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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: ann31 on Tuesday 01 February 11 15:56 GMT (UK)
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can anyone help i'm looking for the marriage of James Haswell and Isabella Borthwick not sure of the date around 1841 im guessing. cant find it anywhere ???
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Have you found them in any census's to determine their ages and where they were born as that would help trace a marriage if there was one.
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yes ive got them in the 1851 census living in chapel street both aged 28 and i have james in the 1841 census but i dont know which borthwicks isabella came from ive found a few different familys but untill i know her parents names im stuck i contacted the records office in berwick upon tweed and they couldnt find any record of there marriage i know there were irregular marriages but i wouldnt know where to start
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I think that Isabella Borthwick is the daughter of James Borthwick and Elizabeth Gordon. There are numerous family trees on Ancestry which show them with at least 12 children. Although both the mothers of James and Elizabeth are named Isabella there are no Isabellas appearing in the list of children. There is however a gap between John in 1820 and Thomas in 1824 which Isabella could fit into.
I also can't find a marriage for James Haswell and Isabella
regards
April
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Hi April
This could be a possibility Ive looked at James and Elizabeth on ancestry and the names of the children are very much the same as James and Isabella's children they were Elizabeth1842 William 1844 James 1846 john 1849 David 1851 Thomas 1854 Johnstone Borthwick Haswell 1855d 1856 Roseanna 1859 d1872 James Jordan Haswell 1859 Isabella 1861 Jane 1863 there could be others but Ive not come across them yet !!,. I found James in the 1891 census but his wife was named Elizabeth?? James died in 1896, i found Isabella in 1901 census in the workhouse hospital were she died could Isabella and Elizabeth be one and the same !!! .i think I'm going to have to delve into these irregular marriages although i dont have a clue how but I'm sure someone out there will be able to help . Thankyou so much for your help.
Regards Ann
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hi Ann :)
are these english records ?
i.e. northumberland not berwickshire scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed
ev
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Hi Ev
Ive looked on ancestry at both English and Scottish census and found some of James and Isabella Haswells children on familysearch.org
Ann :)
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Hi Ann31,
Could you be more specific where these marriages took place and where childre were born?
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Hi Beckey
All the information that i have is that they were born in Berwick Upon Tweed , on the census it just says Berwick Upon Tweed i think one of them said ecclesiastical district of Holy Trinity and on the familysearch the children's christenings just said Berwick Upon Tweed i don't have any information about the marriages . I cant find any marriage records for James and Isabella their first child was born in 1842 so their marriage year would be just a guess
Ann :)
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Hi ann31,
I see what you mean, getting birth certs. wouldn't do you any good there is not enough information on the English ones.
My wife has Borthwick's in her tree but they are all in Midlothian and can't see a connection anywhere and there isn't any Haswell's at all. I see that there was a Isabella died 1901 Berwick, but no James.
Looks like you will have to keep trying and hope you get lucky.
Have you put your request on the Northumberland site?
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Hi Beckey
Thankyou for trying to help i will put a post on the northumberland site
Ann :)
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They may have been married in 1841 as there is a 15 year old Isa Haswell in the same household as 15 yr old Jas Haswell. They both would have been 18 in 1841 so ages would have been rounded down to 15.
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Hi ann31,
This is a suggestion if you haven't tried already, my wife says that there is those families in Berwick.
Try the Berwick Advertiser www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk we did and found connections., it also goes on a few others in the Borders
It gets put on the Readers Page.Letters: advertiserletters[at]tweedalepress.co.uk (replace [at] with @)
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Hi beckey
Thanks for that im new to this and im very grateful for your help just when i think im getting somewhere i loose the plot ???
ann :)
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Hi April
i know that is my James in the 1841 census i just presumed Isa was his sister as you will gather I'm new to all this why would you round down the ages? would you know how to find an irregular marriage ? i think that is the next step (if they bothered to get married at all :o )
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Here is an explanation for the rounding down in the 1841 censuses:
http://durhamrecordsonline.com/updates/2010/09/17/added-explanation-of-1841-census-age-rounding/
April
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Hi April
Thanks for that i couldn't for the life of me understand why James haswell was 15 in1841 and 28 ten years later. i only joined a few days ago and Ive learnt so much you never know i might get the hang of this ancestry searching :) thankyou
Ann :)
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Hi Ann,
Holy Trinity Church, known to my wife as the Parish Church, was back of Wallace Green.
Do you know of "GenesReunited"? have found 2 people looking for the family you quoted and have sent messages to both of them, see what happens.
Barry
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Hi Beckey
thanks ill get on to it i know one of the people on Genes Reunited is my 2nd cousin having as much luck as me i think!! but i will look at the other one my mum seems to think there is a link to Edinburgh but young Isabella 1861 was estranged from her family that's why we know so little about them
Ann :)
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Hi Ann,
Have had a response from Barbara Pestell and explained what is required will wait response.
Did you find them on the "Familysearch" 1881 census as I can't.
Barry
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Hi Beckey
No i found them on ancestry i only found the christenings on familysearch i looked on Genes Reunited my dads a member researching his side and my 2nd cousin isn't one of the members researching ( she must have given up the ghost!) so this could be promising fingers crossed thanks again for your help
Ann
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hi Ann,
Response from Barbara Pestell,
In the 1851 census there is a Elizabeth Haswell, widow age 67, she is James's mother and his father was also a James.
James Haswell married Elizabeth Jordan 3/3/1803 at Berwick.
No marriage found for James and Isabella ( though she has looked as well),
thinks that Isabella is daughter of James Borthwick & Elizabeth Gordon.
1881 age 56 living Chapel St., also in 1891 at 21 Chapel St., as Elizabeth,
James died 4/4/1896 & Isabella 23/6/1901.
She would like to know where you fit in the family please.
Hope this gives you a better start.
Barry
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Hi Beckey
this sounds promising is Barbera a member of rootschat ?
my gg grandmother was Isabella Haswell b 1861 daughter of James and Isabella she married William Henry eccles from Sheffield as far as i know she married in Berwick Upon Tweed in 1883 and moved to Sheffield they had 3 children that i know of William ,George and Sabina my grandmother hope this helps
Ann :)
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Hi Ann,
Looking at the ages of them both in the census details they could have both been under age, with Elizabeth being born in about August 42.
The nearest place would have been at Lamberton Toll just over the border on the Eyemouth Road, favourite place for irregular marriages, but I don't know what kind of record there is there.
Barry.
Have made contact with Cherry Pearson and have e-mail, can only send by personel mail.
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Hi Beckey
Thankyou so much for your help Ive got further these last few days than i have in the past year and its all down to you and all the other roots chatters i wish i had found this site before now everyone is so helpful i think i will subscribe to Genes Reunited thanks again will let you know how i get on
Ann :)
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Hi Ann,
Sent you a personal message, can't send e-mail any other way.
Click on Beckey top left hand of message and it will open personal details where you can send a message, try it and there is one waiting, you should have got one to say there is a message waiting.
Barry
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Hi Beckey
did what you said cant find pm anywhere haven't got anything to say theres a message waiting
Ann :)
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No marriage found for James and Isabella ( though she has looked as well),
Its always possible that this couple never legally married :-\ it was more common than you would think, or maybe they married several years later, has anyone tried looking then ???
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Hi Patrish
Never thought of that will have a look around thankyou :)
Ann