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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Nick29 on Saturday 12 February 11 13:08 GMT (UK)
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OK, here's a picture of my
great aunt Alice who was born in Greenwich, London in 1905, pictured with her husband. They married in Greenwich in 1929.
Can anyone comment on......
Their odd clothing ?
Where the picture was taken (obviously a sea-side resort somewhere, possibly on the south coast) ?
Anything else that you notice ?
Thanks........ :)
P.S. This was scanned by someone else - I don't have the original.
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Fascinating photo Nick. What is Alice holding in her left hand? I can't make it out.
As well as the fact that they're wearing identical clothing, I've noticed that their shoes are also the same - and look quite pointed with an unusual band across the top, which brings to mind some kind of dancing, though the oufits don't fit with that idea - long socks too? :-\ ... they're not morris dancers or some such thing are they? :-\
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I think she's holding a toy teddy bear - often offered as prizes at seaside stalls.
I don't know anything about her later life, only that she was one of non-identical twins, and her mother died a week after she was born.
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Shorts I can understand to a point, but still they seem to look a bit out
of place.
Could this have been a cycling holiday, bearing in mind the shoes and long
socks?
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my try
sylvia
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Just googled and it doesn't look like any morris dancing images I can see.
I would have thought something like scouts (though it's not scouts) - due to the utiliarian uniform ... apart from the shoes which look like they have straps. Do the shirts have a zip front?
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What uniform in that era would be the same for both men and women? Unless they are having a joke of some sort by both wearing identical outfits ... :-\ Shorts would have been unusual for 'ladies' at that time, wouldn't they? The sox have a pattern along the top.
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Elasticated ends to the sleeves. Seem to remember clothes like that in 50s / 60s.
His hair is rather long for the days of short back and sides. So he was Arty or was this in 60s. Compare his with the man behind with the small case. He is holding a cigarette but that's not unusual.
Her knees are white suggesting she did not expose them much.
The place could be practically anywhere.
What uniform did Oswald Mosely's lot wear?
Bryan
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The hairstyles of both women visible in the picture is definitely 30's, and she was born in 1905, so would be 45 to 55 in the 50's/60s.
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Elasticated ends to the sleeves.
What uniform did Oswald Moseley's lot wear?
Yes, unusual elaticised wristbands ...
Moseley's lot wore black shirts but with no collar - kindof Russian looking. The women wore a black shirt and tie I think (watched the new Upstairs Downstairs last week ;D)
I think Alice looks very young in that photo.
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Here's another picture of Alice - I think she was even younger in this.
I'm having trouble finding much out about her husband.
He was John PAGE, and he was born in Deptford, London on 30 Oct 1899, and baptised in St. Nicholas, Deptford on 6 Dec 1899.
His father David PAGE, married to Mary WALL, appears to have been a Seaman, and I've had trouble locating any of them in the 1901 census.
When David PAGE married Mary WALL, the address given was 38 Shepherd's Buildings, Roan Street, Greenwich.
I think I've found David Page on the 1911 census, but he was on his own, working as a night watchman on the ship "Taurus", and I can't find the rest of the family. I'm not requesting a lookup, but a census reference would be welcomed, so I can find it myself :)
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A couple of thoughts - I don't think this was an outfit for cycling, but it could have been for hiking.
When I first saw this picture, I got the immediate impression that the outfits were made out of corduroy. Corduroy is a very thick fabric, which results in bulky seams and hems.
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Would you assume this was taken just prior to or after their marriage?
I did look at images of cycling clothing but this doesn't look like any I found.
Hiking is a possibility, but it still seems odd that they are both wearing exactly the same outfits - even if they belonged to a hiking club you would expect Alice to wear a woman's version of the outfit.
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I'd think that she has not yet had any children which would make it (probably) before 1930.
FreeBMD gives
Marriages Sep 1929
HARBERS Winifred M Whittaker Greenwich 1d 2270
Martin Alice Page Greenwich 1d 2270
Page John Martin Greenwich 1d 2270
Whittaker Thomas A Harbers Greenwich 1d 2270
And these possible children
Births Dec qtr 1930
Page Douglas F (Martin) Woolwich 1d 1394
Births Dec qtr 1936
PAGE Anthony A W (Martin) Woolwich 1d 1278
The shadows suggest that they were on a south or east facing resort so Margate is unlikely.
Bryan
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I think this was taken prior to the marriage. Unfortunately they didn't have any children, so the seaside picture could have been taken 6 weeks or 6 years after their marriage.
I think I've found the family in 1911 - RG14PN2638 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED15 SN389
David Page is not on the census page, but he's the one who filled in the form. Also, the number of years married and number of children born & still alive (which David mistakenly filled in on his census form) matches this one. There's only one problem - there's no John Page ! ::)
And sorry Bryan - I forgot to say, Alice's maiden name was MARTIN.
P.S. Does John Page's demeanour suggest that he may have been in the army ?
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My mother and I both wore pedal-pushers which came to just below the knee when they came into fashion c1954. The ones the lady is wearing are not pedal-pushers.
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Elasticated ends to the sleeves. Seem to remember clothes like that in 50s / 60s.
His hair is rather long for the days of short back and sides. So he was Arty or was this in 60s. Compare his with the man behind with the small case. He is holding a cigarette but that's not unusual.
Their shirts/jackets look rather like what used to be called bomber jackets - zip front, elasticised wristbands - after the style of jackets air force pilots wore.
His hair is not really long Bryan - that bit sticking out the back is actually part of someone else's head.
The hairstyles of both women visible in the picture is definitely 30's, and she was born in 1905, so would be 45 to 55 in the 50's/60s.
Nick my mum and our next door neighbour both had hairstyles like the ladies in the picture, including Alice, up to late 1950s. I wouldn't call it a '30s style' at all.
Alice does look to be only in her 20s in the picture, though older than in the second one you posted.
She looks like a happy serene person!
Dawn M.
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Without knowing anything about the subjects in this photo, I would have dated it as in the 50's. During the 30's men tended to wear hats and ties, even at the seaside. The man behind the couple looks just like my dad did in 50's; open neck shirt, sports jacket . Ladies also wore hats during the 30's, but not one of the other people in the photo is wearing a hat. When I was a kid, we used to call that style of jacket "windjammers".
My immediate thought when I saw the photo was that the couple were involved in Morris dancing, judging by the shoes (hers seem to have bows on the front and are his pointed?).
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Billyblue is right about the hair belonging to the other man behind who I'd not noticed before. Two men together on holiday - must be Brighton.
Alice is missing something from her right hand - a handbag. My wife has great difficulty going anywhere without hers.
Bryan
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My first thought was Morris dancers and I haven't had a second one yet!
Liz
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Morris dancing in shorts? Also, it's hard to find pictures of Morris dancers who aren't wearing white shirts.
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Billyblue is right about the hair belonging to the other man behind who I'd not noticed before. Two men together on holiday - must be Brighton.
Alice is missing something from her right hand - a handbag. My wife has great difficulty going anywhere without hers.
Bryan
I think they must have been on holiday with another couple, Bryan. Someone else must have taken the photo.
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I think they must have been on holiday with another couple, Bryan. Someone else must have taken the photo.
Right up until the 60s, there were street photographers who took snaps of holidaymakers and the following day the photos were on display in the photographers shop window. If you wanted the photo, you just went in and bought it.
I had another thought (!) they do look quite scoutlike and I wonder if they were members of the Woodcraft Folk. There is an early picture of a costume (they don't call it a uniform) here; http://heritage.woodcraft.org.uk/page.php?fhref=fh_026_11&page=001
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I read somewhere on the internet that the keep-fit craze was sweeping Europe in the 1930's, and long socks with a Scottish pattern were all the rage, especially in America. Maybe they were just keeping up with fashion ?
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Could it be that they were leaders in the Boys Brigade or Girls Brigade.
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I think alpine's idea of woodcraft folk is getting warmer. (I've never heard of them before - the clothes in the image look similar). I think the "no hat", "no handbag" and shorts are all unusual things about Alice.
Could it be that they were leaders in the Boys Brigade or Girls Brigade.
... but wouldn't there be a male and female version of any uniform? ....
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When did full length zips become common?
It wouldnt be the Civil Defence would it? because they did wear black uniforms.
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Trouble is, with this being a black and white photo, we can't be sure if the clothes are black, dark blue, grey .... :-\
Perhaps there are other components to the uniform which they are not wearing eg, badges, neckties, epaulettes ....
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I agree Alice is carrying a teddy bear or some other soft toy - perhaps won in an amusement arcade
The outfits definitely look like some sort of 'uniform', perhaps a club?
Linda
Added - and I think they're shirts rather than jackets. Nothing showing underneath at neckline and both are tucked in at the waist
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One thing they're categorically not involved in (at least in this picture) is any form of Morris dance. I grew up with that tradition but, being a girl, wasn't eligible to take part. The Morris men I knew would have forty fits if anyone turned up in the wrong kit, and believe me, this kit is sooooooooooo wrong!!! :o :o :o
That's me off to sleep now then.
Carol
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Well, it may not be a uniform. What I can't understand about this picture is that I can't find any trace of a clothing style like that from the 1930's, and if these were 'one-off' garments that they'd had made, I think it would have stirred up a little more attention ? Nobody seems to be all that concerned.
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Do you know the occupations of your relative and her husband?
The tops look very military, I wonder if they were Government surplus, bought for camping enthusiasts.
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I'm afraid I know nothing at all about them. I got the photos from a cousin that I made contact with for the first time recently when there was an inheritance issue. I know when and where she was born. Her marriage details were worked out through BMD records.
I never met her. She died in Stevenage, Herts, in 1980. I don't know where she lived between 1927 and 1980, and I have not been able to trace her husband's death, because John Page is a very common name.
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I think they maybe dressed for cycling judging by the shoes, smaller and softer than walking shoes so they could fit into the clip things on pedals to stop your feet from slipping off (sorry can't remember what they are called).
If they belonged to a cycle club and rode a tandem bike then maybe that's why they are dressed the same.
Jean
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My Grandad was a member of a cycling club in the 1930s, he used to cycle all over the country, including probably trips to the seaside! Those style of shorts and socks were definitely worn by cycle clubs during that time, I haven't seen the jackets before though!
I have found a picture of him with his bike for you to compare. :)
millerina
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Yes, the shorts were very similar, and cycling was very popular in those days. I'll have to try to get in touch with the distant cousins who gave me copies of the photos, but only one of them is likely to know, and she is a very old lady whose memory isn't very good.
Thank you :)
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Here are some more Cyclists ,my dad and his mates about 1935. picture a bit blurry sorry.
Big Al
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ukulele player
Sylvia
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The lady's shorts are very narrow round the hem. Given that there was no stretchy material then, I think they would have been rather uncomfortable to cycle in! The material does look like corduroy.
Salvia
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The Cycling shoes my dad and his mates are wearing look very similar to the ones the man and woman are wearing in the original picture posted.
Big Al
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The lady's shorts are very narrow round the hem. Given that there was no stretchy material then, I think they would have been rather uncomfortable to cycle in! The material does look like corduroy.
Salvia
I thought that as well.
I still feel that Alice might be wearing chap's clothes (maybe she was a feminist ;)) and I'm sure there would have been an alternative female cycling outfit.
I think the reason they are tight around her legs is that they are men's shorts and Alice has a ladylike shape around the bottom and legs, so the shorts are tight on her.
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Well, it may not be a uniform. What I can't understand about this picture is that I can't find any trace of a clothing style like that from the 1930's, and if these were 'one-off' garments that they'd had made, I think it would have stirred up a little more attention ? Nobody seems to be all that concerned.
I feel that the photo is later than the 1930s. What year did long zips get introduced into domestic clothing?
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I have to agree with others that this is an early 50s (late 40s absolute earliest) photo. Are there any other options for who these people might be? I would say that it could not be a man born late 1890s and woman born 1905.
Nick
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I have to agree with others that this is an early 50s (late 40s absolute earliest) photo. Are there any other options for who these people might be? I would say that it could not be a man born late 1890s and woman born 1905.
Nick
But if Nick is correct and this is Alice, which it must be as he has posted another photo of her, it cannot have been taken in the 50's. Unless Alice has a similar looking sister or cousin ... ;)
It is difficult to judge the era with men's clothes and the guy in the mid ground could have been snapped yesterday looking at what he's wearing - it's fairly timeless. I really can't see the women in the background clearly enough to make a judgement on their clothes.
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Apparently the zipper has been around in various forms since 1851 but was promoted in a sales campaign for children's clothing in the 1930's.
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I think they must have been on holiday with another couple, Bryan. Someone else must have taken the photo.
Right up until the 60s, there were street photographers who took snaps of holidaymakers and the following day the photos were on display in the photographers shop window. If you wanted the photo, you just went in and bought it.
Yes, I agree, a street photographer ... if they had been photographed by a friend, they would have stopped walking while it was taken.
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I have to agree with others that this is an early 50s (late 40s absolute earliest) photo. Are there any other options for who these people might be? I would say that it could not be a man born late 1890s and woman born 1905.
Nick
Well, unless the people who sent it to me had completely mis-identified the people in the photos, then I'm pretty sure that the woman was my aunt, who was born in 1905. My cousins also knew the woman's nickname (Dolly) that the family always knew her by. Since they never had any children, it's quite possible that the photo was taken in the late 1930's, but I don't think it would be older than that.
Thanks for all the cycling photos - they certainly do fit with what we're seeing in the photo I posted :)
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Wonder if the zip up jackets came from America? They were ahead of us in the late 40's early 50's
Jean