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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Sapper59 on Thursday 27 January 11 17:16 GMT (UK)
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My father (Jack Lee, T/99927, RASC) and many others in his group had a close shave when the Lancastria was sunk as they were to have boarded her on the 17th but ended up walking up a gankplank that midnight onto a ship and sailed for Plymouth early on the 18th, landing on the 20th. He said it was the "Ben McCree", an Isle of Man packet but there hasn't been such a ship, but there was, (and still is), a "Ben-My-Chree", which makes sense, but there is nothing in Navy records of the Ben-My-Chree being involved, according to records she was never at St, Nazaire! But there was a small cargo or ferry ship capable of entering the habour instead of laying off in the bay like the Lancastria and Oronsey and John Holt and it did take on survivours including Wilfred Oldham and Neville Chesterton who write of a simular experience in their memoirs elsewhere on the web.
After disembarkation and a cup of tea and a sandwich they were moved to Borden Camp on Salisbury plain.
So what was that small ship,? Was the Ben-My-Chree at St, Nazaire on 18th June 1940?
Any ideas or anyone know of my Dad in the war, he was discharded in 1946 after losing his left eye in late 1944 when he was a sergeant.
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Hello,
You could check out BEN-MY-CHREE's WWII movement card which is held at Kew in piece reference BT 389/4 and downloadable for £3.50. See this link: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8168883&queryType=1&resultcount=1
Regards
Hugh
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Right done that and the Ben-My-Chree was damaged and in repair at the time untill at least the 20th June. worth noting that although she made four runs to Dunkirk and that is a fact, it's not logged either. The mystery continues, what was that boat that docked in St. Nazaire the night of 17th June 1940?
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Could it have been a RN warship?
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Have you looked up the movements of Floristan?
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I think it is DORSETSHIRE ( or possibly City of Cairo)
I have just looked at www.convoyweb.org.uk and search for ports and arrivals
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hello sapper 59
found this article on the st nazaire pick up , hm ships detailed for st nazaire -cambridgeshire -havelock -highlander-vanoc-punjabi- hmt lancastria- merchant ships oracle -oronsay-john holt-robert l holt -city of lancaster -baharistan -clan ferguson-floristan -ulster prince -city of mobile -cymbula- fabian-glenaffric .
then the following sentence in relation to it all .
rn destroyers havelock & highlander with assistance from small french craft acted as tenders ferrying the evacuees from shore to the waiting ships.
i,m just wondering if one of the french craft could be the boat your looking for !!
trevor
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Correction.
Look up Convoy FF.2A and you will see a list of ships.
My dad was probably also on one of those ships.
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Not a warship unless it was a small one and SNO St Nazaire didn't mention one, nor did they transfer to a lager one such as the Oronsey, Dad was quite specific about it being an IOM packet and the name he said was the Ben McCrea which is a possible corruption of Ben MY Chree, rumour has it that the crew of the Ben MY Chree, having undergone four runs to Dunkirk and suffered damage in a collision refused to sail again and the navy took over and sailed her to St Nazaire hence no log entry and also accounts for the "The Navies here" remark which is not a bit of the merchant marine I think.
I have also looked at teh navy records for the 16th to 22nd June 1940 and quite a few things don't match up. I am begining to wonder if Dad was telling porkies and didn't get out at that port at all! Service records show up bugger all if mine are anything to go by, possible waste of £30 but I'll give it a go.
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OK, concentrating on BEN-MY-CHREE as your father has made a reasonable guess at its name and indicated it was an IOM steam packet company ship which is correct. If you are in a position to visit Kew you should check the ship's Official Log which for 1940 is held in piece reference BT 381/769 under the ship's official number 145304.
Movement cards were made up by Board of Trade clerks and were not always up to date or accurate but still a cheap source of information that should never be ignored.
Regards
Hugh
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One other factor is that news of the sinking of Lancastria was suppressed by Churchill for about three months, and men returning from St Nazaire were told not to tell anyone what had happened.
The parents of my dad had received a telegram to say that he was missing. But by the time the telegram was delivered my dad was back at home.
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Just going back through documents that I have on Dunkirk, they differ slightly to your information. The BEN-MY-CHREE completed two trips to Dunkirk and was scheduled to complete four. The master refused to sail again to Dunkirk after the experience that the ship had undergone in the previous sailings. A Naval crew was put aboard apart from the Chief Officer who stayed as captain together with 3 greasers and the W/T Officer. On sailing at 1905/2nd June BEN-MY-CHREE was in collision and did not complete the trip.
The question is if she was in a collision on 2nd June how badly was she damaged? Was she still undergoing repairs on 20th June as suggested by the movement card? The Official Log is where I would go next to rule her in or out of your search.
Regards
Hugh
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According to one report I have just read on wikipedia (I think) Ben my Chree rescued 4000 men from Dunkirk.
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The following has a comprehensive chronology and list of ships involved in Operation AERIAL:
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWDa-Aerial.htm
K
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Lady of Mann is mentioned in that file. She was probably an IOM boat, possibly could be confused with the other IOM boat.
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Thought "The Navy's here" remark was attributed to the Altmark incident?
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Confused, yur reckon?
Brest Arrivals: Wed Jun 12, 1940, include BAHARISTAN; Fri Jun 14, 1940, CITY OF CHRISTCHURCH, Sun Jun 16, 1940, CITY OF FLORENCE, ETTRICK, ORMONDE, OTRANTO. Mon Jun 17, 1940, CITY OF DERBY & STRATHAIRD, all independent; FRANCES DAWSON OA.168GF. Brest Departures CITY OF DERBY, BAHARISTAN, Sat Jun 15, 1940, BEURSPLEIN, CITY OF CHRISTCHURCH, PORT MONTREAL, YORKWOOD. Sun Jun 16, 1940, BLAIRANGUS, CANTERBURY, LADY OF MANN, ORMONDE, OTRANTO, VIENNA. Mon Jun 17, 1940 CITY OF DERBY, KONINGIN EMMA, LYCAON, STRATHAIRD, ULSTER MONARCH. Tue Jun 18, 1940 ETTRICK, CITY OF FLORENCE, Wed Jun 19, 1940 JAMES MCGEE, Escorted, ATHELCHIEF. Thu Jun 20, 1940 ANASTASSIA, DAVANGER, Fri Jun 21, 1940, FRANCES DAWSON. Sat Jun 22, 1940, VILJA
16th JUne
S.N.O. Brest reported that LADY OF MANN, MANXMAN & CANTERBURY were loaded with 6000 troops, but held up by mines. He intended to load VIENNA, who was in harbour under orders for Nantes.
ETTRICK, KONINGIN EMMA & LADY OF MANN were also to proceed to Quiberon Bay to embark troops from Loire (having disembarked the ones loaded earlier?). MACKAY was ordered to send destroyers not immediately required to join Captain D.9. at St. Nazaire. WESTCOTT was to join them on the following morning.
17th June
LADY OF MANN arrived Plymouth from Brest 0450; CANTERBURY & MANXMAID AT 0521.
18th June
WREN escorting AMSTERDAM & LADY OF MANN sailed for Plymouth (0224)(Having arrived the day eirlier)
19th JUIne
MACKAY (1041) stated La Pallice gate shut, ALDERPOOL & LADY OF MANN outside. Endeavouring to get it opened. (having set sail for Plymouth the day after she arrived)
Confused yet?
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I have a letter my father sent to my mother saying he had landed at Plymouth on June 19th 1940 at 6pm, he drew a picture of the ship with 3 funnells, he said the ship he should have been on had got hit and sunk, I dont know whether this could have been the Lancastria in St. Nazaire or not, and I am trying to find out the name of the ship he was on. Anyone any ideas?.
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What regiment or Corps was your father in? Was he in the RASC and what was his trade or specialism?
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I have a letter my father sent to my mother saying he had landed at Plymouth on June 19th 1940 at 6pm, he drew a picture of the ship with 3 funnells, he said the ship he should have been on had got hit and sunk, I dont know whether this could have been the Lancastria in St. Nazaire or not, and I am trying to find out the name of the ship he was on. Anyone any ideas?.
There is a web site which lists most merchant ship and convoy movements during WW2, very comprehensive, you can search individual ports on a certain date and see the names of ships arriving and departing. www.convoyweb give me a few mins and I will check full address. Come back here in three or four mins.
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www.convoyweb.org.uk
Go to the section on ports, Type in Plymouth for the date in question, and you will probably get several names of ships listing their "cargo" as X number of troops.
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Arrivals at Plymouth on Wednesday 19th June 1940: Baharistan. City of Mobile .... Clan Ferguson. Fabian. Glen Affric all designated as Convoy FF.2A.
Plus Dorsetshire and Ormonde marked as "Independent"
If you go to another page and look up convoy FF.2A you will probably see the number of troops carried on those ships.
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Found one problem, the Ben my Chere was on I.O.M. packet steamer and therefor not on all UK records etc. I now have two independent accounts of her at St Nazaire which is very strange. The ship I am looking for embarked DOCKSIDE so it was not a big ship as they had to lay off like the Lancastria and Oronsay etc. The more I look the deeper the mystery.
I have check and cross referenced all the ships leaving St, Nazaire on the 18th June (last day any ship sailed from that evacuation port. Many don't tie up, Like the Lady of Man).
On the subject of records I have filled in the fomrs part one and two and supplied name, rank, number, date of enlistment. year of discharge, Corps and opperations of service as I know them and I have been told that for my $30 there is not a lot more than that they can supply and it will take 9 to 12 months anyway, someone is understaffed or needs to get their finger out!
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Have you asked to see the "Merchant Shipping Movement Card" for that ship from The National Archive?
Have you searched for Ben my Chree at Plymouth, Falmouth, Portsmouth Southampton in the week after 18th June? Is there an Isle of Man section on this Forum, may be an idea to ask on there. someone who lives on IoM may be able to look it up in the Archives of the IoM steam packet company.
Try searching for the FF series of convoys. FF.2A arrived at Plymouth on 19th June 1940.
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This may help.
Must acknowledge Drew who did the work.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/33566-personnel-vessel-crews-refused-sail-dunkirk.html
Pete
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Arrivals at Plymouth on Wednesday 19th June 1940: Baharistan. City of Mobile .... Clan Ferguson. Fabian. Glen Affric all designated as Convoy FF.2A.
Plus Dorsetshire and Ormonde marked as "Independent"
If you go to another page and look up convoy FF.2A you will probably see the number of troops carried on those ships.
Thankyou for your response Scouseboy, I will check these out, My father was in the R A O C at this time and think he was a dispatch rider, he hardly ever spoke about the war but did say once he had ridden 600 miles across France on a BSA M20 and its roughly that distance I believe from Dunkirk where he had been after the liberation on June 4th.
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I was talking to a gentleman (age about 90) a year or so ago after the Lancastria memorial service in Edinburgh who had been at St Nazaire on 17th June 1940. He had been ordered to smash up Motor bikes with a sledgehammer in a warehouse at St Nazaire to stop them being used by the enemy.
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I was talking to a gentleman (age about 90) a year or so ago after the Lancastria memorial service in Edinburgh who had been at St Nazaire on 17th June 1940. He had been ordered to smash up Motor bikes with a sledgehammer in a warehouse at St Nazaire to stop them being used by the enemy.
I can understand why that was done, dad said the engine on his bike was a deep red it was so hot but kept going.
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My dad was in the RASC, and was at St Nazaire on 17th June 1940.
I wish he was still alive for me to ask him more details of what happened.
He told me that he got to Falmouth and troops were asking to use the phone in the Post Office to phone to their families to let them know they were back in England. Apparently my dad got through to home and told them he was back in England, and said "Tell Joyce that we will get married as soon as possible" At which a big cheer went up from the big crowd in the Post Office. He got married on the 23rd June.
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Have you asked to see the "Merchant Shipping Movement Card" for that ship from The National Archive?
Have you searched for Ben my Chree at Plymouth, Falmouth, Portsmouth Southampton in the week after 18th June? Is there an Isle of Man section on this Forum, may be an idea to ask on there. someone who lives on IoM may be able to look it up in the Archives of the IoM steam packet company.
Try searching for the FF series of convoys. FF.2A arrived at Plymouth on 19th June 1940.
Done all that and have cards/records but there are big gaps from June 2nd to 20th when she arrived for repairs. I still can't fathom out why Dad would say he boarded the "Ben McCree" (Ben-my-Chree) about midnight of the 17th June if he didn't, where would he have gotten the name from as he certainly didn't get away at Dunkirk, the only other place she was deffinetly at?
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Have you asked to see the "Merchant Shipping Movement Card" for that ship from The National Archive?
Have you searched for Ben my Chree at Plymouth, Falmouth, Portsmouth Southampton in the week after 18th June? Is there an Isle of Man section on this Forum, may be an idea to ask on there. someone who lives on IoM may be able to look it up in the Archives of the IoM steam packet company.
Try searching for the FF series of convoys. FF.2A arrived at Plymouth on 19th June 1940.
Done all that and have cards/records but there are big gaps from June 2nd to 20th when she arrived for repairs. I still can't fathom out why Dad would say he boarded the "Ben McCree" (Ben-my-Chree) about midnight of the 17th June if he didn't, where would he have gotten the name from as he certainly didn't get away at Dunkirk, the only other place she was deffinetly at?
One explanation that I can offer is that he did not want to tell his mum or his wife how bad a time he had had. I believe that my dad was on the Lancastria, but he could not talk about it. He may have been confused and traumatised. at the time, especially if hed been rescued from the water.
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I suggest that you buy or borrow the book "HMT Lancastria" which has a list of the known casualties and their army or service numbers. You may find companies or units identical to what your relative was in.
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Just going back through documents that I have on Dunkirk, they differ slightly to your information. The BEN-MY-CHREE completed two trips to Dunkirk and was scheduled to complete four. The master refused to sail again to Dunkirk after the experience that the ship had undergone in the previous sailings. A Naval crew was put aboard apart from the Chief Officer who stayed as captain together with 3 greasers and the W/T Officer. On sailing at 1905/2nd June BEN-MY-CHREE was in collision and did not complete the trip.
The question is if she was in a collision on 2nd June how badly was she damaged? Was she still undergoing repairs on 20th June as suggested by the movement card? The Official Log is where I would go next to rule her in or out of your search.
Regards
Hugh
According to my records BEN MY CHREE made three trips to Dunkirk. Sailing from there 31/5/40, 1/6/40, 3/6/40. She sailed Dover 7/6/1940. Dry docked Birkenhead 11/6/40. released 28/6/40. Sailed Liverpool 30/6/40
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Just in case it is mentioned on the film "Dunkirk" which is on TV now.
ITV 4 on now Dunkirk the film.
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"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
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Just wanted to say hello on here as well as WW2 Talk! My great-grandfather also told his family about it being an Isle of Man steamer. There seems to be so many differing reports of what the B-M-C was up to during that time, it's seems easy to imagine that maybe one trip just got lost. Do the I of M hold any other records about there ships, that might fill in the gaps?
John - My great-grandfather was in the RAOC as well at St Nazaire.
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All reports indicate the Ben My Chree was indeed in Birkenhead being repaired on the 17th June 1940 BUT, at least 4 independent accounts have her at St Nazaire on the 17th, the day the Lancastria was hit. The IOMPSC was of no help. I have the movement card and log but there are gaps. There is also the fact the Navy took over the ship in early June (and pranged it).
The following is a message from WW2Talk forum
Hello,
I've just seen your post about the Ben-my-Chree and St Nazaire. My great-grandfather was also shipped out on the Ben-my-Chree from St Nazaire, he told my grandfather that the ship in front of them sank (the Lancastria). Everyone has been telling me, and you, that that the Ben-my-Chree didn't evacuate anyone from there but it strikes me as strange that both my great-grandfather and your relative should remember something so utterly wrong. It's not even like a ship with a similar name shipped out from there. I just wanted to say hello and add my support to the belief that the Ben-my-Chree evacuated troops from St Nazaire!
Kind regards,
Elissa
The mystery deepens even more
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That's my message, but no-one was able to offer me any explanation
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Which UK port did Ben my Chree reach first to disembark her passengers at? If she had been at st Nazaire on 17 or 18th June.
Falmouth, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Poole or Liverpool even?
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Just going back through documents that I have on Dunkirk, they differ slightly to your information. The BEN-MY-CHREE completed two trips to Dunkirk and was scheduled to complete four. The master refused to sail again to Dunkirk after the experience that the ship had undergone in the previous sailings. A Naval crew was put aboard apart from the Chief Officer who stayed as captain together with 3 greasers and the W/T Officer. On sailing at 1905/2nd June BEN-MY-CHREE was in collision and did not complete the trip.
The question is if she was in a collision on 2nd June how badly was she damaged? Was she still undergoing repairs on 20th June as suggested by the movement card? The Official Log is where I would go next to rule her in or out of your search.
Regards
Hugh
According to my records BEN MY CHREE made three trips to Dunkirk. Sailing from there 31/5/40, 1/6/40, 3/6/40. She sailed Dover 7/6/1940. Dry docked Birkenhead 11/6/40. released 28/6/40. Sailed Liverpool 30/6/40
My info was from the vessels logbook. Lets get real on this one.
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More attachments see also previous page
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OK so according to the sanitary and repair logs say she was in dry dock, so what the heck did my dad and three other people board alongside the harbour in St. Naziere during the night of 17th/18th June 1940? There is no mention of transfer by lighter to a larger ship and apparently it was unescorted, zig zagging across the bay for two days before arriving in Plymouth on the 20th where they were ferried off to the docks and on to Borden Camp on Salisbury Plain..
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That's my message, but no-one was able to offer me any explanation
Scary thought, Your grandfather and my farther was the same person, I don't think so though.
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My father (Jack Lee, T/99927, RASC) and many others in his group had a close shave when the Lancastria was sunk as they were to have boarded her on the 17th but ended up walking up a gankplank that midnight onto a ship and sailed for Plymouth early on the 18th, landing on the 20th. He said it was the "Ben McCree", an Isle of Man packet but there hasn't been such a ship, but there was, (and still is), a "Ben-My-Chree", which makes sense, but there is nothing in Navy records of the Ben-My-Chree being involved, according to records she was never at St, Nazaire! But there was a small cargo or ferry ship capable of entering the habour instead of laying off in the bay like the Lancastria and Oronsey and John Holt and it did take on survivours including Wilfred Oldham and Neville Chesterton who write of a simular experience in their memoirs elsewhere on the web.
After disembarkation and a cup of tea and a sandwich they were moved to Borden Camp on Salisbury plain.
So what was that small ship,? Was the Ben-My-Chree at St, Nazaire on 18th June 1940?
Any ideas or anyone know of my Dad in the war, he was discharded in 1946 after losing his left eye in late 1944 when he was a sergeant.
My dad was also with the RASC in St Nazaire on that day. My dad was landed at Falmouth, and he phoned home from there to let them know he was back in the UK.
The only explanation I can offer about which Isle of Man Boat they were on, is that maybe equipment from Ben my Chree had been transferred to the other I.O.M boats, so that items labelled Ben My Chree such as Lifebelts or the Hat bands of the Crew were present on one of her sister ships. When I looked at Operation Ariel details a few days ago, I noticed that one of the other IOM Steam packet company boats was at St Nazaire on that day.
Incidentally, I went to the Lancastria memorial service in Edinburgh either last year or the year previous, and was speaking to a Gentleman who had been in St Nazaire at that time. He had been ordered to take a sledgehammer to new Motorcycles at the port to disable them.
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Possible explanation having Ben My Chree on equipment, means the Ben My Chree and the other steamer must have been at the same port on the same day prior to the 17th but after the accident for that to happen.
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Not neccessarily so.
If their home port was Douglas, they may just have been issued with stock from the Company store depot with the name of the other ship on it.
And do not forget it was a national emergency.. There was chaos.
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Please sign the HMT Lancastria petition at http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16594
requesting that the 100 year embargo on the release of the files should be lifted.
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Regarding the LANCASTRIA petition, I doubt there is a 'D' notice or any files concerning this ship with a 100 year embargo. Files in WO 361 are open.
However, one of the most controversial aspects of the sinking of the Lancastria was the alleged cover up of the facts by Churchill's Government. As soon as news reached the Cabinet Office about the Lancastria, Winston Churchill issued a 'D' notice on the news, suspending publication about the disaster until the 'D' notice was lifted.
He later wrote that: 'When news of this came through to me in the quiet Cabinet room during the afternoon, I forbade its publication, saying that the newspapers have got quite enough disaster for today at least. I had intended to release news of the disaster a few days later, but events crowded in so black and so quickly, that I forgot to lift the ban, and it was some time before the knowledge of this horror became public.'
So, the news actually came to light five and a half weeks later. At the time of the sinking, Churchill's Government had been in existence just one day longer than our current government [date of lecture 17 June 2010], and in that time, they had dealt with the evacuation of Dunkirk, the fall of France, the evacuation of the second BEF, and the very real prospect of an invasion across the Channel.
While none of this forgives the blackout on news of the Lancastria, it does explain why Churchill may have genuinely forgotten to lift the ban. The Lancastria was just a bad news story in a sea of bad news stories.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/podcasts/loss-of-lancastria.htm
Regards
Hugh
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I have just read the discussion about the Ben My Chree at Dunkirk and can add something. My late father was on the crew of this ship and he told me that after taking troops from Dunkirk they went down to Brest with the intention of picking up more troops who had moved down there. He used to say that when they got there the harbour was already under German fire so the skipper did not dock and they sailed out. It is possible that he got the harbour wrong and it was in fact St Nazaire or perhaps they then went on to St Nazaire. I guess in time peoples memories do get blurred.
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The fog of war, as they say.
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So now we have three soldiers who say they were on board, a civilian lady who boarded what sounds like a packet ship and now a crew member whose son says his farther was possibly St, Nazair on 17th June 1940 on the Ben-My-Chree, (several ship arrived at Brest only to be moved on the St. Nazaire) so either it was another ship or another ship was in dry dock on that day, can't be in two places at the same time, so someone is wrong. The logs say in dock with clean loos but.... I have checked the ship register and there was not another ship with a name anything like Ben-My-Chree on the seas at that time and it can't be a confusion on dates as the LAST ships left St. Nazair on the 18th, June ??? ??? ??? weirder and weirder
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She may have been on a sensitive or secret mission. She may have been carrying a senior politician or a high ranking officer.
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Sorry that I've come very late to this but I might be able to shed some light on it. My grandfather was part of the BEF and was evacuated from St Nazaire. He narrowly missed getting onboard the Lancastria and watched from the harbour as it was attacked and sunk. He was evacuated soon after and was then posted to the Isle of Man to guard prison camps housing 'aliens' (German, Austrian and Italian civilians living in the UK). It was there that he met my grandmother. After they married in 1942, he was talking to her father, my great-grandfather. They discovered that they had both seen the sinking of the Lancastria that night at St Nazaire; my grandfather from the dockside and my great-grandfather, from the the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company ship he was serving on, lying off the French port. I have struggled to find any mention of IoMSP ships involved in Operation Aerial and wondered how the story of their conversation came about. But the accounts here could explain it.