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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: James - Cornwall on Tuesday 08 February 11 23:52 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out more about the family of Ada Roper Smith born 1884 in Chesterfield. She was the daughter of George Roper Smith & his wife Mary. From censuses, I have discovered that Ada's siblings were :
John Roper Smith b 1865 Horsley Woodhouse, Derbyshire (later married an Ada)
Arthur Roper Smith b 1868 Chesterfield
George Roper Smith b 1872 Chesterfield
William Roper Smith b 1875 Chesterfield
Harriet Roper Smith b 1876 Chesterfield
James Roper Smith b 1879 Chesterfield
Ethel M. F Roper Smith b 1881 Chesterfield
and Ada Roper Smith, herself was b 1884 Chesterfield.
It appears that the family did not always have the 'Roper' name in use, and I have found a birth index entry for Ethel M. F. Smith with no mention of the Roper name at all.
I would be interested in finding out about the families of Ada's siblings, or of any of her ancestors. So far her mother's maiden name has evaded my searches _ I know that she, Mary, was born in Horsley Woodhouse, Derbyshire c. 1840 , whilst her husband, George was born in Castle Donington, Leicestershire,c. 1842.
I would also be thrilled to hear from anyone descended from any of Ada's siblings.
Thanks.
James
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Hi James,
Sorry if you already have this but it seems that George often simply went by the name Roper:
1881 census (with wife Susannah)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=2830020
RG11/3430 109 11
1871 : RG10/3609 81 7
In 1861, I wonder if hes enumerated twice, once as Roper with parents Henry and Ann, and once as Smith living on his own. In 1851, I can only see one candidate, as Roper (possible 'Poper') : HO107/2140 119 25
Now strangely, both wife Susannah and wife Mary were born ca. 1840 Horsley Woodhouse. Makes you wonder whether they're one and the same lady. Ada's birth cert would confirm her mother's name.
:)
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1901 census
Ada Roper Smith
17
birth 1884
Daughter
Geo Roper Smith
Mary Roper Smith
Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
Geo Roper Smith 59
Mary Roper Smith 61
Ethel Roper Smith 20
Ada Roper Smith 17
Rose Scott 22
sylvia
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death Ada Roper Smith spinster 23 Aug 1934 23 May 1934Derbyshire, England
83.4 left to basil smith minor
sylvia
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In 1891....going by Smith surname and with wife Mary
George R Smith 49
Mary Smith 51
Arthur Smith 23
George H Smith 19
Harriett Smith 15
William Smith 16
James Smith 12
Ethel M F Smith 10
Ada Smith 7
John Smith 26
Ada Smith 29
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Hello,
Marriage on IGI:-
11th September 1864 St. Alkmund Derby Batch Number M055376
Susannah Fletcher aged 24 Father William Fletcher
to
George Roper aged 23 Father John Roper
Spendlove
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In 1861, George Smith, born 1842, single, tanner, living in Horsley before his marriage.
Right place, right time ......Ref:RG9/2508/13 p 19
Also, from www.familysearch.org :-
George Smith Roper bapt 6 May 1842, Castle Donnington, Leicester
son of Hannah Roper
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Wow! Thanks for all the information and ideas - certainly given me some interesting leads to follow up.
Scriv2, looking at the baptism entry that you found, I wonder if George Smith Roper was illegitimate, as no mention of a father's name - and as in many such cases, the Smith would probably suggest the father's surname. Using the information you provided, i have just found a marriage index entry : A Hannah Roper married a John Smith in 1842 (Dec quarter) - reg district Shardlow - which i believe is in the right part of the country. Maybe after the marriage, the names were switched to become George Roper Smith, as opposed to George Smith Roper. Any thoughts anyone?
James
PS thanks again for all your help
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Yes, I think looks like the marriage followed later in the year after George's birth, which explains the varying arrangement of the surnames as life goes on, especially if George - and indeed the rest of the family - might not have been aware of the details!
So now, how can we explain Susannah and Mary??
Barbara :)
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Hi Barbara !
I suppose there's a chance that Susannah could have died, and that Mary was his second wife
We shall have to delve a little deeper.
James
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OK, so my initial Roper 1851 find was wrong (sorry!), and this is the boy in 1851:
1851
HO107/2140 110 7
Castle Donnington, Leicestershire
Clap-Gun Street
John Smith, head, 31, Boatman
Hannah, wife, 27, Lace Embroiderer
George, son, 9, scholar
Lucy, dau, 7, scholar
James, son, 2, scholar
All born C Donington
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Hey folks, look at this....
Dec qtr 1841
ROPER George Shardlow 19 497
ROPER George Shardlow 19 500
This is getting exciting...
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Deaths Sep qtr 1914
Roper Susannah 74 Chesterfield 7b 754
If this is her, it would indicate that Susannah = Mary.
I feel that it is likely as there would be too much of a coincidence of date and place of birth to be exactly the same for a second wife and no death of Susannah is showing up.
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This is indeed getting excited .... we have definitely pinned down George , and yes, looking highly possible that Susannah & Mary could be one and the same, especially with that death record in Chesterfield! thank you so much for your continued help everyone .
James
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Two possible deaths for George:-
Deaths Dec qtr 1918
George Roper age 77 Chesterfield 7b 1722
Sep qtr 1934
George Roper age 91 Chesterfield 7b 615
The first one seems to be best fit, but you must decide!
Should mean George and Susannah would appear in the 1911 census of course..another lead for you.
Just to make it interesting, there is actually a death of a George Smith too!!
Deaths Mar qtr 1918
George Smith age 77 Chesterfield 7b 909
Best wishes,
Barbara
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What a coincidence that a George Smith & a George Roper both died in the same year, at the same age - will be interesting to find out which is the George I am looking for - my gut feeling is that it could turn out to be George Smith! We shall see!!
I wish I lived a little closer, so that i could come and explore the graveyards of Chesterfield - they might p0rove useful! perhaps I'll post a request to see if anyone in the area might have time to have a look around for me.
James
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Hi James,
I know this is an old post but hopefully you will pick it up at some point. My great-great grandfather was George Roper-Smith who you mentioned in one of your earlier threads. I am not sure of your connection to the family but I have been reasearching the family and would be interested to know if you go anywhere with this.
Thanks
Zoe
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Zoe !
How exciting to hear from you ... I have been helping my best friend with his family tree ... he is descended from George Roper-Smith's daughter Ada - which of his children are you descended from?
James
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Hi James,
Wasn't sure you would pick this up. I am descended from George Roper-Smith and then his son George Henry Roper Smith. As you know the Roper got dropped and some my great grandfather born of George Henry was Sydney Smith.
Would be good to know if you found anything else out.
Zoe
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Thanks for your prompt reply!
My friend is the Great Great grandson of Ada Smith - the sister of your Great Grandfather. Living down in Cornwall we havent found it easy to trace the Chesterfield branch, and this website has been a Godsend. I'd happily send you all of our research to date.
James
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I have been researching via ancestry. I just stumbled across this site due to your post as I just did a google search on George Roper Smith. I am currently struggling to go back beyond John Smith and Hannah Roper though. What I have found so far though has been really interesting though - it's easy to get carried away with this.
I am regularly in Chesterfield as that is where my family are and am happy to look into any leads that you haven't been able to follow based in Cornwall and share this with you.
Zoe
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Zoe ... you are a star ... I would be very happy to share our research with you- feel free to private message me with your e mail address.
James
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Hi James, I am the great-grandaughter of Arthur Roper Smith, and have been reseaching the Roper-Smith/Smith Roper family for a while now. I have got about as far back as you. Apart from a 2nd cousin I have met no one else descended from this family, but knew there had to be others from the amount of siblings that Arthur had. PM me if you are interested I am still relatively close to Chesterfield and have lots of social history of the area as well as family tree :)
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Just been and had a look in my folder Here are George and Mary on the 1911 census
George Roper Smith Hd 69 Labourer Iron Foundry Leics Castle Donnington
Mary R Smith wf 71 Derbys Horsley Woodhouse
Ethel M R Smith dau 29 Derby Chesterfield
Basil W B Smith grandson 7 Derby Chestefield
John Bamford boarder 42 Iron foundry Lab Lancs
Henry Rothwell boarded 27 Iron foundry Lab Derbys
George states his marriage has lasted 47 years and he has had ten children seven of whom are still living.
This proves that Susannah/Mary are one and the same. I am going to Chesterfield tomorrow and will see if there are any obituaries in the Derbyshire Times archives that will throw further light on this. :)
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I now have more information about the deaths of George and Susannah!
Liz :)
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Harriett Roper is my x2 great grandmother, her sister was Hannah Roper the mother of George Roper Smith
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Do you possibly have any further info on Hannah, would appreciate that very much, I calculated her age from the census, have nothing on her parents and ancestors. Thank you for your help.
Liz TJ
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Hannah was baptised on 15 Jul 1823 in Castle Donington Leicestershire Jacob ( sometimes called John) and Susannah were her parents both of Castle Donington. Jacob like Hannah's husband was a Boatman.........
Not sure what you know about the area........
Castle Donington is a market-town and a parish which sits on the south side of the River Trent, which seperates it from Derbyshire. The parish lies 9 miles south-east from Derby, 9.5 miles north-east of Ashby-de-la-Zouch, 13 miles south-west of Nottingham and 123 miles north of London. The parish is just north-west of the East Midlands Airport. The parish covers about 3,425 acres these days.
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Thanks for that, I knew John was a boatman, and Hannah was a (?) lace (?)
embroiderer from one of the census's, can it be in the genes? My grandma and mum were brilliant at embroidery, I have two tablecloths, one from each of them. My gran was Hannahs g grandaughter
I know the Castle Donnington area a bit, I was brought up in Chesterfield and now live in Nottinghamshire, used to go through Castle Donnington before they built the M42.
Thanks again.
Liz TJ
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Lace embroidery was done in that area by the 'outworkers' for the nottingham Lace industry and the boatman would carry the products.
My mother always claimed I got my skills from 'her side' ( they were very good) it was only after I researched my dad's side did I find out, textile work there too and fine highly prized and expensive work was a profession to them, from lace embrodiery to glove makers and taylors
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Must see if I can follow John and Hannah through the census I think I only have the 1851 where they are living on Clap Gun St Castle Donington with children George, Lucy and James. What a wonderfully weird address!
Liz
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Hi all, still working on this family - think this is Maud Roper, born c 1869
Free BMD Maud Roper death Chesterfield Sept 1/4 1883.
Register of Chesterfield and Tapton burials - Maud Roper, age 14, TANNERS CHILD, address Lordsmill Street buried July 25th 1883, register number 5793
Still looking for the other two deaths. In 1911 census George states his marriage had lasted 47 years and he had ten children, seven were still alive in 1911. Was he, I wonder, counting son John, who, I think died in March 1/4, 1897 age 33. Couldn't find him on 1901 but found Ada Smith age 40 born Gainsborough, living at Ecclesall Bierlow. (On 1891 John is married to Ada)
Finally Family Search has the marriage of Ethel Mary Roper to Jeremiah Hebblethwaite at St Mary's Church 23 Dec 1911, at St Mary's Chesterfield. Ethel's father is George Roper. (Incidentally FreeBMD has the births of three Hebblethwaite children, registered Chesterfield, mother's maiden name Smith) Ain't it fun this family history lark!!!!
Liz TJ
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Fun and very addictive!
You have been busy ;D
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I leave it totally for a few weeks and then when I look at it again it's "fresh eyes". Still not 100% convinced by the St Alkmund marriage for George (His father was Smith, not Roper) so I've sent for Arthur's birth certificate which hopefully will have his mother's maiden name, but with this family who knows!
Liz TJ :D
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Me too and it also often helps me write it down on here as you really do look to see and check what proof you have, our own ancestors are precious while others look at things more objectively.
With this line I have found many twists and turns and with the Roper/Smith it seems some children used the Roper in their name while others didn't
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Just received Arthur's birth certificate - yes mum is definitely Susannah Fletcher and Arthur's name is registered as Roper, but definitely Arthur Roper Smith on his marriage to Emma Reddish as I have that certificate too. No major alterations to family tree.
Wonder if John and Hannah were going by the name Roper then and that's why I can't find them in the 1861 census - just a thought ;D
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It seems this 'crew' liked to swop and change names around, I can't find John and Hannah after 1851
George was single, a tanner, living in Horsley RG9/2508/13 p 19 which is where Susannah( Mary) Fletcher was born
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1861 Susannah Fletcher is 22yrs a Boarder in Ilkeston, Nottinghamshire (they didn't marry until 1864)
1871( yes Roper!) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VBF6-HVQ
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.................and Roper again 1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQS9-FRX
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Wow, you've been busy!!!
We'll be trying to work around the Julian calendar next.
Well done
Liz
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Basil Winter B Smith aged 7 years( b. 1904) was staying with his grandparents George and Susannah in the 1911, do you know who his parents were?
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Just checked Free BMD, there seven Hannahs and ten Johns all deaths registered at Shardlow, Mar 1851 to Dec 1861, don't have ages for any of them, can't all be Castle Donnington but we'd only need one of each...... ::) :-\
Perhaps we can find Lucy George or James....
Liz
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Illegitimate son of Ada, if you read back to the beginning of the post James - Cornwall is helping his friend who is descended from Basil
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Illegitimate son of Ada, if you read back to the beginning of the post James - Cornwall is helping his friend who is descended from Basil
Thanks
Lucy, well Lucy was 7yrs old in the 1851 census so born 1844
George was Bap 6 May 1842 Castle Donington
James was 2yrs old in the 1851, so born 1849
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...or in the 1861 Lucy is staying with her Roper Grandparents aged 18yrs, so b 1843, I also have in notes that mary b 1859 is also in the household
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Is that Jacob and Susannah?
Wonder if John and Hannah had died?
Can you send me the reference or details of census. pm me if you like.
Thanks
Liz
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Right back at my FH computer now
Susannah Roper ( Palfreman) 1851 67yrs Knitter widow Shadlow HO107 piece 2140 folio 110 page 6 in 1861 I have her in Castle Donington (no ref without searching through my note books) also with her Lucy and Mary and she died in 1867 aged 67yrs
Jacob sometimes written as John died in 1842 age 61yrs
I can't find John Smith or Hannah Roper at all in census after the 1851 census, but they had William, Frances and Mary after 1851.
This particular family is very difficult to research I still can't get my head around them, lots of them seem to swop and use different names........... must have been tax invaders ::) even evaders ;D
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From FamilySearch I have:-
Lucy bapt 25th Oct 1843, parents John and Hannah
Mary bapt 19th April 1854, died 23 March 1855 same parents
Betsy bapt 6th Jan 1859 same parents
Timothy James bapt 22June 1849 same parents
all at Castle Donnington. I think it's reasonable to assume these are all the same family. George of course was christened Roper. Wonder if the Church of Latter Day Saints still have the microfiches that you can check, get the end of this month over and I shall give them a ring, worth getting births marriages and deaths if they have them, I suppose boatman could be a precarious occupation at any time.
Liz
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So that means there was another Mary born as 2yrs old Mary is in Castle Donnington, Leicester with Susannah Roper nee Palfreman (grandparent) in 1861
The addition of the name Timothy ( James in 1851 census) may be why I can't find him after 1851
So it looks like they had 8 children and the last two very close together and likely means we are looking for a death of mother Hannah 1860 aged approx 36yrs.
John Smith is not exactly an easy name to research ( I have 6 John Smith's all from different lines and different areas of the country, all are difficult) all I can say is at least 'this one' is not 'mine' as in direct line, but because I am nosey I like to research any branch lines I can ::)
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James in 1861 ? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M76X-Q2R
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James in 1911 ? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7R1-HG7
On the copy of the census he is written as Edward James. married to Edith for 33 years who was born in Repton Derbyshire and they had 9 children
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...........or more likely James a widower living in Sawley, Derbyshire claims he was born in Sawley too aged 62 in 1911
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James in 1861? Strangely enough I had spotted this and was going to check the whole page on Ancestry next time I'm at the Library - 1911 free on Ancestry at the moment so I'll have a look at the other two in a few minutes and get back
Liz
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Well what do you think?
1861
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VB6R-L26
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M76X-SZR
1871
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VB6R-L26
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and..........
1881
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ95-WY1
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Looks as if you've hit the nail on the head with those three for Hannah! Especially if Francess Roper age 13 and Francis Truman age 24 are one and the same.
Think the widower is more likely for James - There is a James Smith and a James Edwards Smith registered June 1/4 1849 at Shardlow. (FreeBMD) James Edward Smith marries Edith Mary Hewgill June 1/4 1878, not convinced by that one at the moment. Wonder if that ones on Family Search to get father's names
Looks as if we've taken over the original listing! Wonder if the others are following us
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I agree with you James the 62yrs old widow is far more likely, just need to find him in earlier census.
I can't find Hannah married or dead after 1881 as a Roper or a Smith , there is a Hannah Roper marrying in I think 1884, but I think that may be Mary her daughter, as she is down as Mary Hannah, who marries William Earl.
Now I am concerned that some of the children of Hannah Roper's are baptised only showing her as a parent and not John too, and that includes George Smith Roper, as his name is written like that, it 'suggests' pre marriage, or could they just not agree on what name they would use, or was their marriage dysfunctional...or is there another Hannah Roper born around the same time who had those children.......so without primary records it would be difficult to decide.
I do hope the others are following, if it is 'their' family then their input would be great, as it is always nice when you are researching the same family lines to bounce off each other, as well as keep 'double check' on each others finds ;D
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I agree. I think we both tried to post at the same time and lost mine.
FreeBMD has FANNY Roper and Thomas Truman marriage Radford Sep 1/4 1877 - Just in time to have a three year old for the census. Family Search has nothing for Edward James/Edith marriage. If I can figure how to post it I have a photo of Arthur.
Liz
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I was wondering how you made a connection to Frances Truman so quickly, so looked for her, then realised Hannah Roper is the visitor in the house duhhhhhhhhhhhhh::) All I can say is it is late ;D
That would be wonderful to see a photo of Arthur, you just click 'attachment and other options' below and attach directly
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I'll try again tomorrow, says there is already a file with same name, brain getting boggled now. Night Night
Liz
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Think I'm about to undo last night's work. Checked 1861 Hannah Roper census
Hannah - head
Zadok - son 10
Frances - daughter 4
Mary - daughter 2
address St Anne Lane
Zadok Roper on free BMD June 1/4 1851
Zadok Roper on family search Bapt 11 May 1851 son of Timothy and Hannah
Back to the drawing board
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Ummmmmmmm
Jacob and Susannah had a Timothy b 1816, however that would have been Hannah's brother, also another brother Henry who married Ann Mahollam, one of their children was Timothy b 1844 and
Jacob had a brother Henry he married Sarah Pawfreman.
So what is the age of Timothy on the census ( as in the Timothy and Hannah family)? I suspect that is the b1844( cousin of 'our' Hannah)
Timothy Roper married Hannah Raybould 2Q 1866 in Walsall
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Think I'm about to undo last night's work. Checked 1861 Hannah Roper census
Hannah - head
Zadok - son 10
Frances - daughter 4
Mary - daughter 2
address St Anne Lane
Zadok Roper on free BMD June 1/4 1851
Zadok Roper on family search Bapt 11 May 1851 son of Timothy and Hannah
Back to the drawing board
Your correct :o I think Tim married Hannah Glover in 1846, so both Hannah Roper and Hannah Glover ( later Roper) are about the same age and both born in Castle Donington.
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I think the answer lies in the primary records here. I will ring the local Mormon church tomorrow evening and speak to the man in charge there. The lady I spoke to today couldn't help. Hopefully they still do the film/michofiches that I researched so painstakingly before when I needed out of the area help. Don't fancy the trip to Leicester Archives!
Pity I'm not closer.
Liz
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The hours I have spent in Wigston at the records office...if only I had known then, although the Loughboro' records office should have them too.
There is not a chance of me going, it is likley I will not be making that long trip for another year.
http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/landingpage/collection/p15407coll9 in the mean time I am searching these. Many of those being research seem to be boatmen, so not sure if they were owner/employees so that might depend of if any are in them and many seem to disappear around 1851/61, now they are either dying young or working elsewhere, so I need to do some research on boatmen in that area
I did a little bit of looking at Harriett's line ( Hannah's sister) and going back I noticed Smith marries into the Dakin line ( Harriet married William Dakin) so it made me wonder if it was the same 'Smith' family
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http://homepages.which.net/~shardlow.heritage/shwpcarri.htm
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I did a little bit of looking at Harriett's line ( Hannah's sister) and going back I noticed Smith marries into the Dakin line ( Harriet married William Dakin) so it made me wonder if it was the same 'Smith' family
Nooooooooo!
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I did a little bit of looking at Harriett's line ( Hannah's sister) and going back I noticed Smith marries into the Dakin line ( Harriet married William Dakin) so it made me wonder if it was the same 'Smith' family
[/quote
Noooooo!
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Seriously, I think this is the only way to sort these out, start at say, 1800 and see if I can find Jacob/Susannah marriage, subsequent children baptisms, these should at the very least have dad and mums names, maybe even a few burials along the way, at least the copies if I can get them will be delivered to a place about four miles from where I live. Should hopefully find Jacobs burial and find out if John died young-ish. As he is given as Betsey's father on Family Search in 1859 (her birth seems to be registered March 1/4 1858) he must have been alive then.
Can you confirm we both have the same Susanna on 1851 I have Susanna, widow age 67. son John age 33 and brother-in-law John age 76 all born Castle Donington and living at 27 Clap Gun St.
The Mary on 1861 must be her granddaughter from another family.
The only death I can find remotely in the area is a registration for Dudley in the 1860's. We shall probably never find this one.
Liz
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:-[Just looked back at previous and you told me Susanna died 1867 duh
Liz
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Will have to go to my 'FH computer' and PM you the info I have which may make it easier for you to look/check specific dates.
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Thanks I will watch for your PM
Liz
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Well Liz you have had a month now since I PM'd you with lots of details, names/dates it would be nice to hear from you
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Hi, sorry I haven't been in touch, still trying to get in touch with local Mormon Church, they are not open as often as they used to be and I keep missing the times
Just put a reminder and the number into my mobile so should contact them Wednesday night. Once contacted it's usually about a week before the fiche arrives.
Sorry again. will contact you as soon as I have some more data.
Wish we had something like lincstothepast here, I have used that site quite a bit.
Doesn't look like the others are following now.
Liz
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Hi Liz
For some reason I didn't get the update you had answered.
Yes it would be nice to have them online like 'Lincs' ......even 'East Midlands' website don't have coverage of Castle Don/Sawley/Long Eaton/Shardlow areas, the transcriptions for Castle Donington General Baptist Births shows no one we need and even on 'familytimeline' on the Leicestershire or Derbyshire Documents page there is nothing
Looking forward to hearing from you
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Might be a bit longer than a week, lifted something awkwardly earlier on and hurt my back. Already printed yr pm so that what I shall take with me. Assume it's the C of E church in Castle Donnington.
Liz
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Oh Liz poor you back pain is not good.
Not at my computer right now to see if I have the name of the church in my notes, but will look and PM you if I find it. think it is the Anglican parish church Saint Edward King & Martyr as the RC wasn't built until 1935 and there was a Baptists' chapel late 1700s and the others (Methodists, Independents and Quakers) each had a chapel there by 1849.
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Just seen this as one Roper line goes back to Bacon, it is worth reading
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664846.0
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Thanks for that one, I have made a note.
Liz