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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: mellomom on Sunday 13 February 11 18:06 GMT (UK)
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It must have been a real tragedy that made Robert and Aileen Hunt foster out their 5 children. Or was it?
In the 1911 census they were living in No. 16 Curraghrabght (Blarney, Cork), Parish of Garrycloyne. There was Robert Windham Hunt(1867-1940) and his wife Aileen Elmhirst (1875-1940) with their one year old daughter, Ethne Mary (1910-1982). Also Bridget O'Sullivan, a 30 year old parlour maid from Kerry was in the house.
There soon followed 4 more children; Wyndham Norman 1912; Cecily in 1913; then twin girls Rachel and Faith.
It sounds like a great family and the Hunt grandparents gave support from nearby Limerick but shortly after the twins birth, all the children were sent to live with relatives who brought them up. Ethna was already 6 years old and sent to the UK where she was adopted by her mother's brother, Harry Elmhirst. The twins were separated, one going to aunt Dolly in Dublin.
The reasons for this breakup were kept a big dark secret. No one would talk about it and now that the last of the children has died how will we find out what happened? It can't have been financial reasons as they had a large house and a servant.
The 2 older children married and had children of their own but the 3 younger girls never married and one said that if her father had been a stronger man he would never have allowed the children to be sent away.
Can anyone out there shed any light on the mystery?
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Hi,
You say the two older children married and had children of their own, are any of them still living? Did you check the death notice or an obituary in the newspaper for 1940's when Amelia died to see if there was any reference to her health? Did Robert & Aileen continue to live in Blarney?
There is an Angelina Josepha Hunt buried 1884 at St Georges Church of Ireland in Blarney Village, any connection?
Any extra info you might have would help.
Mary
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Hello,
It does seem very sad but you seem to doubt it?
As Mary says- have you searched for evidence in the deaths - especially the death certificate of Aileen.
Was there a will or other family documents?
Family Search pilot has Robert's parents as William Lewis Hunt and Mary Brady - is that right?
If so, 1911 census has William L, aged 68 yrs, a widower so he would not be in a good position to help out much.
Perhaps, Aileen had depression or sickness after the children's births and their father couldn't cope.
regards
heywood
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Hi
Thank you both for the replies
I have not found the deaths for either Robert or Aileen. The date of 1940 comes from their 2 great grandchilden (living) whose mother was the eldest child. The mother and her siblings would not talk about it at all - they just said it was too sad to talk about. There are no other family members we could ask. Newspapers would be a good idea - can you please tell me the names of any of the local papers that may be online (I am in Cape Town so am not familiar with Ireland). Yes William and Mary were the grandparents and you are right about them not being able to give support. Sorry, my arithmatic seems poor. So far no will has come to light. Aileen could have been depressed but it seems a poor reason to part with your children.
Angelina Josepha Hunt isn't part of our family unfortunately although these Hunts also belonged to the COI.
Mel
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When families get split up it can be difficult to find the facts to back up the bits that have been passed down. Here's a few facts to clarify the details you've started with-
Here's the link to 1911 census- the daughter's name looks like Ethel Mary not Ethne Mary but I can't see a birth for either (there is an Ethel Mary born 1920 Dublin) but no Ethel, or Ethne, Hunt born Cork.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Blarney/Curraghnalaght/383499
Irish civil registration index has birth of Robert Wyndham 1868 Limerick registration district volume 10 page 569. Fits with information in 1911 census.
There is a marriage for a Robert Woodham Hunt (Oct./Dec.1909 Dublin South volume 2 page 553). Aileen Melita Elmhurst (Oct./Dec.1909 Dublin South volume 2 page 588 553)- there are 2 entries with the 2 different page numbers on LDS site.
In 1891 Census for England and Wales there's Aileen Melita Elmhirst, age 15, born Malta British Subject.
The civil registration index shows Norman Wyndham Hunt (1913 Cork), Cecily Elmhirst Hunt (Jan./Mar.1914 Limerick). Couldn't find a registration for a Faith Hunt. However, think I did find her as Priscilla Hunt July/Sept.1916 Ennistimon registration district, Co.Clare (volume 4 page 177)- there is an entry for a Rachel Hunt on the same page.
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Meant to add that Limerick registration (where Robert W. Hunt was born in 1868) is partly in Co. Limerick and partly in Co. Clare.
Only death I could find for him doesn't fit with story of him dying in 1940s- Robert Hunt death Jan./Mar.1921 Limerick registration district (age 52 so born c1869).
I can't find Aileen's death (tried searching for Aileen, Eileen, Ellen, Melita, etc.)
There are all sorts of reasons for family not talking about this sort of thing and at that time children would have been given little or no explaination of what was going on.
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It seems that Robert Wyndham Hunt married his first cousin Aileen Melita Elmhirst on 20 Nov.1909 (fits with marriage registration I found)- her mother was Frances Dorthea Hunt (both her parents were dead before Aileen's marriage).
See here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0Pmh6DPfCXcJ:www.genealogy.com/users/e/l/m/Phil-Elmhurst/FILE/0001page.html+%22robert+wyndham+hunt%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.co.uk)
Added- this Malta website gives Aileen's birthdate:
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/britisharmy1.htm
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Thanks, that info is very useful. Their first child was definitely Ethne Mary born Nov 1910. In the census the writing is rather poor. We have Norman born 'about 1912' so that entry for 1913 must be his. Rachel and Faith were twins and we never heard that Faith was really Pricilla although the family seemed keen on nicknames. It is nice to have some definite dates to work on.
Robert's father was born and lived in Limerick while his mother Mary Brady came from Co. Clare. We haven't been able to confirm Roberts death in 1940 so the one you found is more probable. We have no confirmation of Aileen's 1940 death either.
It would be interesting to know the story behind the family breakup but you are right about children being told very little. Seen and not heard!
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I realise that this may not have happened but had Aileen suffered from something like post natal depression or a mental illness, she may well have been institutionalised.
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That could well have happened. I have been trying to find her death certificate as well as finding out what institutions there were at that time. So far no luck but will keep trying. Thanks for the response.
Kind regards
Mel
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Hello
I have just picked up this thread. I am the firstborn son of Norman Windham Hunt (b. 1941) and would like to make contact with any remaining members of Hunt family - particularly mellomon in Capetown. I used to have a bible with Ethna Mary Hunt's name in the front but the bible was picked up by a house visitor and never returned. I lost contact with my father Norman when I was a teenager. My mother and father (Norman) divorced when I was young. My late mother told my wife many years ago about the (supposed) circumstances of the death of Robert Windham Hunt. I have my father's birth certificate with d.o.b. 30.11.1911 and mother Aileen Melita (nee Elmhurst) then living in Kilkee.
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Hi,
Great to make contact with you. Norman Hunt and what happened to him has been a bit of a mystery to the family. He was one of 5 children and only he and Ethna had descendants. Ethna died in 1982 but I am in contact with her daughter. I am also in contact with David Hunt who is a distant cousin of ours and who is writing the 3rd edition of the history of the Hunt family. I am sure he will also want to write to you so please can we have your email your address? Mine is (*) and I think it will be easier to write to each other that way. A lot of the Hunt's and Brady's are in contact with me so we can give you most of the details of the family. I would love to know all about you - have you just started doing your family history? Such a pity about that bible.
Kind regards
Mel Cross.
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Hi Mellomom
These look like death records worth investigating for Robert Hunt https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ARobert%20%2Bsurname%3AHunt&collection_id=1408347&death_place2=8%2CIreland%2CCounty%20Cork
name Robert Basil Hunt
registration district Cork
event type DEATHS
registration quarter and year Jan - Mar 1942
estimated birth year 1874
age (at death) 68
mother's maiden name
volume number 5
page number 60
name Thomas Robert Hunt
registration district Cork
event type DEATHS
registration quarter and year Jul - Sep 1946
estimated birth year 1885
age (at death) 61
mother's maiden name
volume number 5
page number 53
If one of those was your Robert Hunts death cert then you might find out if his wife Aileen was alive or dead at that time...
This also looks like a good match for Ethne Hunt
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBRK-4TL
name: Ethna Mary Hunt
registration district: Cork
event type: BIRTHS
registration quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1911
volume number: 5
page number: 63
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That is definitely our Ethna Hunts birth, thank you so much for that as I did not have the actual record. I will need to look into the ones for the 2 Robert's as they could be related but are not this particular Robert Wyndham Hunt as I have since found out from his tombstone that he died in 1920, not 1940. I haven't found a paper record of it though.
Cheers, Mel
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Hello,
It would be worth checking out that 1921 death for Robert. Perhaps the grave stone was inscribed later and mistakes do happen. Are there other family members in the same grave?
regards
heywood
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If you've got his date of birth now then maybe you could see if someone could check obituaries in the Cork Examiner for that date...
With Robert dying in 1920 that could explain why all of the kids were sent off to relatives, maybe their mother had died before him???
Were there any other family members buried with Robert??
After the 1911 Census do you have any other "proof" that they lived in Blarney, with the Twins being born in Clare you would wonder did Aileen either die or become sick then, with Robert dying in 1920 that didn't give much options for the children...
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Just looking back on other replies, that death record for 1921 would be a very good starting point, seeing as its registered in the Jan-Mar quarter it's possible the death took place in the last 3 months of 1920.. If you get that it should make some reference to his marital status either widowed or married man which should then help to find out more info on Aileen....
If this is his death record then it looks like they moved from Cork around 1913/1914 and didn't return, there is a death record for a Helen Hunt in 1919 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR2B-HTL when it comes to first names they were often mis heard or mis transcribed so any name that even remotely resemmbles the name your looking for is worth looking at...
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After the 1911 census I have not found any records for the parents. Robert is buried in a large family plot in Limerick with about 11 other family members. Aileen is reported as having died about 1940 but I have no proof of that. Their daughter Ethna was 10 years old when her father died but had already been living with her Aunt and Uncle Elmhirst in the UK for about 5 years. All their 4 daughters felt very bitter towards their parents and would not talk about them. Only Ethna got married. It would really answer a lot of questions if we could find out when Aileen Melita Hunt, nee Elmhirst died. I have also looked for her death in the UK with no luck.
Cheers
Mel
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Hello and many thanks to everyone who has responded to my first post on this thread!
I would just like to add a little about my father, Norman Windham Hunt. My mother, after her divorce placed me in the care of my grandparents (on her side of the family - family name Fleming). (My mother remarried in 1948.) When my grandmother died in late 1949, I was sent to a boarding (or care) school at the beginning of 1950 (Crossways) in Gorey (Co. Wicklow - now in Co. Wexford). I saw my father quite often during my stay in Gorey but I was removed from the school and returned to my mother in summer 1950. That was the last time I saw my father. I had sporadic correspondence with him (although this was not encouraged by my mother) until I was about 16. My father worked in a number of boys care homes in Australia one of which was the Swan Boys Home in Perth (Western Australia). I tended not to investigate too much in that area since there is some uncomfortable history associated with the care homes in Australia.
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there is a death record for a Helen Hunt in 1919 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR2B-HTL when it comes to first names they were often mis heard or mis transcribed so any name that even remotely resemmbles the name your looking for is worth looking at...
The age is out here but that can happen. There is no Helen Hunt in 1911 in Limerick so it would be worth checking.
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Just a footnote on the Co. Clare connection. After my mother and father (Norman Windham Hunt) separated/divorced, I went on a holiday with him to Kilkee, Co. Clare - which is where Robert and Aileen lived, according to my father's birth certificate. I was about six at the time so it is possible that my holiday visit was to enable my father's family to see me! I remember some things about Kilkee and the surroundings and even have a photograph of me looking into the sea at Loop Head.
I seem to remember being told that Robert Windham Hunt held a fairly high post in Irish politics; does that make sense to anyone?
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Might be family tree details through this site? Robert Windham Hunt listed:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tompkins/names/dunning-names.html
Robert Hunt shown as retired military officer in 1911- no clue to a political roll there:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Blarney/Curraghnalaght/383499/
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Heywood
For me when it comes to peoples ages I take no notice of ages on death certs to a certain extent, i'd allow about 10 years either side of their known age, I've a few death certs where their ages are out by 10 years or so compared to census or birth certs.. I'd always allow 10 years either side of the known age when searching for a death record, if I didn't find one I'd allow 15 years either side....
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Revin Kevin
I'd imagine if Robert Hunt was connected in politics it would come up somewhere in google but thats not to say he isn't though!
Loop head is a lovely spot, we often go up there for a drive...
Wonder was it when you visited that that might have been when Aileen Hunt died??
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Another thing I was thinking about today is if Robert Hunt died in 1920 and Aileen didn't die until the 1940's thats 20 or so years in between, I wonder if she got married again in this time which would explain the lack of a death cert..
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I have a picture of me at Loop Head dated summer 1947 and will scan and post later.
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Loop Head Lighthouse is now open to the public so the drive out there is even more worth while!!
On Harry Elmhirst, there are a lot of connections on Ancestry for Harry Elmhirst, his death record, will etc, I've found at times that side stepping with siblings to see where they've ended up often leads to more info especially so with the Electoral registers in London where I've found one person with others, along with military records, a British Overseas birth cert led to me finding a military record that then had other little bits of info..
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Death Registered for ELLEN HUNT est birth year 1874. Reg District Cork. March 1946
Vol 5 Page 85
Could be Aileens name mistranscribed?
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Remember that Eileen/Aileen are forms of Helen/Ellen- perhaps she was christened with one name but used another form (especially if 2 Ellens in the family, etc.).
Added- "Aileen Melita ELMHIRST, born 8th May 1875, the daughter of Frances Dorothea and Major-General Charles Elmhirst"
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/britisharmy1.htm
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I noticed that the 1911 Irish Census image states that Aileen being born India.In spite of the Malta info.
Could this be her second marriage.
Hunt Eileen M.
Bangalore 1922.
Spouse name, George W Reid.
Page 60.
Army marriages 1881-1955.
Brionne.
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I noticed that the 1911 Irish Census image states that Aileen being born India.In spite of the Malta info.
Could this be her second marriage.
Hunt Eileen M.
Bangalore 1922.
Spouse name, George W Reid.
Page 60.
Army marriages 1881-1955.
Brionne.
This Eileen M Hunt was born 1904 :)
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Thanks for verifying this,so its back to square one.
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Hello again,
in your first post Mel, you mentioned the grandparents as giving support and I later posted that grandfather was 68 yrs in 1911 and widowed so this may have been a family story. In 1901 census it looks as though Robert and brother George were 'prospectors' :-\
The obituary for William Louis Hunt (is that grandfather?) does not mention his son Robert - nor George. http://limerickcity.ie/media/11%2020%201919%20hunt%20fnl.pdf
What a mystery :-\
heywood
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Have been sitting here for a while tonight trying to figure this all out- no new real information but a few comments/ideas.
1) obituary for Robert Hunt's father does not mention him or brother George- the obituary is typical for its time and lists the chief mourners so it looks like neither of them were at the funeral. Is there a year for W.L. Hunt's death?
2) 1911 census shows Robert W. Hunt as retired military officer- is it possible he also served in WWI- and if so, could this be connected to the dispersal of the family.
3) think it would be worth getting the death certificate for Robert Hunt 1921- will give place of death and usual residence (if not place of death), marital status, occupation and informant.
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W L Hunt died 1919
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W L Hunt died 1919
So, very close to possible date of death for son Robert which may explain his absence from the funeral.
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Death notice for W. L. Hunt but Robert and George not mentioned-
http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/11%2018%201919%20hunt%20obit.pdf
announcement-
http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/11%2018%201919%20hunt,%20clune%20in%20mem%201918.pdf
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Mary Hunt had died in 1907 http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/hunt%20funeral.pdf
On that site there is no announcement or obituary for a Robert in 1920/21 :-\
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George was actually William George and he and Robert came to South Africa and although the census says prospectors, George was actually with the Cape Mounted Rifles then changed to the British SA Police. He was my grandfather. He married and in WW1 he first served in SWA then joined Baileys South African Sharpshooters. He was sent to France in 1916 and 2 weeks after landing was killed. So he died before his father. When I first started this query I knew very little about the family and did not know when Robert's parents died but it's now obvious that they could not have done much to help the family with whatever the problem was.
I don't think Aileen could have married again as in 1920 their eldest daughter was 10 years old and would surely have had some knowledge of this. The daughter was living with her mother's brother and family in the UK. I think finding out what happened to Aileen after Roberts death is the key to the mystery. How would I find out if she was in a sanatorium or something like that?
Thanks everyone, for all the help and suggestions
Mel
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Thanks for that information. I think I would start with Robert's death to see how he is described and who was the informant.
Are you sure that he is interred in that family grave?
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It does seem still very unclear if your relative really was admitted to an asylum...however just to give a possible hint for future research..I managed to find a death certificate placing a relative as dying at the Cork District Lunatic Asylum in 1909...(....it was once the longest building in Ireland and still sits grandly looking over back towards the town)...I can't recall where I came by this contact but the Dept of Consumer Affairs, Health Service Executive South, Wilton Rd Cork was able to provide me with a number of details of my relatives admission and illness. I have an email of a staff member there who was very helpful and I'll send it on to you. In those days long term asylum admissions were centralised so there were patients from all over Cork. It maybe a long shot but you never know?
Padraig
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As this family were of means,is it possible that Aileen drowned at sea.
There are no less than seven Hunt deaths at sea between 1919 and 1923.
The images on FindMyPast show two passenger deaths in red. Maritime BMDs.[details are sparse]
Ship Egba, May 1919.
Hunt.
Ship, Mersing August 1919.
Hunt.
Brionne.
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This is the timeline for the Hunt Family
Irish civil registration index has birth of Robert Wyndham 1868 Limerick registration district volume 10 page 569. Fits with information in 1911 census.
There is a marriage for a Robert Woodham Hunt (Oct./Dec.1909 Dublin South volume 2 page 553). Aileen Melita Elmhurst (Oct./Dec.1909 Dublin South volume 2 page 588 553)- there are 2 entries with the 2 different page numbers on LDS site.
1907 Mary Hunt (Roberts Mother) Died
1909 - Robert and Aileen Marry
Norman Wyndham Hunt (1913 Cork),
Ethna Mary Hunt: Jan - Mar 1911 (Cork)
Cecily Elmhirst Hunt (Jan./Mar.1914 Limerick).
Priscilla Hunt July/Sept.1916 Ennistimon registration district, Co.Clare (volume 4 page 177)-
Rachel Hunt on the same page.
1919 - William Louis Hunt (Roberts Father) Died
There is no mention of Aileen in William Louis Hunts Funeral announcement but there is a mention of another Daughter in Law, so by this time the "story" might have happened....
It might be worth posting a link to this thread on the Clare and Limerick boards too...
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I meant to add too in terms of Aileen Marrying again, I've a British Army man who married a Cork woman in 1903, they had 3 children in South Africa between 1904 and 1907/1908, his wife died in 1908 so he sent the 3 kids back to Cork to their grandparents, he finished in the Army in 1919, but in 1915 remarried and lived in London with his second wife and her daughter, his own 3 kids stayed in Cork, so I wouldn't rule out Aileen marrying again either and just leaving her kids where they were.... Unfortunately in those times kids weren't told a whole lot about what was going on..
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BRIONNE. Did you know that Aileens mother was Frances Dorothea HUNT b. Limerick 1838
Married Charles Elmhirst in Limerick 9th January 1861 Vol 6 Page 642. She died 29th Sept 1904
Charles died 1893. Is there a connection to Aileen (Hunt) husband from her mother?
Aileens brother Harry Rochfort Elmhurst b. 1863 Corfu Greece, married Agnes Lockwood in Yorkshire 1907. He died in 1937.
You probably know there are several online trees ref Aileens parents - thought they may hold some clue, but all state Aileen died in 1940 - no documentary evidence :)
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Hi Ballydw,thanks for the info,have looked at this puzzle from so many angles,but not getting anywhere.
The fact that Aileens death is put at 1940 in various trees,makes me wonder if the details are known to someone.As this was a British protestant military family,could be that her death or name details were changed deliberately, due to whayever took place,not unknown in some circles.
I never believe anything until I can prove it properly,was why had looked at sea deaths for earlier years.
Aileen, could of course just cleared off with another man leaving her children, going abroad.What about death in childbirth,have the Irish records been searched well.Eventually some clue will appear from someone or other .
Brionne.
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Is there a connection to Aileen (Hunt) husband from her mother?
Robert & Aileen were cousins.It seems that Robert Wyndham Hunt married his first cousin Aileen Melita Elmhirst on 20 Nov.1909 (fits with marriage registration I found)- her mother was Frances Dorthea Hunt (both her parents were dead before Aileen's marriage).
The fact that Aileens death is put at 1940 in various trees,makes me wonder if the details are known to someone.As this was a British protestant military family,could be that her death or name details were changed deliberately, due to whayever took place,not unknown in some circles.
Highly unlikely.
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I would say that the death certificate for Robert should be checked- even if only for elimination purposes. It may give some clue re his status at the time.
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Mary Hunt's obituary says she is interred in the family vault at St Mary's Cathedral. Presumably, this is a Brady vault?
William L Hunt was buried St Paul's cemetery, Glin.
Where is Robert buried?
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MELLOMOM
There is a ship passenger record for a Mrs A M Hunt b. 1875 travelling to a UK address arriving London 1st June 1928. Last Permanent residence USA. Departure Vancouver. British Columbia :)
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Ballydw
I think that you have found the answer. Robert Hunt had a brother Harry Brady Hunt, married to Lady Ernestine Brudenell-Bruce, both of them master mariners who often sailed to the USA. Ernestine also had a racing horse a stud farm there. Both Harry and Ernie were in Glin with Harry's father for the year before he died in 1919 and would have had contact with his brother and family. It would have made perfect sense for them to have taken Aileen with them after her husbands death.
Robert is buried at St Mary's Cathedral in Limerick in the same plot as Mary Hunt. His name is inscribed on one of the upright post surrounding the plot.
Padraig
Yes please do send me the email of the staff member in the Dept of Consumer Affairs. I think I need to follow all leads until we clear up the mystery.
I really appreciate all the help. Thanks.
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There is a ship passenger record for a Mrs A M Hunt b. 1875 travelling to a UK address arriving London 1st June 1928. Last Permanent residence USA. Departure Vancouver. British Columbia :)
Think she was Alice Maud Hunt, widow, born England- went to Quebec 1920, to U.S. 1922 and living in Los Angeles, california 1930 (importer- antique).
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I notice that the Irish Census 1911 gives Sir Geo Colthurst as the landowner of the property which the newly married Hunts were living in Blarney.He owned vast estates in Cork,am I correct.
My question to others more knowledgeable than myself is this.
Is this the same family as the officer John Bowen- Colthurst who shot Francis Skeffington during the 1916 uprising.Could there be some connection to Aileen Hunt ,did she get involved at that time as so many of the educated women did.
Brionne.
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It can't have been financial reasons as they had a large house and a servant.
There was a big stock market crash in 1916 in US
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Sorry to keep asking the same question and making the same suggestion:
Is Robert definitely buried in that family vault and not just commemorated there and if so, is there a death certificate for him?
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Heywood you are absolutely right,that certificate can lead the accurate way forward on this mystery.
Brionne.
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hmm ... 1916 .... Irish uprising ??? Don't know if the area they lived in was affected
just trying to think out some other scenerios ... if the daughter was 6 when sent to UK it was around 1916 you have 2 events a stock market crash (which if wealthy family may have hit them) and the Irish rebellion
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don't know if this is of interest
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?btnsearch=search&SessionID=25654367&event=marriages&fname=&form=IndexingSearch&frange=1788&gname=&mname=&place=&sname=BEARD&trange=1959&reorder=regno&page=12
Gives a marriage 1937 of an Eileen Melita Turner to an Albert Edward Beard in Rozelle district
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hmm ... 1916 .... Irish uprising ??? Don't know if the area they lived in was affected
just trying to think out some other scenerios ... if the daughter was 6 when sent to UK it was around 1916 you have 2 events a stock market crash (which if wealthy family may have hit them) and the Irish rebellion
Aileen had the twin girls in 1916.
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sorry you said Ethna was 6 and born 1910 but didn't say when twins born . so do you know as far as you are able with family stories if all the children went off at same time or in dribs and drabs?
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Right, back to the beginning (again) here to sort out a few things.
Chronology-
1868 birth of Robert Wyndham Hunter in Limerick
1875 birth of Aileen Melita Elmhirst in Malta
1891 census England: Aileen Melita Elmhirst, age 15, born Malta
1907 death of Robert’s mother Mary Hunt
1909 marriage of Robert Hunter & Aileen Elmhirst in Dublin
1910 birth of Ethne Mary Hunt
1911 census (1) Curraghnalaght, Cork: Robert Windham Hunt (retired military officer), wife Aileen, dau. Ethne, parlourmaid.
1913 birth of Norman Wyndham Hunt in Cork
1913 birth of Cecily Elmhirst in Limerick
1916 (2) death of Robert’s brother (William) George
1916 birth of twins Rachel and Faith (Priscilla) in Ennistimon dist., Clare
c1916 Ethne (age 6) sent to uncle Harry Elmhirst in England, one of twins to Aunt Dolly, Dublin
1919 Robert’s father W.L. Hunt dies
1920 (3) date on gravestone for death of Robert Hunt
1921 (4) death registration for a Robert Hunt (born c1869) in Limerick dist.
1940 (5) supposed death of Robert Hunt & wife Aileen
(1) Robert was retired military officer. Quite possible he enlisted/was called up? in WWI. Can military records be searched to see if medical/death details, information on wife, etc. given?
(2) Robert's brother George died in 1916 around the time twins were born and children dispersed amongst relations. Could he have been injured in War or had a breakdown?
(3) do you have an exact date of death from the memorial or just the year? If exact date then would be worth searching for newspaper obituary, etc.
(4) death registration for Robert Hunt 1920- we have been saying for days that this is the next logical step. If it is Robert his marital status will confirm if Aileen dead or alive, cause and place of death might have bearing on family breakdown, informant may provide further clues.
(5) only basis for this seems to be family story which might not be reliable.
continued in next post...
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… My late mother told my wife many years ago about the (supposed) circumstances of the death of Robert Windham Hunt. I have my father's birth certificate with d.o.b. 30.11.1911 and mother Aileen Melita (nee Elmhurst) then living in Kilkee.
Kevin- did you ever hear the story your mother told about Robert's death? (don't worry if you'd rather not give the details here)
... Robert Wyndham Hunt as I have since found out from his tombstone that he died in 1920, not 1940. I haven't found a paper record of it though.
The 1920 death certificate would probably confirm this, especially if memorial has exact date of death.
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Thanks aghadowey.
After reading that list and the initial post- we don't know where all the children went. Was Aunt Dolly a Hunt or an Elmhirst?
I wonder were they all taken by just one parental side which again may have some bearing on the cause. It seems sad that twins were split up.
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If Robert did die in 1920 there is a death registered in March 1921 for a Robert Hunt Limerick District Vol 5 Page 239. Might be worth getting in order to rule in or out when he actually did die.
Aghadowey had posted this when I realised you had mentioned this death in your compilation earlier. :)
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Another thought- does anyone have the 1909 marriage certificate for Robert and Aileen- would be interesting to know Robert's marital status and occupation as well as witnesses.
After reading that list and the initial post- we don't know where all the children went. Was Aunt Dolly a Hunt or an Elmhirst?
Wonder if 'Aunt Dolly' was Dorothy Frances Elmhirst (Aileen's sister).
1957 ELMHIRST Dorothy Frances of Westbury Lodge Kilkee county Clare spinster died 30 August 1957 ay St. John of God Nursing Home Ennis county Clare probate London 25 November to Barbara Emiline Maconchy spinster. Effects £3897 9s 7d in England.
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If Robert did die in 1920 there is a death registered in March 1921 for a Robert Hunt Limerick District Vol 5 Page 239. Might be worth getting in order to rule in or out when he actually did die.
Aghadowey had posted this when I realised you had mentioned this death in your compilation earlier. :)
It has been posted and enquired about several times I think now. There is another Robert H in census- perhaps a relative but he is younger.
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Dorothy Elmhurst is in 6 Wellington Square, 30 west end (Kilkee Clare) in 1911 age 30 with
Amelia Maynard 58, Nurse, Elizabeth Darcy Servant 22.
Dorothy was the youngest in Aileens family b. c 1881 :)
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Found this lady yesterday,Have not investigated the family but may be cousins of Aileen. FindMyPast is down tonight,so cannot access census to confirm.
Miss Maud Elmhirst age 48 companion single.
15 Feb 1923.
Ship, Karmala.
London to Penang.
For permanent residence Straits Settlement.
Born Knaresborough Yorkshire 1874 reg Sept.Daughter of clergyman.
Brionne.
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Priscilla died in Kilkee http://www.clare.fm/node/4891
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Well found, heywood. Certainly confirms 2 names for that twin :)
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Cecily Elmhirst Hunt died 2010-
http://www.iannounce.co.uk/United-Kingdom/23?_fstatus=search;keywords=HUNT%20Cecily
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Priscilla died in Kilkee http://www.clare.fm/node/4891
She is buried in KILFERAGH graveyard - wonder would Aileen be there also?
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Priscilla died in Kilkee http://www.clare.fm/node/4891
She is buried in KILFERAGH graveyard - wonder would Aileen be there also?
Not listed in this transcript- if this is the right place?
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/don_tran/graves/kilfearagh_graveyard_kilkee_transcriptions.htm
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I wonder if there is an Elmhirst family vault somewhere?
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Both 1881 /91 give Aileens father Lt General Charles Elmhirst as born Holton Lincolnshire c 1816.
Would imagine there is a family vault somewhere. however, 25 year age gap between him and Aileens mother,Frances Dorothy.
Is she the second wife.
Brionne.
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Link to Elmhirst family tree posted earlier in thread- only the one marriage showing but perhaps he married later in life if a career officer-
It seems that Robert Wyndham Hunt married his first cousin Aileen Melita Elmhirst on 20 Nov.1909 (fits with marriage registration I found)- her mother was Frances Dorthea Hunt (both her parents were dead before Aileen's marriage).
See here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0Pmh6DPfCXcJ:www.genealogy.com/users/e/l/m/Phil-Elmhurst/FILE/0001page.html+%22robert+wyndham+hunt%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.co.uk)
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A most interesting Elmhirst family tree.
Can now understand why Aileens place of birth is given as India on 1911.
Father Charles Elmhirst commanded the Mysore Div 1 A from 1875 to 1879.
Its going to be difficult to pin down a family vault for this family, members being scattered in Ontario, Yorkshire/Lincolnshire England besides Australia. Can well understand how Aileens burial place has never been discovered. Would imagine it was never intended to be, especially as her childrens whereabouts and names were also changed. Wonder if it was a medical problem that Aileen had, not necessarily a mental one, there have been cases where children were removed from mothers with a certain condition which would rather not mention on here.
Obviously first place to look for her burial must be Ireland, her name has been altered somehow.
Not much help, but am fascinated by this story.
Brionne.
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On FindMyPast They have a Robert W Hunt appearing in records for Irish Petty Sessions Court Register for 1905 Limerick ... don't have right sub to view transcript to see what it's about or if it is him - if of interest ..
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/world/transcripts?tid=IRE%2fPETTYS%2f4619546%2f00134%2f2486204&Collection=Courts%20utf0026%20Legal&Collection=Newspapers%20utf0026%20Magazines&Keyword=&EventYear=1320&LastName=hunt&EventYear_offset=2006&FirstName_variants=true&Region=All&SourceCategory=Institutions%20utf0026%20Organisations&SourceCategory=Newspapersutf002c%20Directories%20utf0026%20Social%20History&FirstName=robert%20windham
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I only have the basic FindMyPast subscription so cannot access this.
Sounds interesting,Brionne.
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This is what I love about Genealogy, you get an odd family story, opinions of people from different countrys where different traditions were followed and you get some very interesting responses!
To me it looks like Aileen Elmhirst might have just possibly not wanted kids, had them, then her husband died and she wasn't particulary interested in them, in Ireland at that time there were quite a lot of kids living with other people, sometimes they just simply couldn't afford them so family members took them in seeing as it was the time of the Easter Rising in Ireland it's highly possible that the children were dispersed to ensure they were looked after, there are so many possiblities but I really do think that death cert form 1921 would be the best starting point at this stage to see if its for the right person firstly and if so what his marital status was.....
Just browsing the Prison records on Familysearch and came across this record for a George Hunt
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMQF-36F
1911 George Hunt, prisoner, Cork Co. Cork, age 29, born Newcastle West, Desert From Royal Scots Fusiliers
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I can't see any indication in anything found so far that indicated Aileen didn't want or wasn't interested in her children. The last trace of her is really the birth of the twins in 1916. Family story was that she and Robert died 1940 and we now have indication that Robert died 1920 not 1940 so date for Aileen's death could be off as well.
Years ago children were generally not given any explanations of what was going on in the family and splitting up children was quite common as there probably wasn't any relation that could taken several children into their home.
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Loudam,the Irish 1911 gives Robert Hunt as age 40,retired Army Officer on the image.So not the the deserter you found.
This family were of some standing and not poor by any means.
Brionne.
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Loudam,the Irish 1911 gives Robert Hunt as age 40,retired Army Officer on the image.So not the the deserter you found.
This family were of some standing and not poor by any means.
Brionne.
The prison record was for a George Hunt. Think he's the wrong age to be Robert's brother and wasn't George in South Africa at that time?
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They were in South Africa but mellowmum doesn't say when they went there and he was in France in 1916...
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It is very interesting to us all- hence the speculation. With the absence of wills and maybe land records,it is difficult to ascertain whether this branch of the family retained their money.
There seems to have been a move to Clare. The twins were born there and Priscilla died there.
If I recall the Bradys were from Clare.
I read that Elenor Fitgerald Gloster died at the Kilkee address. Perhaps a family connection.
I think more could be discovered perhaps with the twins birth certificates- the last known address and then investigate that death for Robert.
Heywood
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They were in South Africa but mellowmum doesn't say when they went there and he was in France in 1916...
See reply #38.
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mellowmum
Have you seen the photo on Ancestry of Robert & Aileen with William and Mary Hunt??
I also wonder given the time and that Aileen was English would this have been a reason for all the unheaval...
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mellowmum doesn't state when George and Robert came to South Africa in that post, in 1911 Robert was still living in Cork so it must have been after 1911 that he went.....
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mellowmum
Have you seen the photo on Ancestry of Robert & Aileen with William and Mary Hunt??
I also wonder given the time and that Aileen was English would this have been a reason for all the unheaval...
photo originally came from "a living cousin in Devon" so if it wasn't mellowmum that originally submitted it this would perhaps be another relative to contact for more details.
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Cecily Elmhirst Hunt died 2010-
http://www.iannounce.co.uk/United-Kingdom/23?_fstatus=search;keywords=HUNT%20Cecily
This could be the relative in Devon as Cecily died in Plymouth
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Hi,
I mentioned a Hunt burial at Garrycloyne Church of Ireland cemetery which is located on
the Village Green, Blarney to you when I replied earlier to your initial post and you said these Hunts were not related to your Hunts.
I have now discovered these Hunts claimed descent from Thomas Hunt of Warwick County,
a Captain in Colonel Chidley Coote's Regiment of Horse in Ireland between 1646-9 . These
Hunts were related to Lombards & Stopfords as written by Richard Henchion in the
Cork Historical & Archaeological Society article titled "Gravestone Inscriptions of Co. Cork XVII
Blarney C of I cemetery. Do you know if your Hunt family are descended from the Hunts of
Warwick County?
I made enquiries today at the Cork City library to see if there was any mention of your
Hunts in any publications held there and unfortunately not. I was hoping there might
have been a newspaper surname index relating to newspapers held on microfilm or actual
newspapers but unfortunately they are not indexed, you would have to look through the
relevant dates so no luck there either.
The only reference I found to any Hunts in Co. Clare was in relation to two Hunt brothers from Corofin who were detained by the British forces in 1916. Probably unlikely they are related to
your Hunt family???? If by some chance they were connected it would certainly be a reason
to send the children to other places for their safety. Pure speculation on my part, but we are
all trying to throw some light on the situation.
I think it might be worth placing a query on the Limerick or Clare boards. Maybe the
moderators might not agree with me but it might be worth a try.
There is a "Hunt museum" in Limerick do you think your Hunt family are connected to them?
This is really like a riddle for all of us rootchatters and it would be nice if we could solve it for you.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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I think it might be worth placing a query on the Limerick or Clare boards. Maybe the
moderators might not agree with me but it might be worth a try.
Duplicate topics on different boards usually cause confusion and extra work for those trying to help so best to stick to this one topic.
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This Hunt family descends from the Hunts of Gosfield, Essex. There was a John Hunt who went to Ireland in about 1650. Unfortunately the Hunt museum in Limerick is not connected to this family. Robert and George (William George) went out to SA and returned to Ireland by 1901 then George went back there and got married. The photo of Robert, Aileen, William and Mary Hunt was given to me by Robert's granddaughter. She would love to know why her mother and aunts were brought up by relatives but none of them would talk about it. Cecily told her it was too sad to talk about. Priscilla lived alone in Kilkee and did not encourage family visits. Her neighbours arranged her funeral so I'm sure Aileen in not buried near her. Priscilla left her house to her neighbours as they had taken care of her. The children's names don't seem to have been changed at all but most of them were sent to England.
It is a real puzzle. Thanks for all the trouble taken to help solve it.
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It's an interesting story with so many possible theories (I can think of at least 7 straight off the bat!) which has captured our imagination. I hope if you do get to the bottom of it you let us all know!
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mellomom
What sometimes seemed like a terrible tragedy in those times to the people and then their kids too, sometimes turns out sometimes to not be as big of tragedy, its because of the times then when children didn't ask questions, were told not to and the story becomes more tragic the more often it's said to not talk about it..
It looks like Lady Ernestine was quite a little independant woman, I wonder did Aileen get on with her, she may have encouraged her to become a little bit independant too!
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Actually thinking about things Aileen had her last child in 1916 and in William Hunts Death notice and funeral arrangements she isn't mentioned, seeing as Ernestine is mentioned does anyone know if this is significant?? Was it a case because Lady Ernestine sent a Wreath was why she was mentioned, if it's not usual for the Daughter in law to be omitted, then it puts a time frame on when things happened...
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It certainly has captured our imagination as there seems to be so little known about the family- particularly Robert and Aileen.
The 1916 birth certificate for the twins would hopefully give his occupation (if any) and their address at the time.
The death certificate for Robert (if that is him) would give his occupation, status and address.
At least then there would be a bit more information about him for you.
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I'm not sure if you've seen that Harry Brady Hunt and Lady Ernestine had a child in Kerry in 1898 It might be worth seeing where he ended up to see if theres any info from any family he may have had http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3c0e910011485
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I'm not sure if you've seen that Harry Brady Hunt and Lady Ernestine had a child in Kerry in 1898 It might be worth seeing where he ended up to see if theres any info from any family he may have had http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3c0e910011485
Sadly he died in World War 1 and seems to have been their only child
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Actually thinking about things Aileen had her last child in 1916 and in William Hunts Death notice and funeral arrangements she isn't mentioned, seeing as Ernestine is mentioned does anyone know if this is significant?? Was it a case because Lady Ernestine sent a Wreath was why she was mentioned, if it's not usual for the Daughter in law to be omitted, then it puts a time frame on when things happened...
Aileen was mentioned in Mary Hunts obituary notice in 1907 " a wreath from Miss Elmhurst", but she hadnt married by then :)
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ballydw
I saw that after I posted that he had died in WW1...
I also did wonder why as the Girlfriend of her son she was mentioned in Mary Hunts Obituary, whereas as William Hunts Daughter In Law she wasn't mentioned in his obituary.. This might give the time frame as to when what ever happened actually happened..... Plus the comment by one of her children that if her father had been a stronger man he would never have allowed his kids to be sent away suggests to me that Aileen was the one who suggested the kids be sent away and seeing as he died in 1920 then it only leaves about 4 years for all of this to happen....
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Loudam, obviously when she was mentioned in Marys obituary they werent yet married but by time her husband died, there must have been problems, cant recall exact yearWilliam died.
Beginning to wonder did she change her name, as I have searched under maiden/married names, all scenarios to no avail.
Did find a death for Aileen L Hunt b. about 1877 d. 1955 Uxbridge, Middlesex UK
Ellen M Hunt b. 1875 D. 1930, Lambeth Greater London
Ellen M Hunt b. c 1876 d. 1963 New Forest Hampshire UK
Unfortunately there is no way of knowing if any of these apply.
Someone posted earlier who was related to Aileens son Wyndham Norman, but its totally perplexing to say the least that any of her children wouldnt have had information/contact in later years in spite of any problems that were there that prompted Aileen to send them all away. ::)
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Remember that Robert Hunter and Aileen Elmhirst were cousins- so not unusual that she is mentioned when Mary died (especially if Robert and Aileen were engaged at the time).
It's not a bit surprising that the children would not know details of what happened to their parents. It may even be that they were told different versions by the people looking after them if told anything at all.
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William died in 1919.... for her to be omitted from the obituary and one of her children saying their father should have been a stronger man would suggest something happened before 1919 because Robert died in 1920.....
I think an obituary for Robert Hunt might shed a little more light on things too...
I wonder about her name too, or did she change it to something like Mary Hunt, Ann Hunt etc, the typical irish names which there are a few death records for that might be worth mellowmom ordering especially Limerick and Clare ones, because while the name might not be the name she was known as the name of an informant or the address might give some of a clue....
We have a situation in our family where we can't trace my grandmothers mother, we suspect one woman and we think someone does know who her mother was but just won't say and I know my dad and his siblings as kids when they asked about her family we're given a fairly sharp warning of don't ask again!
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It's not a bit surprising that the children would not know details of what happened to their parents. It may even be that they were told different versions by the people looking after them if told anything at all.
This is what we're finding with my fathers family, all of his siblings have different versions of the same story, and all have little snippets of info that make the puzzle a little clearer as time goes on, but it is very obvious that no one asked questions back in those days...
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The obituaries for W.L. Hunt is typical of ones in Irish newspapers of the time. Chief mourners & wreaths, dignitaries mentioned but often there were errors and omissions in such reports so I don't think it's significant as far as Aileen goes. Robert's omission is more interesting (women didn't attend funerals and Robert was the son after all)- possible reasons are endless but here are just a few:
illness (tuberculosis, cancer- both taboo subjects)
alcohol or drug problems (yes, even then)
mental illness (certainly misunderstood and not talked about)
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I must be having a slow moment, but where it says Captain H.B Hunt, R.N. (Son) I took the R.N to be Robert!
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Death for Ellen Hunt est birth year 1874. Registered March 1946 Cork. Vol 5 Page 85
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Death for Ellen Hunt est birth year 1874. Registered March 1946 Cork. Vol 5 Page 85
You've already posted this-
Death Registered for ELLEN HUNT est birth year 1874. Reg District Cork. March 1946
Vol 5 Page 85
Could be Aileens name mistranscribed?
Date is Jan./March 1946 quarter.
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Just seen this thread....I'm related to the Eileen Hunt who was born in India ...if anyone has any more information on her I'd be very grateful...