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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Suznor on Thursday 27 January 11 15:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone help trace John Baldwin Theobald. Here's what i know
Born: 1809/10 Freshwater Isle of Wight to John Theobald and Elizabeth Dore Marriage to Ann Funnell Oct 1831 Hackney - they had 9 children born in the Shoreditch, London area from 1831-1850. I believe Ann died in 1869 in Shoreditch.
The last census in found the family in was 1851 living in Shoreditch and he was an Iron founder
I know that some time between 1851 - 1869 John found his way to New Zealand and he didn't taken his family with him
I cannot find any immigration records.
But i have found a news paper obituary for John for 1869 in Castle Point.
What i would like to discover anything else which points to why he went to New Zealand.
Suznor
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In case you haven't seen this and to help others here with their profiling: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bjs/ .
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Electoral Rolls may show were he was moving backwards from the year he died AND it may show family.
Was it the NZ Directory/ Almanac that listed the first householders in 1869?
Wises only started in 1872 but it could still be interesting to look at that year for surviving relatives - someone had to put that notice in the paper.
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Thanks TwiggyTree
Do you know if the NZ electoral are on line? Also the NZ Directory/ Almanac ? And what is Wises?
Suznor
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The Wises is a Post Office street directory, you paid to go in it so its not always conclusive that a person was in NZ
The Almanac a similar early list and there are other driectories by different companies
There are early directory rolls that wre usually dependent on a person owning property, so again not always a help
Many libraries in NZ and overseas such as Aus have fiche of these records and some pay per view sites have some early directories.
The quickest way would be to get the death certificate printout, although early and often lacking info, it may have more definite info on life in NZ, residence, etc
Someone who has had an early death cert may tell us how much info they got (1869)
Bye
Althea
there are lots of early wellington records on this iste
but can't spot John so far, your eyes may have more luck
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~babznz/Nzlinks.html
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~babznz/electoral.html
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another Q
1861 english census?
Have you found any of the family in that??
Was Ann with any of them, what are the names of some of the youngestchildren that were born late 1840s?
Just trying to see whether others could have come to NZ with John
Bye
althea
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Hi and thanks Althea,
Here's what i have found out about the family so far:
I have no record of John B in then 1861 census
I think that Ann died in 1869 in Shoreditch (1c 133) aged 59 but can't locate her in 1861 census
Children:
Caroline b. 1833 - have copy of bpt record / married George Guest 1855 had issue did 1911 Shoreditch - census records -1841-1901
Christiana b 1834 bpt record died 1872 unmarried had illegimate child Christiana in Shoreditch workhouse in 1859 and she died 1859.
Mary b 1836 only have bpt record
Ann(a) b1839 no bpt record but possible marriage to Robert Baldwin in 1863 in Bishopsgate
John b 1841 no bpt record found but possible marriage to Matlida Cook in 1863 St James Shoreditch
William b 1843 nothing found so far
Harriet b1845 bpt record found died 1845 burial record found both Shoreditch
Emma b 1847 nothing found so far
George b 1850 nothing found so far
This is all i have so far - hope it helps
Suznor
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Hi Suznor
thanks for extra info gives more for people to possibly match
I was hoping that the childrens names may help us find a match here
but can't spot anything yet
a few more eyes may do ;D
Wish we could find family in 1861 would help to get a timeframe and whether possily some of the family came with John.
Some good rchatters maybe able to hunt them down, fingers crossed
Bye
Althea
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Hi Althea,
I will certain follow up on the children's where about in the censuses :-\ and hopefully something more with appear.
Thanks for your help on this.
Hopefully speak again
Bye
Suznor ;D
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May have found Emma in England 1861 but sadly as a servant, not with family
have pm'd details
Bye
Althea
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Hello Suznor...I can't offer any help (sorry :-) but I'm curious as to why there is such a discrepancy between you and LDS Family Search. Or at least that's how I read it. Apologies if I'm wrong.
The name, parents, birth place and approximate d.o.b are all the same but the IGI has a different wife and death date.
Do you have any explanation. For what it's worth, I'm on your side as a death notice in the newspaper trumps the IGI.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
didn't know this, do you think the family details may be combined..be 2 different families??
is John B Theobald meant to have died in UK?
Bye
althea
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It seems that all the records for this man to be found on FamilySearch, are indeed "submitted" - (sources therefore require verification).
~ Lu
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Here's the link to the autobiography of William THEOBALD (December 1888) where he details his family and speaks specifically about his brother John Baldwin THEOBALD (and refers to death in NZ).
http://andersonancestors.blogspot.com/2008/07/william-theobald-autobiography.html
~ Lu
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It's interesting that William THEOBALD has added, regarding the family of (his brother) John Baldwin THEOBALD .....
"His family turned out bad, he was the father of five or six children".
::)
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Hi Suznor
I have some info to add to this thread re: THEOBALD + New Zealand.
Sorry, have to nip out, so will post later this evening.
~ Lu
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Hello Suznor...I can't offer any help (sorry :-) but I'm curious as to why there is such a discrepancy between you and LDS Family Search.
Hi again Suznor....Decided to check the NZ BDM fiches at the local library and found that the John THEOBALD who died in 1886 is actually John Butler THEOBALD who died in Lyttleton. As Lucy pointed out, LDS submitted records are unverified so I shouldn't haven't raised the issue in the first place without checking. Apologies.
Regards
Beg
PS - If it's of any help, there was no listing of a death for John Baldwin THEOBALD (or any spelling variants) from 1867 to 1872. Nor a mention in any of the 1855-1870 "electoral rolls" of the time.
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Interesting that in the NZSG miscellaneous collection is this entry
NZSG Miscellaneous Collection
Name
THEOBALD John Baldwin
Date 1869
Event Death
Event Place Freshwater, Isle of Wight, England
Source Place Wellington, New Zealand
Further enquiries to NZSG Miscellaneous Collection
It could well have just been from that newspaper entry.
Very interesting finding beg :o
Bye
althea
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Decided to check the NZ BDM fiches at the local library and found that the John THEOBALD who died in 1886 is actually John Butler THEOBALD who died in Lyttleton.
Hi again...Just checked BDM NZ Historical and they list John *Walter* THEOBOLD, died 11 Aug 1886 aged 7 weeks. Annoyingly there's no obvious corresponding birth record which would list parents (maybe related?). I'm curious as to where LDS came up with such a definite date of (15 June 1886)
Regards
Beg
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So marriage is to a SARAH, although a childs bap I thought said Charlotte??
Marriages:
Spouse: SARAH POTTER Family
Marriage: 07 OCT 1828 Freshwater, Hampshire, England
Husband Age at Marriage: 19
Is that the one you saw Beg?
BYe
althea
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Hi all,
thanks for all the help.
Emma is living with her sister Caroline in 1861 but after that i can't find anything.
LDS family seach is very dodgy in my opinion - but maybe John B married Sarah Potter - did she die or did he marry Ann while still married. This may account for brother William's opinion of him turning out bad !!!??
William's family are very interesting and well documented - they became Mormons.
The death notice in the paper is available to veiw on line :
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WI18690513.2.19
As to his other Children i have found son John married Matilda Cook he was a cabinet maker and moved to West Ham between 1871-81 and he died 1895.
As for the others i am still looking.
All help will be gratefully recieved
Suznor ;D
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Hi Suznor
yes LDS submitted info can be dubious..but often has an ounce of truth..
From NZ point of view, unfinished business would probably be ships arrival and death details.
The death cert printout if you ever are able may give last clues.
otherwise some posts on english counties forums may help with census hunt to find the missing children and to confirm/find wifes death.
Goodluck
althea
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Glad you've been able to check the deaths on microfiche, Beg. ;)
[I'd been going to do so when I failed to find an 1869 death listing for THEOBALD (or variant). ]
It is of course a preposterous thought to consider the publication of the death notice might have been a hoax. :o
* But, is this a case of a death - where a body has never been found - and thus, a death certificate has not been issued ???
~ Lu
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Hi Suznor
The following is a link to an enquiry made re: John Baldwin THEOBALD, in June of last year (with the enquirer being referred to the Wairarapa Archive / Masterton Library.)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NEW-ZEALAND/2010-06/1277497208
It appears there is some type of record of a burial for a "J. THEOBALD" < no date supplied > at the old Castlepoint Cemetery.
I'd suggest you get in touch with Masterton Library (where you can link directly to Wairarapa Archive.)
http://www.library.mstn.govt.nz/archive.html
~ Lu
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Hi again Suznor
The Masterton Library (Wairarapa Archive) does hold some material which relates to a family named THEOBALD. ( It can be found under the listing for "DAY - Alexander - personal records - genealogies" ).
From what I've been able to discover, this THEOBALD family seems unlikely to be directly related to your John Baldwin.
"A William and Hannah THEOBALD arrived in Wellington, New Zealand in 1857 per the "Indian Queen".
[Hannah's maiden name was also THEOBALD and there is a corresponding marriage at FREE BMD -- 1856 -- plus IGI listing showing place as Hartlepool, Durham.]
A daughter < Eleanor Elizabeth THEOBALD > was born to the couple in 1858 (registration of same, appears to be "Wairarapa").
* William THEOBALD dies in 1859 (see NZ BDM Historical index, online - his age is not recorded).
The widowed Hannah marries William DAY in 1859.
(Both are buried at the Archer Street cemetery in Masterton.)"
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* I wasn't able to find the burial place of William THEOBALD (d. 1859) .... and do wonder if he may be the person recorded as "J. THEOBALD" - buried at the old Castlepoint Cemetery ??
~ Lu
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Hi Suznor
re the link mentioned above
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NEW-ZEALAND/2010-06/1277497208
I have spoken with the writer and she has no further info to confirm who J Theobald was
so sadly without death certificated being purchased anything more is specualtion
Early electoral rolls are our only other hope..they will soon be available in other format other than fiche..hopefully they may give some answers
Bye
Althea
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Hi Suznor
I've viewed the recently-released NZ Electoral Rolls (A****try) and was not able to find a listing for a "John or J. THEOBALD" up to or shortly after his reported death.
~ Lu
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Hello Suznor, I've only just found this message. John Baldwin Theobald was my ggg grandfather.
I have been spending a fair bit of time trying to find why he went to NZ.
Some of the other links and messages were to do with me. The one from Adele who mentioned the burial ground at Castlepoint, was from her helping me.
Like you, I had found the newspaper death notice of John dying in 1869. I havent had any luck finding a death certificate, or an immigration record.
But I do believe the J Theobald on the sign at the cemetery gate at Castlepoint is our John Theobald.
The death date that is on many trees is incorrect, of course it is taken because William mentioned it in his biography, but we all know how incorrect family stories are!
John's nephew Edward John Barnett, the son of his sister Ann Theobald and Isaac Barnett, also moved to NZ and married and died there. The thing is, I had found an immigration record about 1873 for Edward which was after John had died, but most interesting is that around 1880 Edward was a store manager at Castlepoint. Which is a decade after John died. Which makes me wonder whether there was any family left behind there........
The last record of John in England was in the 1861 census:
1861 10 Ebenezer Bldgs Shoreditch
John Theobald, head, mar, 51, Ironmoulder, Isle of Wight
Ann Theobald, wife, mar, 49, Essex Stratford
William Theobald, son, 16, laborer, Shoreditch
George Theobald, son, 9, scholar, Shoreditch
Charles Theobald, son, 7, scholar, Shoreditch
I havent bought the death certificate of Ann so dont know if the one in Shoreditch in 1869 was the correct one.
I have ordered a book called 'Castlepoint' from NZ in the hope of finding some history about the place.
Cheers
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Oh, also, re last reply, there seems to be no record of John in an electoral roll, but he may not have been in NZ very long before he died. I enquired of a local genealogist who is from Masterton NZ, not far from Castlepoint, and she says there was mainly just a large sheep farm in the area, back in that era, so he may have been working there. It was called Castlepoint station.
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And again, after re-reading the posts, re the marriage of John Theobald to a Sarah Potter. This was off the IGI, and I dont believe this to be the same one. I have been through the parish registers of Freshwater, and sure, there is a marriage to a John Theobald to a Sarah Potter , but it only says 'John', not John Baldwin, and gave no indication that it is this particular John. There was nothing to associate him with our line. The name John Theobald was quite common. John Baldwin Theobald married Ann Funnell, in London in 1831 and stated that he was a bachelor. Even if he lied, I havent been able to find a death of this other Sarah who was married to this 'other' John Theobald. So, there is no verification that it is John Baldwin Theobald who married Sarah Potter (though, he could easily have lied and been a bigamist).
Cheers again
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Hi kazzablues1, and welcome to RootsChat and the NZ Board,
It's great to see people make a family connection. ;D
You mentioned Castlepoint Station in your post above. I'm not sure, but I think it's still operating. It's a far drive east from Masterton towards the coast.
If I read the topic correctly no noe has been able to find a death record for John THEOBALD/THEOBOLD. The NZ Society of Genealogists years ago published microfiche of BD & M records and he might appear in those. Otherwise the Masterton Library and The NZ Society of Genealogists would be good places to start.
Spades
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Hi Spades!
I've been through microfiche in past years, and looked at the indexes online for a death, but absolutely nothing. Though the lady I mentioned before down at our local history centre used to be a professional genealogist, from NZ, and she said if there was nobody left behind from his family, a death certificate may not have been issued. She also said the NZ records are very incomplete online and on the microfiche. sigh....
I had been in touch with the lady who sent me the photo of the Cemetery plaque and she talked about it with the 'librarian' (I think) from the Masterton FHS, and he just came up with the same Theobald family, the William and Hannah, who, I totally believe, are no connection whatsoever.
I think John B Theobald was just a fairlynew 'blow in', he had left all his family behind in England - they were all grown anyway, or died - so maybe he was just looking for a new life, bigger money.
The gene lady I speak to said he would have seen ads in England about going to NZ as shearers, etc for the chance of a better life. It really sounds like thats the story.
No record of a death for John Baldwin Theobald in England either, but somebody put the notice in the paper about his death and knew enough about him, to know that he came from Freshwater!
I am really hoping the book may give some insight into it.
Thanks for replying!
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Just got my book on Castle Point in, and it was interesting to note, that the owner of Castle Point station at the time john Baldwin Theobald was there was Thomas Guthrie who was born on the Isle of Wight.
That made me curious, so I did a bit of searching, and found Thomas and Ann Guthrie had their first child Ann (all mentioned in the book), in Freshwater, where John Theobald was born!
Now, Thomas was about 4 or 5 years younger than John, but I'm thinking they may have been friends, and Thomas offered employment to John in Nz in the 1860s.