RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: twitter on Saturday 29 January 11 20:04 GMT (UK)
-
Hi All
This is a first for me so I hope I'm doing it correctly. My husbands ggg grandfather was James Sinclair. Born around 1816. He married Margaret Menzies in June 1838 in Lesmahagow and they moved to Glassford. He died between June 1841 and Oct 1844. Margaret Sinclair remained in Glassford for the rest of her life. I am assuming that since they lived there he would have been buried in the church yard but church records were not kept from 1807 until required to do so by law in 1855. Can anyone be of assistance. Twitter
-
Hi Twitter,
Welcome to Rootschat.
According to the monumental inscriptions for Glassford parish churchyard there are 2 stones that mention the name Sinclair and one stone with Menzies on it.
No sign of James Sinclair but I wonder if this could be his parents? It's a simple marker stone that reads - "The burying place of Archibald sinclair and Margaret Lowrie his wife and their children 1805". This stone would have been erected to mark the family plot (Plot owners were encouraged to do this by the kirk session because of "interlopers" taking over the ground) it does not mean that the entire family died in 1805.
The other stone belonged to a family by the name of Woodburn, "Elizabeth Sinclair died 27th July 1911 aged 70 years, wife of George woodburn". If you think this is a connection I will send you the full transcription.
The 3rd stone is interesting - I wonder if James' wife remarried after his death? Could this be her?
"Robert Crozier died 24th December 1898 aged 79 years. His wife Margaret Menzies died 8th December 1898 aged 80 years. Their daughters, Isabella died 17th March 1853 aged 7 years and Margaret died 29th February 1876 aged 22 years".The age is right, Glassford was, and still is, a tiny parish, and this is the only Menzies in the entire list of inscriptions.
Good luck,
Lodger.
-
I have pictures of the 2 headstones with the name Sinclair that you have quoted Lodger
-
Found the marriage for Robert Crozier and Margaret Menzies on the IGI, dated 13th October 1844 at Glassford, so I assume that this is why you give Oct 1844 as the cut-off date for the death of James.
Here are 2 views of "The Glessart" kirkyard, Sancti will, upon request, supply the individual pictures.
-
To Lodger and Sancti
You two have accomplished more for me in two hours than I have been able to accomplish in years. Yes to everything. Margaret Menzies/Sinclair maried a Robert Crozer or Crozier (spelling changed over the years) on the 13 Oct !844. She had two children to James 1. John and 2.Elizabeth and at least 3 children to George. Elizabeth married a George Woodburn on the 27th of July 1861. What I didn't know and could never find out were who were Margaret's parents names but you've accomplished that also. Any info/ pictures inscriptions etc you have would be most welcome. Thank you. Please write back soon Twitter
-
Glad to help! Here's the full inscription for the Woodburn stone.
"Many friends erected this memorial of the Christian life and labours of George Woodburn born 16th November 1840 died 1st May 1900. Of his family, died James 11th April 1877. Jeanie died 21st June 1877. Robert died 11th January 1879. David died 14th December 1895. Also, his wife Elizabeth Sinclair who died 27th July 1911 aged 70 years. Mary died 4th August 1951 aged 68 years and is interred at Larkhall. John died 27th January 1962 aged 84 years. Elizabeth died 25th November 1963 aged 83 years".
Lodger.
-
To Sancti and Lodger
Thanks again for your help. The Woodburn and Crozier families are all related to us. I would appreciate photo's of the grave stones when you have time. I was able to trace Archibald Sinclair and Margaret Lawrie on both Scotlandspeople and on the IGI. They were married on the 23rd of May 1777 in Stonehouse. When I got that piece of data I was so hopeful that James was one of the "children" however, Archie and Margaret had only two children both girls. Isabel born in 1786 and Hellen born in 1781. If they had others they don't appear to have been registered. So my James and Margaret remain a mystery. Over the years I have been tracing every Sinclair family in Glassford to try and find a family connection, but no luck so far and also the Menzies family in Lesmahagow. The 1841 Census is so flawed that locating parents based on the birthdates registered remains speculation until you have additional supporting data. Is there any other avenue ie: church records, genealogy group or town historian that made have information.
Again thanks for you help you've been terrific. twitter
-
Just a thought....
I am wondering whether if James Sinclair is connected to Archibald Sinclair and Margaret Law/urie, there could be a missing generation? Archibald and Margaret married 1777 and then James's birth c. 1816...a big gap there potentially.
Monica :)
-
To Monica
Thank you for your interest in my James Sinclair quest. It is possible that either of the two girls may have married a Sinclair but it is also just as possible that James and Margaret were "imports" from who knows where and have no family relations in Glassford. I will try and trace the two girls and see if anything turns up. It would be wonderful if Archie and Margaret turned out to be the grandparents.
James had a son named John, who had a daughter Annie Allan Sinclair, who died in Toronto Canada at the age of 105. At the end she was frail but lucid and could have answered my questions but I wasn't into genealogy then. So a word to the wise -mine your seniors memories while you have the chance.
Twitter
-
I was reading with interest the comments on Glassford cemetery and also the name of Crozier.
I am researching the Crozier family from Glassford for a friend. I am just wondering if there are multiple headstones for that name or if the one you quoted for Robert is the only one.
Thanks
Sharon
-
Hi Sharon,
In the next plot to Robert there is Archibald Crozier, his wife Margaret Scott and several children. another inscription is for William Shearer & his wife Janet Crozier and in the new cemetery is John Crozier & his wife Helen Shearer who both died in the 1930s in their eighties.
Lodger
-
Thank you for that Lodger
None of those names ring a bell, but then I have only just started looking at this family.
names I am looking at are John Crozier, father of Robert Crozier (1809 - 1886). Associated names are Brownlie and Wood from the Glassford area.
Much appreciated nonetheless.
Kind regards
Sharon
-
Lodger
I amend my previous statement. Family search shows an Archibald Crozier son of John Crozier and Helen Brownlie born Glassford 1810. Since my particular family also has Brownlie I suspect some sort of relationship.
Janet Crozier (spouse Shearer) could be the dau of Archibald Crozier and Margaret Scott or Robert Crozier and Margaret Menzies mentioned previously.
I am thinking they must all be connected somehow as the names are all the same. Is it too much trouble to ask for the transcription of these headstones?
Much appreciated
Sharon
-
Sharon,
Here are the 4 inscriptions (not necessarily in the exact order that they appear on the stone but put into a family group to avoid confusing generations).
"Robert Crozier died 24th December 1898 aged 79 years. His wife Margaret Menzies died 8th December 1898 aged 80 years. Their daughters, Isabella died 17th March 1853 aged 7 years & Margaret died 29th February 1876 aged 22 years".
Adjoining stone -
"Erected by his sons in memory of Archibald Crozier who died at West Quarter 29th April 1863 aged 53 years. Their mother Margaret Scott died 17th July 1897 aged 79 years. Their sister Helen died at Paisley 11th October 1889 aged 49 years. John died at Johannesburg 17th March 1890 aged 41 years. Margaret died at Saltcoats 7th June 1890 aged 52 years. Willie died in infancy. Eliza died at Rutherglen 20th February 1901 aged 55 years".
"William Shearer died at Sidehead farm Stonehouse 16th November 1931 aged 80 years. His wife Janet Crozier died at Auchmeddon, Lesmahagow 1st November 1910 aged 62 years. Stone erected by their son John".
And in the new cemetery extention -
"John Crozier died 28th April 1932 aged 84 years. His wife Helen Shearer died 23rd September 1934 aged 81 years. Their children, Private James Crozier H.L.I. died of wounds 10th May 1919 aged 19 years. John Shearer Crozier died 22nd May 1934 aged 41 years. Janet died 4th April 1969 aged 80 years. Agnes died 7th June 1972 aged 86 years. Elizabeth died 26th December 1973 aged 90 years. Christina died 8th December 1980 aged 84 years".
According to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the above James who served with the HLI had the middle name of Brownlie - a good match for you! Here is the link to the website -
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/666649/CROZIER,%20JAMES%20BROWNLIE
Sancti, a member of this List, may well have photographs of the stone at Glassford (The Glessart as it's known locally).
Lodger
-
Morning Sharon
With help from both Lodger and Sancti and Scotlands People I have been working on the Sinclair, Crozier (Crozer)Woodburn families for quite a while.
James Sinclair married Margaret Menzies June 3 1838 in Lesmahagow
- two children born John 17/05/1839 and Elisabeth 4/02/1841.
-James dies somewhere between22/12/1841 and 13/10/1844
Margaret Sinclair (Menzies) remarries to Robert Crozer 13/10/1844
- three children born Isabella 21/06/45; Janet Crozer 1848: Margaret 1854
- Margaret Crozier (Menzies, Sinclair) died in Larkhall Hospital 8/12/1898
- Robert Crozier dies 24/12 / 1898
- daughter Isabella Crozier dies 17/03/1853 -7 years old
- daughter Margaret dies 29/02/1876- 22 years old
- daughter Janet marries William Shearer (no date)
It was William Shearer (Janet Crozier's husband) who provided the details on Margaret Crozier's (Menzies, Sinclair's) death certificate. It is interesting to note that he didn't know of Margaret's mother's name but indicated that her father was an Andrew Menzies (deceased). I have been unable to find this Andrew Menzies. The only one I could find was Margaret's brother also called Andrew living in Lesmahagow.
John Sinclair married Margaret Marshall 27/01/1865 in Avondale and they had 6 kids and moved to Greenock, Renfrew
Elisabeth Sinclair married George Woodurn 16/11/1840 and remained in Glassford for the rest of her life and had 9 kids. She is buried in Glassford Cemetery.
So the Sinclairs are related to the Croziers, Woodburns, Shearers and later the Rarity's and Marshalls.
But I am still waiting for the Kirk session records to come on line internationally so that I can trace my James Sinclair further back from 1838.
I hope that helps Sharon,
Twitter
-
Thanks to Lodger and Twitter for all that info :D
Since Glassford seems to be such a small village (I have looked at various maps) I am inclined to think all these families are related.
John Crozier abt 1809 died 1885 - parents John Crozier and Jane Brownlie (Jane perhaps a mistake and should read Helen?)
Robert Crozier (married to Jean Bell) died 1882 - parents John Crozier and Helen Brownlie
What is given on certificates and census I have found is that these families live in Westquarter. Noted on old maps that this is around, or has become the village of Glassford. Am I correct in this assumption?
Lots to work on ::) again, many thanks
Sharon
-
Hi Sharon,
Yes, you are correct in your assumption. westquarter has now become Glassford village.
Have a look at this link -
http://stat-acc-scot.edina.ac.uk/sas/sas.asp/?account=2&accountrec=005172&action=publicdisplay&county=Lanark&monospace=&naecache=17&navbar=&nohighlight=&pagesize=&parish=Hamilton&session-id=009aa6498240c547750009e71c0db546&transcript=&twoup=#pageimage
-
Lodger, thank you for the link to the Statistical Accounts, I had forgotten about those :-[ They confirm that there was thriving weaving industry in this small village. All the Croziers were weavers.
Twitter, thank you for the information you put together on Margaret Menzies and her link to the Crozier families.
The monumental inscriptions were invaluable. With what has been provided here and via Scotlands People I have been able to link all these families and take them back to a place called Linton in Roxburgh. From what I have found thus far, it would appear that 2 brothers, John and Robert came to Glassford around the beginning of the 19th century. They were baptised in Linton to parents John Crozier and Janet Stevenson. Twitter, I am happy to help with certificate information if you are interested in pursuing these lines.
A father and son Crozier has both married Brownlies, I am beginning to think that everyone in the village will have some sort of connection either through blood or marriage. I certainly indeed to hire the parish registers.
Once again many thanks for your help. Do you know if it is possible to buy a booklet of the MI's ... it might come in very handy along the way.
Kind regards
Sharon
-
Hi Sharon
The problem with Glassford's records is that they stopped recording deaths in 1807 and did not resume recording deaths until required to do so by law in 1854. So without the help of Lodger and Sancti I would have nothing on the Sinclair's or the rest. I did contact the South Lanarkshire Bereavement Services and they passed my request on to their Cemetery Offices and they responded that they have no records prior to 1912. I have also tried to contact the church directly but had no response. So good hunting and your right a MI's record would be very valuable as my research is at a dead end .
The best
Twitter
-
Hi Twitter
Since we last spoke I have done quite a lot of work on the Croziers (various spellings) in this area. To date they all link back to a John (1788) and Robert Crozier (1795) who were born in Linton Roxburgh to a John Crozer (sic) and Janet Stevenson.
I have ordered the film for Glassford since it states that there are burials from 1733 to 1807. This should help fill in the pre-1855 deaths (note I said should ::) ) Have you looked at this?
There is also another film for baptisms up to 1832-1891. I haven't seen any films post 1854 so will be interested to know what this one contains.
If there is anything in particular you were searching for, just say so, when the film arrives I am happy to check it if you have not already done so.
Sharon
-
Hi Sharon
Thank you so much for your kind offer. Yes actually since your asked.My research indicates there were 5 Sinclair families in Glassford in the 1840's and 4 of them for sure were related. The one I am really after is our James Sinclair, who would be my husbands ggg grandfather. Before his marriage in 1838 to Margaret Menzies he lived and/ or worked in Dalserf Lanark. After the marriage they moved to Glassford. Now this is going to sound strange but James "says" he was born in 1812. I know this because either Sancti or Lodger told me about a murder trail in 1841 covered by the papers. I ordered the trial documents and as a witness he was asked his age. However; this didn't help as I could find no trace of an 1812 birth on SP. So either the birth wasn't noted or he made it up on the spot- who knows. So, yes please, I would love to get a new thread to follow as I've been at a dead end for over a year. The murdered man was James' uncle William Sinclair . All this trouble over the weaving of a bit of cloth.
The Best
Twitter