RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: SMcDermid on Tuesday 25 January 11 22:28 GMT (UK)
-
I was having a hard time tracking down my great grandmother (on my father's side), her name was Mary Ellen, but I couldn't find a maiden name.
Finally, I came across a death report, not an obituary, but something the doctor filled out, about the cause of death and the date and time, that kind of thing.
It listed her surname as "Braw", and that she was born in Wales (doesn't say where, just Wales). She was born around 1877, and came to Canada when she was 7 years old.
I've hit a brick wall now, I can't find any info on this "Braw" surname, and I was wondering if anyone here could help me out with any info about this particular surname?
-
Was Braw her maiden name or married name?
I'd try searching for variants. When I have punched in "Braw" and asked for variants it has come up with things as varied as Bray, Brawn, Braund, Brain. Can you scan that part of the document that has the name on and put in on here for another interpretation?
-
Braw was the maiden name. I was wondering about variants, I've seen the name "Bray" come up sometimes when I search, so I wondered if maybe the doctor just wrote it how he thought it sounded or something like that.
Is Braw a surname that is somewhat common in Wales, or should I assume that was a mistake?
I'll see if I can get the document scanned, and I can post it here.
She passed away in Canada, and like I say, all the doctor put on this document was that she was born in Wales, would have been nice if he would have included whereabouts in Wales, but unfortunately he didn't.
Thanks for the response Corinne. :)
-
given how seldom the surname appears on FreeBmd, (apart from march qtr 1843 so that looks like mistranscription ), I'd go for Braw being an error.
What info do you have on her? When was she born? Can you access her marriage details?
-
Hi
I've checked the Canadian 1891 and 1901 censuses but can't find a Mary b. Wales circa 1877 who has a surname resembling Braw. The nearest that I've come to it is Braugh but born England.
Could you give more details of her location, marriage date and married name, please?
JL
-
I don't have a lot of info on her. She died when my grandfather was quite young, so he didn't remember much about her.
Here's what I have:
supposedly born in April 1877 in Wales. She came to Canada in 1884.
She married William McDermid (my great grandfather), I believe they married in Ancaster, Ontario, Canada. I'm not sure about the year.
In 1899 the family moved to Saskatchewan, Canada, settling in Weyburn. William went back and forth for the next few years between Saskatchewan and Ontario for work, but as far as I know, Mary Ellen stayed in Weyburn.
In some of the censuses, she appears as Minnie E McDermid, and sometimes the surname is spelled McDermott. Some of them list her being born in Ontario, Canada. But like I say, the document that the doctor did up when she died said she was born in Wales.
They had four children, Stuart, Annie, Jessie, and Hugh (my grandfather).
Mary Ellen died on June 26, 1919 in Weyburn, Saskatchewan. I've got the name of the cemetery and plot number, but I'll have to find it.
Thanks for your help, guys. :)
-
I've just been looking at surname distribution and I think it confirms to me that BRAW is so uncommon it may well be an error. That being the case I would probably go for either something that sounds a bit like it, or could look like it when written. I also checked Braugh, Braun, Braund and there are pretty much no incidence of these in Wales in the 1881 census, assuming that the Wales part is right. On the other hand there are quite a lot of BRAIN (around 200 in Wales on 1881 census) around the time your Mary Ellen was born. If you look at it written it is possible to misread "in" for "w".
It is very much random fishing though, and it would be good to get something a bit more concrete to go on. If you could actually get a copy of the original document with the handwritten "Braw" on it then that could be examined a bit closer. Also if you could find an immigration record to know exactly where she came from, and with whom that could narrow things down. Family stories aren't always totally reliable about where people came from - my grandfather swore his family were cockney through and through and that put me off the trail for years until I confirmed that actually his father and then another 10 generations before him came from Hertfordshire!
The other thing I'd do if I were you would be to very critically go through all the information you have from your grandfather back and check it, going back to primary sources if you can (not transcriptions or just indexes). If you start by assuming that you HAVE made a mistake somewhere and try desperately to find it, then either you will find an error, or the exercise will prove to yourself that all the information is correct so far.
-
I've got a photocopy of the actual Registration of Death Record, it's all handwritten by the doctor. That's about the only info I have on her.
In the spot where it says father's name, it just says Braw, that's where I got that from. I'm looking at it right now, and I'm pretty sure it's a W at the end. It says she was a housewife, and the doctor's W on housewife looks just like the one at the end of the name, so I'm pretty sure it does say Braw.
The weird thing is, in the two censuses that I found for her (from 1906 and 1916), where I'm sure that it's actually her, one says that she was born in Ontario, Canada, and the other says she was born in England. So I'm not sure if Wales is even right, maybe she was from England.
The unfortunate thing is, I really don't have much info from my family. Mary Ellen died when my grandfather was 4, so he didn't know her, and he actually died the same year I was born, so I never had a chance to talk to him about any of this.
My grandmother says he never really talked about his parents much, so she hasn't been able to tell me much about them either.
The death record came from a researcher that I got in touch with in Weyburn, Saskatchewan, where Mary Ellen died. She sent me some information, although most of it is about Mary's husband, William McDermid.
I want to thank you guys for your help. I know that it's hard to come up with much when I don't have a whole lot of information to go by, but the main thing I wanted to see was if Braw was a common name in Wales. Since it doesn't sound like it is, I'm thinking there's been a mistake somewhere, either in the surname, or about her being born in Wales.
-
if you could find her marriage details, would that give you any info on her father?
-
I think it would. I just haven't been able to find anything. I know that she married William McDermid in Ontario, they were already married when they moved to Western Canada.
-
Hi again
Have I got the correct family in 1911:
In Regina (district #214 Sub district 47), she (as Mary Ellen Mcdermott) is down as being born May 1875 in England and of (possibly) Scottish origin and immigrated in 1910. The husband and children's names match your info.
The image is very poor :-\
JL
added - the 1916 one has less info but has her as English rather than Scottish
-
Yes, I think that's the right one. I've got that saved to her profile on Ancestry.ca. The last name is spelled wrong, but everything else seems to match.
That one says England, and the 1916 one, where they have her as Minnie E, lists her being born in Canada, so I'm wondering if the part on the death record about Wales might have been wrong.
-
The first child (Ellen Jessie) appears to be born circa 1900 but I can't find any other info on her or their marriage in Ontario.
I've drawn this thread to the attention of some of the Canadian researchers who are really good so hopefully they might find something for you.
JL
-
Just a thought, but could there be a connection with the town of Wales, Ontario, which was flooded in 1958 for the creation of the St Lawrence seaway? :)
-
Could be. I hadn't even thought of that. I wasn't even aware that there had been a Wales, Ontario. :)
However, the death record, that said she was born in Wales, said she had lived in Canada for 35 years, but listed her age at the time she died as 42 years, 2 months. So at least according to the doctor that filled it out, it would seem that she had come to Canada as a child.
I'm starting to think that might be wrong though, or that maybe it should have been England instead of Wales.
You guys have been so helpful, I just hope it doesn't turn out that I've wasted everyone's time on this.
-
Just a thought, when I see children coming to Canada with little no information, I think of Home Children. I checked the Home Children database at Library and Archives Canada, there is a Minnie Bray, age 9 coming to Canada in 1886 and headed for Hamilton, Ontario (which is beside Ancaster).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bjk/
Karen
-
There might be something to that. In one of the Canadian censuses, she showed up as Minnie E.
At the risk of sounding stupid, what are Home Children?
-
Here is William in 1901 in Portage La Prarie, Manitoba. He's born Ontario with correct birthdate of April 6, 1874. He's not married.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=64402&highlight=30
Then, there is a Minnie Bray in Ancaster, Ontario, who is a domestic.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=109196&highlight=33
K
-
At the risk of sounding stupid, what are Home Children?
Between 1860 and 1930 over 100,000 children were sent to Canada and they were called "British Home Children".
2010 was the year of the Home Child in Canada.
Karen
-
Aha! William McDermid and Mary Ellen Bray married in Westborne, Manitoba in 1905
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/DetailView.php
Karen
-
In the 1881 England Census there is a Minnie Bray living in Gwennap, Cornwall born 1876 living with her grandmother :-\
There's also a Mary Ellen Bray born JFM 1876 in Redruth, Cornwall, Vol 5c, Page 252
Karen
-
Hi Karen :)
I knew you'd come up trumps!
Your 1901 Minnie in Ancaster is down as born May 1878 - which is the same month as the 1911 one. The 1911 is such a poor image that 1875 and 1878 might be confused :-\
Sadly, the Gwennap Minnie is still with her mother in Cornwall on the 1891, when Sean's grt grandmother was supposedly in Canada.
I've found a Mary J Bray, aged 4, b. Victoria, Australia, in Gwennap living with with grandmother and parents Tom and Nancy (RG11/2329/39/22) but with her mother in Gwennap in 1891.
Also a Mary E Bray , aged 2, b. Falmouth, in Falmouth living with parents John H and Sarah A (RG11/2316/88/46). This one not easliy identifiable in 1891.
There are also a few other Mary (E) Bray born around the approx. time in other English counties but none that are a good match in Wales
I'm having problems getting your Manitoba marriage info to load. I'm assuming it didn't give parents details :-\
JL
-
Not sure about this but will throw it into the pot:
I've found a Mary Ellen Bray, arriving Montreal Nov 1903 aboard the Parisian (departed Liverpool). Heading for BC. She was 22 (so born circa 1881) and from Cornwall but is ticked as 'a wife'
:-\
JL
-
Here's another link to the marriage, hopefully that one will work
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/ListView.php
K
-
William Stuart McDermid's birth registration is on the Sask. Vital Statistics Page showing William McDermid and Mary Ellen Bray as parents. He was born March 1, 1906, Weyburn.
http://www.isc.ca/VitalStatistics/Genealogy/vsgs_srch.aspx
-
That sounds like the right Stuart, it matches the dates that I have, and from what I've heard, the family moved to Saskatchewan from Ontario in 1899, so that would fit.
I thought they had married prior to 1899, in Ontario, but it seems that back then, the first child usually came about a year after the marriage. I've got conflicting dates with one of the other children, Jessie Ellen, some things say she was born in 1900, others in 1910, but from everything I've come across, I think it was 1910, so that would make Stuart the first child.
KarenM, and everyone else on here, thank you so much for your help! I was about to give up on this part of the family, and when I saw the Wales section on here, I thought I'd give it one last try. You guys have been so helpful. :)
-
Here is a link for one of the many sites relating to British Home Children: http://britishhomechildren.org/
Basically it is child migration schemes where impoverished children in Britain were sent abroad for a new life. Many went to Canada, but also many went to Australia and New Zealand. Some did end up having much better chances in life - others were treated as no better than slaves. This kind of child migration scheme started a very long time ago, and continued to as late as the 1960's.
-
On the Canada Resources Board, we have a thread with alot of great information and links to Home Children.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355348.0.html
Karen
-
Well done Karen, I also imagined she might have been a home child as I read through page 1... was locked out so waited to see what was here, good thing I waited...
On the same ship as Minnie E. there is also an Anne age. She may well be a red herring, as brothers and sisters weren't always lucky enough to travel together or even to live in the same Province as siblings.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=23908
The children's houses isn't a term I've heard as a location, but part of a workhouse setting...
The other children immigrating as Bray...several of them could be family ( or none)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bk8/
added:
I found a Mary Ellen Bray in a workhouse, and nearly jumped out of my seat, but she was 9 in 1881 so too old and Totnes, Devon...but this is a great resource for finding home children in workhouses on census http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
-
There were 2 Minnie Bay born Gwennap, Cornwall ...one living with grandfather Richard
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_2350496
also one living with Grandmother and an aunt
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_2350885
Not sure which one was followed through...
also because I found it, and there is already an adopted child on the list, nor does she match family criteria...in case she is found to be born Ontario...
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_730091
1891 she is crossed out as daughter and I am not sure what is coded in instead
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=1619173
-
I think ordering that marriage would be the best way to go to confirm parent's names, although if a home child or adopted, they don't always know or put down the real information if anything...
-
I have to run, can you look into this place?
On 9 July 1869, Stephenson opened the doors of number 8 Church Street in London as a safe place for young people. In contrast to the notorious workhouses of the day, this was to be a place where children would be treated with love, respect and affection. It was called The Children’s Home.
Need to add that to my resource info as I hadn't found this before...
http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=opentoworld.content&cmid=2694
Hopefully they have some records?
http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=contact.content&cmid=667
-
Wait...there were many more branches, that was just the first one, only used until 1871
I see now it became what's now known as the National Children's Homes ( NCH)
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/info.php?p=9
Need to find the Reception branch in Hamilton, Ontario! Here is a photo
http://www.hamiltonpostcards.com/images/nationalchildrenshomeLayer1.jpg
a timeline makes the locations easier to find ( if complete?)
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/info.php?p=13&pno=0
1871 - The Lambeth home is given approval by the Wesleyan Methodist Conference and moves (?) Bonner Road.
1872 - A second home is opened in Edgworth, Lancashire - a rural location
1873 - The Home's emigration scheme begins with the departure of the first party of children to Canada. Reception branch in Hamilton, Ontario is opened
1875 - The Home takes on the management of an Industrial School at Milton, Gravesend
1878 - Training of women in child care begins - the 'Sisterhood' is established
1880 - The Home takes over the management of a children's refuge in Ramsey on the Isle of Man
1882 - Princess Alice Orphanage opens in Birmingham. The Donor stipulates that home must be for orphans only. The Children's Home becomes the Children's Home and Orphanage
1887 - Alverstoke in Hampshire opens as a convalescent home for children- this one probably too late if she's headed to Canada then...
-
Ah, just found this: National Children's Home Register which was returned to the United Kingdom following the closure of the Hamilton Home in 1934. Location was 1080 Main St. East Barton Township
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Qs3uIWGetJAC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137#v=onepage&q&f=false
Where you can write for inquiries:Now called
Action for Children
85 Highbury Park
London U.K. N5 1UD
Records are under this classification
L1 Canada; includes registers, 1873-1931, which provide details and progress reports of the children who were emigrated to Canada
Not sure if they will accept inquiries by email but here is the website
http://www.actionforchildren.org.uk/content/72/Contact-us