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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: JVH on Monday 31 January 11 18:56 GMT (UK)
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I seem to have come to a dead end on finding Edward Palmer Smith, who appears as the deceased father of the groom on my maternal grandparents marriage certificate on 01 Dec 1919. He is shown as having been a bootmaker, and we were told he himself had a club foot, but that he "made hundreds walk" so we assume he was an orthopedic bootmaker. We were told our grandfather (Cyril Charles Greyson Smith) was born in Taunton, Somerset, so thought that was a reasonable place to search. Not a thing. Les de B even tried to find him in his book about Taunton, but there isn't even a single Smith mentioned, which is quite odd.
Is there anyone researching this Smith family who might have some insights?
Thanks, John Howard
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You haven't given any details of his birthyear but could this be his birth
Births September qtr 1892
Cyril Charles G Smith Pancras 1b 15
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Thanks, Carole, that looks very promising. I was beginning to get suspicious of the Taunton connection, so it looks like this is well worth pursuing! We have an approximate birth date for CCG of 1891, so that's a good match. Well done!
John
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Births December qtr 1860
Edward Palmer Smith Edmonton 3a 129
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Marriages December qtr 1903
Edward Palmer Smith Barnet 3a 551
to either Mary Ann Gibbon or Beatrice Emma Kemp
Probably a re-marriage
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The free 1911 index has an entry for Edward Palmer Smith aged 50 living in Christchurch Hants
Using only the index cross refers to a Mary Ann Smith aged 53 so he presumably married Mary Ann Gibbon
No other Smiths show up on that check
Cyril was born 25.7.1892 according to his death reg in Sussex in 1983
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Here's the 1903 marriage Carole found; make of it what you will!
Monkton Hadley Parish Church, Barnet
26th December 1903 after Banns
Edward Palmer SMITH 42 bachelor; engineer; living Bristol; father: William SMITH, surgeon
Mary Ann GIBBON 43 spinster; living Hadley Rd; father: Charles William GIBBON, clerk
Both signed the register
Witnesses: C W GIBBON; Osgood SMITH
KR
Maryam
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So where were they in 1901?
Added: ignore this; probably confusing things ::)
It may be there were two Edward P Smiths; the engineer one with the 1903 marriage can be found in earlier censuses, born c1861, Edmonton, with father William a medical practitioner, mother Elizabeth.
1901 Census
RG13 2429 43 2
47 Park Road, Gloucester
Edward P SMITH Head 33 commercial traveller; b Gloster (sic)
Annie Wife 30; b Stroud, Glo'shire
Cyril G P Son 6; b Gloster
Harold W P Son 3; b Gloster
Edith LEWIS Servt 16; general servant domestic; b Gloster
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Hi Maryam
Some similarities but the 1901 Cyril was born 1894/5 and is Cyril G P Smith
The one being researched is Cyril Charles Grayson Smith b 1892
The 1901 father was Edward Pedder Smith per freebmd marriages 1893
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Hi Carole
Yes, I got a bit confused there, as I couldn't find Cyril or Edward in the 1901 together that fitted well. Funny how Edward is a bachelor for the 1903 marriage ???
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Yes - I thought that too - particularly as I can't find him with a wife in 1891/1901 nor can I find Cyril in 1901
I think Cyril's birth cert is needed
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Well, a lot of activity. :D I had seen some of the Smiths you have mentioned, but didn't think Edward would fit with being an engineer, as his occupation on his son's marriage certificate is "bootmaker". Mind you, since he had a club foot himself, perhaps he put his engineering expertise to work on devising orthopedic appliances? A possibility I guess. Also my sister has told me what our grandmother (Cyril's wife) told her, which was that his mother was a drunk, and that his father (Edward) died of a broken heart when she left them. Also, Cyril left home at the age of 14, so about 1916, and he then enrolled in the Army in Aug of 1915 (as shown on his Medal Index Card).
Does any of this help?
I suspect that getting a copy of the birth certificate through the GRO will be the way to go.
John
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Sorry, got my math wrong, Cyril left home around 1906.
John
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Hi John :)
Well, I did look for an army record for Cyril, but the only one I found was for a Cyril Charles of Edmonton, who was the son of a Charles Smith, and he enrolled in Nov 1914, so not your one.
However, if the Edward/Mary Ann marriage is correct, then Osgood the witness appears to be Edward's brother:
1901 Census
RG13 165 62 6
87 Hanley Road, Islington
William SMITH Head 79 retired surgeon; b London Chelsea
Elizabeth Wife 76; b Middlesex Edmonton
Osgood Son 32; temporary civ draughtsman, (war office) ; b London Clerkenwell
KR
Maryam
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Hi
I suspect that getting a copy of the birth certificate through the GRO will be the way to goI
I honestly don't think we can progress further without it. There is no match for what we know of him on either the 1901 or 1911 censuses so we need his mothers name and maiden name plus his fathers occupation to help us out.
From the Medal Roll - he was Cyril Chas Greyson Smith Labour Corps 12th Co of London Regiment & Rifle Brigade Regimental Number: 360783
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Yes, that's him. I have a query in at the Great War forum for an interpretation of the "Action taken" field in his Medal Roll Index. I've also just put in an order for the birth certificate for Cyril Charles G Smith of 1892. It'll likely be at least couple of weeks before I get the certificate (one wonders why the GRO doesn't offer emailing a high-res image of the certificate at a slightly cheaper price, and faster too?).
I'm really looking forward to seeing if we've got our man!
John
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Keep this post open and when the cert arrives - post details from it so we can take it from there (hopefully)
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Found Edward Palmer Smith in 1901 - he is living with brother Percival and family in Tredegar, Sirhowy, Monmouthshire - single - aged 40 and no occupation shown although Percival is a Surgeon. Ref. RG13 - 4939 - 77 - 6.
Annette
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Hi Annette
This particular William P Smith has already been ruled out - see replies #6, 8 and 9 from Maryam and myself
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There's a possible here for Edward in the 1901, but in Wales:
1901 Census
RG13 4939 77 6
The Surgery, Tredegar, Monmouthshire
Percival SMITH Head 38 Surgeon b Edmonton Middx
Margaret A Wife 39 b Brecon G?
Margaret Dau 10 b Monmouthshire
William H Son b Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Dau 7mths b Monmouthshire
Henry W EATON F in Law 79 b Carmarthen
Edward P SMITH Bro 40 Single (no occupation stated) b Edmonton Middx
Plus 4 servants
Percival's occupation and pob seem fitting, as Edward's father was a surgeon.
Marriages:
June Qtr 1889 Bedwelty Vol 11a Page 141
On the same page: Percival SMITH, Margaret EATON
KR
Maryam
Added: posts crossed; no, I think this might be the right one!
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The 1919 marriage cert of Cyril Charles Greyson Smith shows his father as Edward Palmer Smith occ bootmaker
Cyril was born 1892 in Pancras and this is written above by JVH
Also my sister has told me what our grandmother (Cyril's wife) told her, which was that his mother was a drunk, and that his father (Edward) died of a broken heart when she left them.
The Edward Palmer Smith b 1860 Edmonton Essex was a bachelor when he married in 1903 and this status is confirmed by the 1901 census entry
On his 1903 marriage cert and the 1911 census - William Palmer Smith is an engineer - not a bootmaker
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Ok, apologies, getting carried away there; :-[ so the 1903 marriage is a red herring. If someone is looking for that particular Edward Palmer SMITH, then there's some info for them. I too look forward to the birth certificate info.
Definitely time for bed, before I start posting Joneses, Greens and other unrelated families..... ::)
Night night
KR
Maryam
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Believe I have found family in 1901 - in Taunton - but minus Edward.
1901 - Taunton Union Workhouse
Florence Smith Inmate 32 Marr. Looks like Machinist possibly but big cross
through it b. St. Johns Wood, Middx
Edwin M. Smith " 10 b. Battersea Park, London
Cecil C. Gray. Smith " 8 b. Hampstead, London
Arthur D. Smith " 3 b. Cardiff, Wales
1911 Free Index (still in Taunton) indicates that 'Arthur' should be Archie and birth reg's show an Archibald Dunster Smith b. Dec.1898 Cardiff. Cecil's birthplace shown as Hampstead but there wasn't a Cecil Smith reg'd in Hampstead Reg. District c.1892/3 and with the way the name is shown above it must surely be the right person. But where is Edward???
Annette
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Sorry - forgot to quote ref. RG13 - 2278 - 161 - 5.
Annette
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I'm on a roll. Found family 1891 and - his name is not Edward Palmer Smith but Edwin Palmer Smith.
1891 Census - 111 Battersea Park Road, Battersea, London
Edwin P. Smith 26 Shoemaker b. Taunton, Somerset
Florence E J Smith 23 b. St. Johns Wood, London
Edwin M. Smith 7 mos. b. Battersea, London
Ref. RG12 - 425 - 85 - 12
Edwin Palmer Smith, 25 Shoemaker, son of Edwin Smith, Shoemaker married Florence Elizabeth Jane Maskell, 21, dau. of William Lewis Maskell, House Decorator on 25/12/1889 Battersea Christ Church.
Witnesses: William Louis Maskell (both spellings of 2nd. name as written)
Georgina Peacock
Possible death for Edwin - Edwin P. Smith 1936 Taunton
Possible death for Florence - Florence E J Smith 1947 Taunton
Annette
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Wow, well done Annette! Now I'm wondering if Cyril had a grudge against his Dad eventually, maybe for straying (and driving his mother to drink?). And perhaps when he "left home at 14" he left to live with his mother. When he stated that his father was dead for his marriage certificate in 1919, perhaps as far as he was concerned, he was? Apparently Cyril himself was a bit of a philanderer, so it's tempting to say the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.
I was going to post a picture of Cyril, but the "Attach a photograph or image (or other options)..." link doesn't give me that option. Doesn't like Mozilla Firefox? Some sort of membership restriction?
Getting late here and I have an appointment tomorrow morning, but I'll be back noting all this down tomorrow afternoon. My sisters will just love this, especially my older one, who's getting very interested, and who has an encyclopedic memory of the past, including meeting and speaking with relatives back in England.
Thanks!
John
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Annette, that's brilliant!
John, some boards on this site (usually the child- or sub-boards) do not allow you to post attachments, so you haven't done anything wrong ;) .
KR
Maryam
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Very well done Annette - another mystery solved
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I've found Edwin Palmer Smith's family in the 1871 census for St. Mary Magdalene Parish, Tauton, Somerset.
RG10/2370/65 p 22.
Edwin Smith, Head, 36, Bootmaker
Charlotte Smith, Wife, 34, Straw bonnet maker
William H. Smith, Son, 16, Bootmaker (learner)
Ellen C. Smith, Daughter, 9, Scholar
Edwin P. Smith, Son, 6, Scholar................... "P" reported erroneously as an "I"
William Thorne, Lodger, 21, Shoemaker (journeyman)
...all born in Taunton Somerset
By comparing with the entry on Sched line 98 on page 21, Frederic Page, we can see how Edwin's "I" is actually a "P".
I'm not sure if I need any sort of copyright notice on this, as the info is originally from the National Archives, but when retrieved from ancestry.com there is no copyright notice, only a valid usage statement, so... I'll add the notice anyway.
John
"This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"
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Annette, does the 1911 census show that the family is still in the workhouse, or just still in Taunton? And is Cecil (Cyril) still with them? Apparently he claimed that he left home at 14, but the tale that his mum was the villain in the piece doesn't seem to be holding water, so I'm wondering what gives.
John
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Hi
1911 details are not permitted - copyright restrictions
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355486.0.html
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Darn! I thought someone might say that! :-\ I wish genealogy.com would hurry up and make the whole thing available. It rankles that I would have to pay another site when I'm already paying their subscription. The summary is really a dud. I may just have to bite the bullet and find a pay-per-use site for the whole thing, and make sure I have all my ducks in a row before I use it. Quack!
John
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Hi John
The Copyright Editor would have no choice but to remove any info that can only be obtained by subscription
We can post certain details that are available by using the free index but addresses are not one of them
The index should show Institution in the first column if they were in the WH - otherwise it will show Household
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Unfortunately the summary doesn't even show the first names, you get Mr. Smith or Mrs. Smith or Miss Smith, and a head count by gender. Without knowing their other names, or the names of other members of the family, you're done. Is there a site you could recommend who provide subscription or per-use access to the complete 1911 census?
The Edwin Smiths seem to have been using the name Edwin for father and one son since at least the early 1800's and shoemaking since the early 1840's. There seems to be a bit of a tangle with an 1802 Edwin Smith and an 1806 Edwin Smith, but once I get a bit of free time I should be able to work out who's who in the zoo. What better way to spend the day of a snowstorm here near Liverpool, Nova Scotia, than a bit of detective work?
I found an early picture of the Taunton Union Workhouse, with it's top-hatted "master" standing before it. Today it looks like the building has been turned into condos. What else? ;D
John
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Hi
The 1911 index is free to search and there are lots of suggestions on this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
You can either go to Findmypast or www.1911census.co.uk for the whole thing.
If you do get credits don't waste them on the transcription. Always go to the original image as you get much more information.
Regards
Andrea
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1911 Free Index (still in Taunton) indicates that 'Arthur' should be Archie and birth reg's show an Archibald Dunster Smith b. Dec.1898 Cardiff.
Unfortunately the summary doesn't even show the first names, you get Mr. Smith or Mrs. Smith or Miss Smith, and a head count by gender
Sounds to me as though you are using the Ancestry 1911 Summary Books
Go to http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
Input Archie Smith birthplace Cardiff and you will find the entry referred to above. You will also see it shows Household against the entry
If you then follow the instructions below - you may get what you want
USING THE FREE 1911 INDEX TO DETERMINE THE CORRECT HOUSEHOLD
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
Once you find a possible match - make a note of the county and district in which the person was living
Return to the index and in PERSONAL DETAILS - just put the surname of the family - nothing else
In LOCATION - Select the county and below it - type in the district
In OTHER MEMBERS OF THE HOUSEHOLD - show the full name of the person you have found on the index
Click SEARCH
You will have to buy credits to view the full entry - the above instructions will only help to possibly show others of the same name in the same household
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Thanks Andrea, for the links.
Carole, that worked just fine. I was originally using the FindMyPast 1911 Census Person Search, and was getting nothing for Florence, absolutely 0 hits, no matter how many of her names or initials I used, or not, and even if I inverted the first and last names, as they suggest for an institution. Now on the 1911cesnsus.co.uk site all I have to do is find all the families I'm following who cross the 1911 boundary, and do a free index check on them, and have my searches all ready to go for obtaining the original pages. Thanks again.
John
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Have found Edwin Palmer Smith in 1901 - not quite what I expected.
1901 - Somerset & Bath Asylum, Bishops Lydeard, Somerset
Edwin P. Smith Patient Marr. 37 Shoemaker Lunatic Born unknown.
Ref. RG13 - 2279 - 136 - 18
Is this why Florence took to drink??
Annette
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Annette, you come up with the most wonderful stuff! Having part of the family living in the last operational workhouses was fun, but having a certified lunatic in the family is priceless. If only my mother and father, who died within the last year, had been around to hear this. I'm sure they would have loved it.
We're not clear on who did what to whom. Was this him "dying of a broken heart" because she was drinking already? All sorts of possibilities... I see Flo had 2-3 kids post-lunatic, so was Edwin the father, one wonders? My family history is a soap opera! ::)
It seems Edwin was almost nothing of what we thought. The next thing we know you'll find out he upholstered hamsters for a living.
I haven't found anything convincing for Edwin in the 1911 index so far, although I'm finally making progress on the Howard family. You really have to tease the information out, don't you?
Must let my sisters know the latest news before this blizzard brings down the power lines...
Thanks for making my day!
John
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The next thing we know you'll find out he upholstered hamsters for a living.
Love it!!
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By the way, I have a birth certificate for Cyril Charles Greyson Smith on order from the GRO. (1892 Sep-Dec Pancras 1b 15). Expected mailing date 07 Feb, but from previous experience I suspect it will be a couple of weeks before I get anything.
John
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Hello, the Archibald Dunster Smith mentioned in this post was my maternal grandfather, he is buried in Taunton Deane cemetery and I am going to see his grave this weekend when I visit my aunt (who is his daughter) in Somerset. He was shell shocked in the war and died in 1959 when I was 6. I never met him. My aunt and cousins who still live near Taunton may have futher information about the family. I wonder if this is any help? Obviously Cyril was his brother.
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I have just finished reading all the posts re Edward (Edwin) and found the one that says he was a lunatic in the local asylum, so I think it's important to mention here that his son, my grandfather Archibald Dunster Smith, also spent time in the local asylum, I was told it was because he was shell shocked, but if his father suffered from mental illness perhaps this was not the only reason ? My mother never mentioned her real father, and the family history on that side is a huge mystery , for instance I grew up never knowing that my mother had an elder sister, Mildred. I don't know who you are, that you are so interested, but maybe you are a long lost relative of mine ??
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Hi "Flyfree"... you certainly would be a relative of mine, in fact a second cousin. I have a quite extensive tree for the Smith line, leading back through the Smith, Maskell, Dunster, Bierley, Redman, Warner, etc. lines, some as far back as the 1700's. I have the asylum records for Edwin, and also some brief records for when Archibald and his mother and siblings were in the Taunton Union Workhouse (from Apr 1899 to Nov 1902). I can certainly give you viewing rights to my family tree on ancestry.com if you'd like. And I would certainly like to add your information to the tree. All I have for Archibald was his birth in Cardiff, Wales, and I show him in the 1901 and 1911 census - after this I lose track of him. I haven't been able to clearly identify a military service record, as there are many Archibald Smiths, but none with "Dunster", and I have no details such as service number, which service he was in, etc. I can also send photos of your relatives descending from Cyril Charles Gray Smith, Archie's brother.
The story that descended through our family via Cyril was a fabrication. When he was married in 1919 he claimed his father was deceased. He also said his mother had abandoned the family and that his father had died of a broken heart. In fact his father had been unstable and at times might have been violent towards his wife. While he was in the asylum for the first time and she was with the kids in the workhouse, and after that period, she kept the family together. Edwin in fact went back into the asylum in 1925, and died there in 1936. Our great grandmother seems to have been abused in memory as well as in fact.
Hopefully eventually we can find out what happened to other members of the family, such as the eldest, Edwin M, born in 1891, Henry, born in 1909 (d.1975?) , and Ivy, born in 1905 (d.1965?).
Looking forward to hearing from you.
John
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