very subtle in their naming of illnesses etc., I have a boy/man listed as Imbecile.
The terms idoit/lunactic and imbecile (have even seen Moron) do seem to be interchangeable and cover a mutlitude of "illnesses" they were not bother what illness just recording that a person in that house was not considered "normal"
And also due to their not being subtle about things I have a young child living with his grandparents & unmarried mother in 1911 and he is listed as "bastard" written in capital letters, granddad obviously did not approve ;)
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Some terms do have a formal definition in the UK although they are no longer used :
Term Idiot IQ 0 to 25 Modern term Severe learning disability
Imbecile 25 to 50 Moderate learning disability
Feeble minded (moron) 50 to 70 Mild learning disability
Those with an IQ of less than 50 usually need care throughout life and are unlikely to educable in the formal sense.
Stan
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The terms only become derogatory because they are used to insult people. At one time it was acceptable to talk about morons and spastics and mongols. Now it isn't.
I believe yonks ago I read a definition that gave various grades of mental impairment based on IQ levels, idiot was the lowest.
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thanks all for the help. seeing as i havent posted any names and places as such i feel better for what im about to say, but if it is a genetic thing that labeled my ancestor an idiot, it may expalin a few things!
my mum always says your grandads the way he is coz he's not the sharpest tool in the shed! i love my grandad but he can be a very very harsh and rude man, and my mum always said he is like that because he never understands that its wrong to be that rude about people!
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I believe yonks ago I read a definition that gave various grades of mental impairment based on IQ levels, idiot was the lowest.
Well I gave them in my post before yours :)
Stan
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I have read imbercile (idiot) a couple of times on the census of my ancestors...rather upsetting especially when it's next to someone with your exact name!! :o I remember as a child a few children around that had problems and we called them all sorts of sorts names :o terrible I know
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my mum always says your grandads the way he is coz he's not the sharpest tool in the shed! i love my grandad but he can be a very very harsh and rude man, and my mum always said he is like that because he never understands that its wrong to be that rude about people!
We still don't fully realise that there are two components in education and development, nature and nurture. Little can be currently done about nature, but nurture can be used to develop a person to the extent that in the example below a boy who was slow at primary school developed to the extent where he obtained a first class honours degree at Oxford University. His development was nurtured by the fact that his father was a multi millionaire stockbroker who was able to buy his son a privileged education at Eton. If only such avenues were available to all we should have very many less people who are deprived of achieving their full potential.
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From the 1911 Census Report.
"Previous to 1901 a return was asked of persons who were "lunatic," "imbecile," or "idiot," but in 1901, since it had been represented that the term "idiot." was considered to be somewhat opprobrious and therefore liable to lead to the concealment of the truth, it was omitted, and the term imbecile being used to include all the major degrees of congenital mental defect. At the same time the term feeble-minded was introduced for the first time in order to cover the minor degrees of this condition, to which a considerable amount of public attention had been directed." http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bva/
Stan
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Regarding "feeble minded people" I knew a family where the wife who was highly intelligent had married a man who was feeble minded, they had two daughters, one bright and normal, the other extremely slow witted. The father despite his mental slowness was an absolutely brilliant gardener, he could bud a plant and make it grow where no-one else could. If a plant propagated by him didn't take, then it was certainly dead. Everyone has some talent in them somewhere. We do wrong to deprive any person of developing their full potential.
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very true redroger. it has to be said that my grandfather is a man to admire in some ways. his mother left home when he was only 12ish and the father had to work. my grandfather brought up all the children, and there were many of them! he stayed at home, didnt really attend school as such and then at an age when the children could look after themselves he then went to work himself. maybe if he had the opportunity to learn he may not be the way he is today. again i have to say that i love my grandfather very much but he has a very blunt way of saying things and doing things that can get on people nerves more than a little. he is very narrow minded and more than a little racist.
in fact the idea that a great uncle of his was considered an idiot will not sit well with him, and in fact he will deny all relation to him at all.
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There are some similarities to the case of my own father, who was orphaned at the age of 2, brought up on a farm by his aunt and uncle. Gained a scholarship to the local Grammar school at the age of 10, but was taken out of school at 12, and put to farm service. Volunteered for WW1 at the age of 15 "because he was bored". survived (obviously) married late, and had me and my brother when in his forties.Had worked as a railway engineman from leaving the army to retirement. I passed the 11 +, my brother didn't for some reason, I worked on the railway and he in the police, however the latent potential showed in the next generation, his granchildren, all of whom went to university, from comprehensive schools incidentally, the 5 of them gaining at least 8 degrees between, including one double first and subsequent Phd from Oxford, not the guy I mentioned in my previous posting though they were contemporaries. The nature is there, and given the opportunity can flourish as in this case. My great fear is the opportunity will now be increasingly limited to those who can afford to send their children to Eton etc.
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Well said everyone, we all have a place in society,,, a part to play in life, does worry me though when opportunity can be limited to whether you can buy a education these days..............my dad's story is similar came from farming and through the war years improved his status to engineer and we all received a good education just because he wanted us to show our potential ,,, we did ;)
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For what it's worth, I was always under the impression that an idiot and imbecile were born that way from day one and always to remain so
whereas Lunacy appeared later in life in a previously "normal" person therefore turning them Lunatic.
stevecw
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When an idiot or imbecile occurs in a family, the ordinary medical attendant is generally the first consulted. Perhaps he is already aware of the nature of the case, having attended the child from infancy,
On the Diagnosis and Prognosis of Idiocy and Imbecility
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~mksimpso/IreDiag.htm
Stan
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leading on from the term idiot. i have just come across an invalid. she was working as a servant before this and on other census' was fine, would this then be disbaled through an injry or similar?
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She could have been disabled by illness or injury.
Stan
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thanks i did think this. dont know how i would find out what was wrong though :-\
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Oh I don't rate your chances of finding out what was wrong with her but good luck with it.
As Stan rightly says, it could have been caused by an accident or illness, perhaps something like developing Polio (quite common then?) which may have required a leg brace but I'm not sure whether those in that era with their penchant for putting diplomatic labels on everyone would have classed her as a cripple?
It would be a very, very long shot if you ever found out the reason perhaps pinning your hopes on something like a very long illness and being very poor requiring her to be treated in the "hospital" wing of a Workhouse during the time a Census was carried out to show her there !
stevecw
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http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~mksimpso/IreDiag.htm
Interesting read Stan.thanks
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I had a Great Grand Aunt described as an "Idiot" someone informed me that the word came from "idios" - unable to understand. (Deaf and possibly dumb) Imbecile was another thing altogether apparently. I could google all of this to check but this is just off the top of my head.
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Rachel, It just might be worthwhile getting a copy of her death certificate, the disability might have been a contributory cause of her death. Failing that, I think your chances are remote, however, some employers were better than others. My grandmother lived with us and had been in domestic service with a family in Cambridge for many years. Every week that she lived with us I remember a letter coming fromher former employer, the contents were always the same, except at Christmas her pension a £1 note. This was in the 1940s and early 1950s. At Christmas there was a parcel instead, plus a second parcel from her former employer's daughter who had emigrated to Rhodesia as it was then called. Possibly if your person's employers were of this type they may have made some provision, and left a record of it.
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I had a Great Grand Aunt described as an "Idiot" someone informed me that the word came from "idios" - unable to understand. (Deaf and possibly dumb) Imbecile was another thing altogether apparently. I could google all of this to check but this is just off the top of my head.
The etymology of Idiot comes from Anglo-Norman ideot, ideote, idyot, ydeot uneducated, ignorant person
From the OED Idiot A person so profoundly disabled in mental function or intellect as to be incapable of ordinary acts of reasoning or rational conduct; spec. a person permanently so affected, as distinguished from one with a temporary severe mental illness. Now hist. in technical use.
Imbecile Mentally weak; of weak character or will through want of mental power; (hence) fatuous, stupid, idiotic. (The chief current use.)
Term Idiot IQ 0 to 25 Modern term Severe learning disability
Imbecile 25 to 50 Moderate learning disability
Feeble minded (moron) 50 to 70 Mild learning disability
Stan
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Useful to know Stan, with a normal (average) IQ of 100, that leaves a very wide margin of people with IQs 71-99 who would be of below average intelligence to a lesser or greater degree. If the more severe levels of disability quoted are congenital then can the category above be improved by nurture?
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Does anyone know whether the term "idiot" is interchangeable with the term "lunatic". A distant rellie of mine was listed on early censuses living with wife and children and occupation was a Painter, then in three subsequent censuses he was in an asylum and was listed as a lunatic. Correspondence with a direct ancestor who had done more detailed research confirmed he was epileptic. I don't know whether he was afflicted as a child and it got worse in his 40s or it was as a result of an accident later.
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In early days paint had lead in it and it's well known that it affects the brain. I wonder if the paint content brought about the fits?
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Lead poisoning; In adults the symptoms can include convulsions, permanent brain damage and damage to the central nervous system.
See http://www.ciphe.org.uk/Professional/Public-Health/Lead-Poisoning/
Stan
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I'm surprised there were so few ancestors noted in that column of the census. Most births would be at home and without quick specialist intervention any difficult birth where oxygen is denied the brain for any length of time will cause some damage.
I have four consecutive census where one child's name is omitted. There's a telltale gap in the births of all siblings to show that maybe one was stillborn but it wasn't until I found notice of a birth to the mother in an 1853 newspaper that I had proof that a child had survived birth. It wasn't until I found the family headstone which detailed all dates of births and deaths that I knew the baby ("much loved son") had survived for 41 years. The quandary is where is the official registration of his death or did the family not report it.
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Another good read Stan!!
On the lighter side, I think I had a lucky escape,,,,having chewed through my painted cot spindles ;D probally lead in the paint those days ???
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The amount of inbreeding apparent in English villages during the 18th and 19th centuries surprises me that a far higher proportion of the population were not physically or mentally defective.
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We must also remember alot of the mothers gave birth in later years well into their 40's and that brings with it a very high risk of Downs Syndrome,, those children would die young 20 - 30 sometimes they would reach 40's,
This medical condition I have never seen recorded on census, so maybe idiot or imbecile was the term used
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That sounds reasonable, though in widespread use in the 1940s-1960's (and beyond?) the term mongol was already considered derogatory, so perhaps this goes back to the time of the published censuses.
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I was under the impression that interbreeding was stemmed by a law or ban on marrying even 2nd cousins which apparently was lifted in the 20th century.
I remember as a child in Liverpool being told that Birkenhead people were idiots due to interbreeding as they were surrounded by water and never moved around.
Sometimes the tales we are told have a element of truth in them ;D
Who was to police this anyway in small villages and islands in those days ;D
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mmm never seen Mongol on a census ...maybe not a term used in those times or as you say was an insult . so why use idiot :-\
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It was supposedly policed by the local clergy, and the asking for impediments during the marriage service. I know of several cases in rural Cambridgeshire during the 19th century where the clergyman must have been aware the couple were related, and attended a family history meeting in Doncaster where I asked the lecturer whether the laws on permitted relationships were enforced or not? The tree concerned was one in rural Lincolnshire.
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You know now that I think about it there were alot of Downs children/people around when I was younger, never gave it much thought, but now realise it was due to the older mothers and of course in these times we have medical checks to detect the condition :) so not so common :)
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It was supposedly policed by the local clergy, and the asking for impediments during the marriage service. I know of several cases in rural Cambridgeshire during the 19th century where the clergyman must have been aware the couple were related, and attended a family history meeting in Doncaster where I asked the lecturer whether the laws on permitted relationships were enforced or not? The tree concerned was one in rural Lincolnshire.
So did he turn a blind eye? interesting....I know a family that adopted a child who was the result of incest, she was of normal intelligence but had very strange looks and did marry but was unable to have a child....a physical problem possibly due to her genes.
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As IQ is a 20th century notion, I don't really see that it can be "back dated" to cover an arbitrary array of 19th century mental deficiencies. :-\
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Very true Geoff E,
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this particular man in my tree, is not from a family that kept the family close :o
i do however have on my mother in laws family, a family that without a doubt married cousins, uncles, nieces, nephews etc. without a doubt the clergy here knew they were related. i guess he just turned a blind eye to it.
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I was under the impression that interbreeding was stemmed by a law or ban on marrying even 2nd cousins which apparently was lifted in the 20th century.
It is quite a common misconception that marriages of first cousins were either illegal or frowned upon by the Church. Cousin marriages have never been in the forbidden list of kindred. The list of forbidden partners are stated in the Book of Common Prayer.
It was not only possible for first cousins [cousins-german] to marry each other; it was also quite common, having been legalized in the 1540s. Before this all provinces of the Catholic Church did agree that marriage between first cousins was essentially unacceptable.
The Act was 32 Hen VIII, c.38 (1540). [Marriage]. (Precontracting & Degrees of Consanguinity). Which says in effect that all marriages were valid unless prohibited by God's laws. 2nd . July 1540.
Among its other provisions it declared that the relationship between first cousins did not constitute a divine prohibition of affinity.
See also http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,301920.msg1839225.html#msg1839225
Stan
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mmm never seen Mongol on a census ...maybe not a term used in those times or as you say was an insult . so why use idiot :-\
John Langdon Down first described the condition later named after him in 1862, and produced a more widely published report in1866. He used the term 'mongoloid' to describe the characteristic facial features. It was not a term used before this time.
Idiot was once a perfectly acceptable term used to describe someone we would now say was mentally challenged. William Wordsworth's poem The Idiot Boy, published in 1798 was not intended in any way to make fun of or show contempt for the person who is the subject of the story being told. Wordsworth just used the word that everyone used and understood.
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A distant rellie of mine was listed on early censuses living with wife and children and occupation was a Painter, then in three subsequent censuses he was in an asylum and was listed as a lunatic. confirmed he was epileptic.
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In early days paint had lead in it and it's well known that it affects the brain. I wonder if the paint content brought about the fits?
I hadn't thought about the lead in the paint - certainly a possible cause for him developing epilepsy or something with similar symptoms. I wonder if I can put occupation "painter" and disability "idiot" into FindMyPast and see whether there are a lot of painters similarly afflicted.
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A distant rellie of mine was listed on early censuses living with wife and children and occupation was a Painter, then in three subsequent censuses he was in an asylum and was listed as a lunatic. confirmed he was epileptic.
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In early days paint had lead in it and it's well known that it affects the brain. I wonder if the paint content brought about the fits?
I hadn't thought about the lead in the paint - certainly a possible cause for him developing epilepsy or something with similar symptoms. I wonder if I can put occupation "painter" and disability "idiot" into FindMyPast and see whether there are a lot of painters similarly afflicted.
On one of those antique programmes they often show how things were made in ages gone by - it's surprising how many tradesmen put things in their mouths. For instance if your ancestor had anything to do with painting murals, or needed to paint a thin line, etc., with a fine paint brush they often rolled the mucky bristles on their tongues to get the pointed shape they wanted before they put it into the paint. What if they mixed their own paints, they'd be inhaling the lead in extra doses wouldn't they?
My other half has an ancestor who died from cancer of the face in his 40's - he manufactured a waterproof paint for use on the bottom of boats.
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Radium Jaw was also common among the workers who painted the dials of instruments with luminescent paint. They licked their brushes to 'point' them and ingested the radium from the paint.
Stan
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I wonder if the early toys also contained lead ..ie spinning tops or even early versions of meccano?
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Idiot was once a perfectly acceptable term used to describe someone we would now say was mentally challenged. William Wordsworth's poem The Idiot Boy, published in 1798 was not intended in any way to make fun of or show contempt for the person who is the subject of the story being told. Wordsworth just used the word that everyone used and understood.
I don't see anything wrong with any of the old terms; they are just words. Changing the terminology makes no difference to the conditions they describe. A minority of people will always use these terms in a derogatory fashion. This will never change, whether it be 'idiot' or 'special needs' (or whatever the current PC euphemism is).
In my lifetime there have been so many different words and expressions used, and every bright new shiny one ends up the same way, being binned as 'derogatory'. ::)
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I wonder if the early toys also contained lead ..ie spinning tops or even early versions of meccano?
They were originally manufactured to help apprentice engineers and not really toys - having said that my engineering father bought his young 8 yr old son a mechano set in 1949 - I can only remember one piece being a red colour - the rest of the pieces were plain metal.
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The same as my brothers,,,,don't think there were many red pieces.....
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I despair at times- I really do.
Liverpool looking down on Birkenhead- Ive seen it all now.
I was under the impression that interbreeding was stemmed by a law or ban on marrying even 2nd cousins which apparently was lifted in the 20th century.
I remember as a child in Liverpool being told that Birkenhead people were idiots due to interbreeding as they were surrounded by water and never moved around.
Sometimes the tales we are told have a element of truth in them ;D
Who was to police this anyway in small villages and islands in those days ;D
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Sorry no offence intended, certainly not from me, just recalling the tales told if you read the thread.......i've never looked down on anyone
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I have just read through the threads on here and someone mentioned older mothers and Downs children.
Many of those older mothers were in fact adoptive or foster mothers.
Most Downs children that I have met have all been born to younger mothers, in fact my sis-in-law was only 18 when she had her son. And when in the hospital she was told she could leave the hospital without him and he would be put up for adoption and would be cared for for the rest of his life. She could then get on with her life. She was horrified. Yes, it has been hard but the family could not imagine life without him.
2 other families I know with Downs children through work, both mothers were in their late teens early twenties. More Downs children are born to younger mothers than older women.
Nowadays with amino tests some mothers do opt for termination, but not that many. One reason you will not see so many Downs children around is that they more often than not they are at school, work, at daycare centres or at home lazing about like other kids. Most live very normal lives, even my nephew who is severly disabled by his Downs.
This is not a critiscism, just outlining some of the things I have discovered over the years.
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Since Down syndrome is a chromosomal disorder caused by an error in cell division, the likelihood of such an error occuring increases with maternal age. This means that an older mother is more likely to give birth to a child with Down sydrome than her younger counterpart. However, overall, fewer older mothers have babies than younger ones
I was under the impression it was older mother's, so googled the above
there are always exception to the rules
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The amniocentesis tests which analyse the ambniotic fluid in the womb to determine whether or not an unborn baby had Down`s syndrome was formerly only offered to older mothers -to-be.
I think the age was above 35. However I am always happy to be corrected and obviously I am not up to date with things nowadays.
I do feel that some words-terms- would be painful to me were I the mother of a child who was severely handicapped and for that reason try not to use them .
I have worked with special needs children and get very angry when some people argue that money in education spent on such children holds bright children back. So what---- bright children have it in their own hands to do well, they are very very lucky, were born lucky. It is the opposite end of the spectrum that I worry about.When you do your best for a lovely child with specal educational needs because an Educational Psychologist thinks it is worth doing, yet others think it a waste of money and you then have to defend the wages you earn doing it ,it does make you very angry.I had better close now. Getting aeriated!!! Viktoria.
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We are a little off topic now ::)
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This thread started off on what was a legitimate question-or I thought as much. Then we have silly smiles and mentions of surrounded by water etc. Im no expert but I would suggest some really need to take a closer look at social history. There was and never has been a law against 2nd cousins marrying- in fact most of you would confuse a 2nd cousin to a first cousin once removed. As for Birkenhead being surrouned by water-I never realised it was an island-perhaps some are confusing it with the Isle of Man.
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We are a little off topic now ::)
Indeed Lizzie,being new Im still trying to work out where down syndrome came into it.
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Indeed Lizzie,being new Im still trying to work out where down syndrome came into it.
I added a post but you need to read the thread to understand why, i've lost the plot too :D
Oh and welcome whatwasthat, not been on long myself either, still new to it all . but learning fast, great bunch on here who have helped me loads :)
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Im still trying to work out where down syndrome came into it.
The topic is about individuals who were described as idiots, imbeciles etc in the Victorian censuses. It seems reasonable to speculate that some might have had what is now called Down's Syndrome.
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Hi,
I've read the posts, but just wondering I have a relative that has "idiot" next to his name only on the 1881 census? Does this mean in the census's after he was cured?? ;D
The funny thing is, he doesn't appear on the 1891 or 1901 census, he wasn't with his family and doesn't appear anywhere. Wonder if this means that they institutionalised him in London??
He died when he was 72, and had 9 kids, so he was able to provide for his family.
Appreciate any idea's, as you can appreciate got to explain "idiot" notation to the family.
Nedda
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People in asylums were often listed by initials only.
You don't say when he was born, is 1881 his first appearance on a census? If he was older, and 'idiot' only appeared in later censuses, it could be a case of dementia, or possibly an accident resulting in some kind of brain damage or mental impairment.
Then again, it could just be an enumerator's error.
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Hi Sloe Gin,
He was born in 1875, he only appears as "idiot" in the 1881 census, which is really his 1st census.
As I said I can't find him on 1891 or 1901, and I have just found that he arrived in Australia in 1910, so does make me wonder where he was during those "missing" years.
So he was only 6 in the census, but you would have thought that if he was an "idiot" at 6, then there would have been minimal chances of him going on and getting employment, let alone being able to provide for a family.
Thanks
Nedda
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There was and never has been a law against 2nd cousins marrying- in fact most of you would confuse a 2nd cousin to a first cousin once removed.
Or first cousins. It was not only possible for first cousins [cousins-german] to marry each other; it was also quite common, having been legalized in the 1540s.
Stan
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ok so we may be starying from the original question, but it has been really interesting reading! i have learnt quite a lot from some of these posts.
going back to the lead thing, i read somewhere that they used to dye childrens sweets red with lead. dont know when this was though porbably before when we are talking about.
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See Adulteration and Contamination of Food in Victorian England http://www.victorianweb.org/science/health/health1.html
Stan
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oh my, it was when we are talking about then!!
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Thanks for that one again Stan.......makes you wonder how the human race survived and what future gens will find that we are contaminating ourselves with!!
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Milk was not only watered and contaminated in Victorian times, as late as the 1940s we were allocated a milkman under the wartime rationing arrangements. He delivered it in a churn and ladled out our ration with a measure. Often at least once a month when he thought his milk was going to be examined by the Public Health Inspector he would "accidentally" drop the churn so it couldn't be examined. My grandmother immediately boiled the milk for 20 minutes before any of use used it as a precaution. Very pleased to see the end of milk rationing.