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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: grandma on Monday 24 January 11 16:39 GMT (UK)
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Need a helping hand again.
I found a Marion Weir, 20 on the 1841 census living with a Helen Nainsmith 65 and Helen Craig, age 7. I have reason to believe Marion and Helen are half sisters. Helen Craigs mother, possibly Ellen Weir, father George Craig
Perhaps Helen Nainsmith is the grandmother of these 2
I found a marriage for a Marion Weir, Hamilton parish and Thomas Wilson, Bothwell parish 22 jan. 1843.
Have searched for more info re Marion and Thomas, thought I had them in Bothwell 1851 but ages dont tally.. Could some kind soul have a look for these 2. Tried later census with no result.
Thanks in advance.
Mary
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When calculating ages - have you taken into account that ages from 16 upwards were rounded down to the nearest 5yrs in 1841
Marion could be up to 24yrs old and Helen snr 69
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Yes, I took this in to consideration. The Marion I found in 1851 was 27.
Mary
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I've only done basic searches on SP so am not that familiar with it
Can you search for Wilson births with Marion Weir and Thomas Wilson as the parents?
With at least the name and birthplace of one child - it may help find the right 1851/61 census entry
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Will give it a try.
Mary
PS Doesn`t work that way.
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Still trying to find the connection between Helen Craig and Marion Weir and Helen Naismith.
Have Helen Naismith, b Nov 20,1774, parents Thomas Naismith and Marion Craig, Helen Naismith, m Robert Weir,Nov 18 1798.
Found 2 daughters Grace Weir b. DEc 28 1817 and Marion Weir b. Aug 13 1815
Had Helen Naismith and Robert Weir, possibly a daughter Helen?
Have a m. between a Helen Weir and George Craig, May 23 1830. They had a daughter Helen b.Aug 10 1833
Is this the Helen, age 7 living with Marion Weir and Helen Naismith?
I believe George Craig and Helen Weir died, Helen Craig living with her garandmother Helen Naismith.
Can anybody help me clear up this mystery?
Thanks,
Mary
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Just thinking again, The Marion Weir on the 1841 census could be a cousin of Helen Craig not a half sister as I first said.
Mary
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Still trying to sort out this family.
I have from before a marriage between a Marion Wilson 21, and a Robert Hendry, 1874. Marion`s parents are Robert Wilson and Helen Weir.Who does Helen Weir belong to
Helen Naismith and Robert Weir had Grace Weir who m. Alexander Thomson,1854 and Marion Weir m. Thomas Wilson, 1843.
My head is spinning trying to sort out these people. Any ideas??
Mary
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Robert Hendry and Marion - 1881 census shows her b 1854 Hamilton
Marion`s parents are Robert Wilson and Helen Weir
No 1861 entry with those parents. The only Marion b Hamilton is indexed as WALSON with parents William & Helen Ballantine Walson
In 1871 - Marion is aged 20 b Hamilton and living with Robert Hendy (Hendry) as his housekeeper
This gives another birthyear 1851 instead of 1853/54
Basic search on SP gives 2 matches for Helen Weir marrying a Wilson between 1845-1854 - both in Lanarkshire
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Thanks for replying
This is all very confusing with these names.
The Marion Weir on the 1841 census m. a Thomas Wilson 1843.( Her parents were Helen Naismith and Robert Weir)
Who is the Marion Wilson(parents Robert Wilson and Helen Weir) who m. in 1874.
I`m struggling to find any connection and these names are driving me nuts!!
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Have you checked the 2 marriages I mentioned above
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Hi Carole.
Yes I`ve checked those marriages. Not mine. Just can`t seem to get these people straightened out. I`m sure there are connections somewhere but just can`t find them. Have searched both OPR and from 1855.
Guess I`ll just have to let this drop for the time being. It bugs me though!!
Thanks for trying to solve this. I do appreciate your help.
Mary
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Hi Mary,
I think you're on the right track with Robert Weir and Helen Naismith. It looks likely that they are the parents of Helen/Ellen Weir who married your George Craig. Her birth/baptism is missing, but that's not really unusual for the time period. :)
As for Marion Weir, I think you're heading to the New World for them! A John Wilson, born c. 1844 in Scotland, married an Emma Westbrook on the 27th December 1891 in Algona, Kossuth, Iowa. He gave his parents as Thomas Wilson and Marion Weir.
I think I have found them in the 1860 U.S. census. All b. Scotland except where noted.
Address: Frostburg, Allegany, Maryland
Thomas Wilson, 35, miner
Marian Wilson, 34
John Wilson, 16, miner
Jannet Wilson, 14
James Wilson, 11
Christena Wilson, 8
Thomas Wilson, 6, b. Maryland
Marian Wilson, 2, b. Maryland
Agnes Wilson, 2 months, b. Maryland
hume :)
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Hi Hume.
Thank you so much for looking into this. I`d just about given up.
The George Craig who married Ellen Weir is my gr gr grandfather and I wanted to find how they were all connected. There are several trees on Ancestry with Helen Naismith but havn`t tried to contact them
Will study this and get back to you. Must have a look on Ancestry they could be there.
Thanks so very much Hume, I do appreciate this.
Mary
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Hi Hume.
Think I found them travelling to the US. Arr. 8 June 1852, Philadelphia,
on Zions Hope..
Thomas Wilson 29
Mrs. Wilson 27
John, 8
Jessie, 6
James, 2.
Then it was cut off and couldn`t see the next name. Darn!!
Wonder if I`ve got the right family. Will keep looking.
Mary
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Hi Hume.
I don`t think we have the correct Marion Weir. The ages just don`t tally.
My Marion was b. 1815. Lawfull daughter of Helen Naismith and Robert Weir.
I am confused!!..
Mary
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Hi Mary,
That is something I had missed. :-X It isn't too unusual to imagine there being a second child named Marion though. A lot of children did die in infancy and I can see Helen wanting to keep her mother's name in the family. However, you're right, it would be need to be confirmed before going any further.
The problem is the Wilsons (if we have the right family) should be on the 1851 census in Scotland (or at the very least Great Britain). This would confirm a lot of the birthplaces etc for the family, but they don't seem to be anywhere!
hume
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Hi Hume.
I found the Wilsons on the 1851 census Thomas , 28,Mare**? 27, John 7 ,Jessie 6, and James 1, Hamilton. Didn`t think they were mine because of the age of Marion.
Mary
The census was in Bothwell Holytown.
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Hi Mary,
Thanks for that. I now see you did mention that earlier! :-[
I think you are perhaps right we are on the wrong track with this Marion. Now looking at it, there was not a Robert and/or Helen in that Marion's children's names. Also there is the problem with the age as well. I notice there is another Marion Weir (15) in Hamilton on the 1841 census.
It did look good at first glance! :'(
hume
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Thanks Hume.
I think we are on the wrong track, as you say,
they havn`t followed the naming pattern.
Just wonder how many Marion Weirs there are out there. It`s all very confusing.
Thanks again for trying to clear up this mystery.
Mary
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Hi Mary,
There are quite a few, aren't there? Weir is quite the popular name in Lanarkshire. ;D
I did have a thought that Marion could be known under her maiden name in 1841, like her mother Helen. So we would be looking for a marriage before 1841.
There is a Marion Weir marrying an Abraham Hamilton in 1840, Hamilton. No children showing on the IGI. Trouble is, they do appear in the 1841 census together. However, it's not the first time someone has been recorded twice on a census! I'm also willing to overlook the Mary/Marion variant too. ;)
Address: Leechlee Street, Hamilton
Abraham Hamilton, m, 20, ag. lab., b. in county
Mary Hamilton, f, 20, -, b. in county
More problems follow. :-\ I believe Marion must have died between 1841 and 1846, because there is a marriage between an Abraham Hamilton and a Margaret Forrest in 1846 Hamilton. Here they are in the 1851 census:
Address: Fairholm Gate, Hamilton
Abraham Hamilton, head, m, 31, sawier [sic], b. Hamilton
Margret [sic] Hamilton, wife, f, 31, -, b. Blantyre
Helen Hamilton, dau., f, 4, -, b. Hamilton
Ann Hamilton, dau., f, 2, -, b. Hamilton
Thomas Hamilton, son, m, 4 months, -, b. Hamilton
Just all conjecture work, Mary, and nothing at all concrete. It would be nice if there was some clues on the OPR entries though. It's a real nuisance as well there's no pre-1855 death records extant for Hamilton parish either. >:(
hume
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Hi Hume.
No; I didn`t realize there were so many Weirs out there. Almost as bad as looking for my Craig bunch.
I think we`ve just about exausted all the opportunities there are in looking for a connection between Marion Weir and Helen Craig.
I`m inclined to believe that Marion Weir is a grandaughter of Helen Naismith. Helen was b Nov. 1774 which would make her 67 in 1841. Though just who her (Marion) parents are is another puzzle, perhaps a son of Helen Naismith Weir. I have looked on the OPR to no avail. It would make Helen Craig and Marion Weir cousins.
Just to confuse things, Helen Craig`s half brother is just down the street, living with, I believe, a grandmother.
Thanks once again for your help.
Mary
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Hi Mary,
I don't know how much you're using to using the Scotland census records, but I find that you have to allow for "generic" ages. What I mean is that sometimes the record states a decade instead of an age. For example, an age of 20 could be anything from 20 to 29 where an age of 30 could be from 30 to 39.
So, in 1841, Marion Weir, Helen Naismith's daughter, was about 25 or 26, which certainly could have been recorded as age 20 on the census. So, it seems to me pretty clear that the Marion Weir on the 1841 census is the daughter of Helen Naismith.
In regard to that, we know that Robert Weir and Helen Naismith published marriage banns on 11 Nov 1798 in Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland.
We also know that there are birth records for:
Marion (1815)
Grace (1817)
Assuming that your birth record of 20 Nov 1774 for Helen Naismith is correct, and she was daughter of Thomas Naismith and Marion Craig, Helen would have been 43 years old when Grace was born. It is doubtful that Robert and Helen had any more children after Grace. It also seems likely that there were more siblings, maybe several (including Helen who married George Craig).
Also, the Marion Weir who married Thomas Wilson was the daughter of James Weir and Janet/Jeanette Reston. I haven't been able to verify that your marriage record for Grace is correct, either. It is possible that she was married before 1841, or was not even alive at that time. She would have been age 23.
Brian
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Hi Brian.
Thanks for your reply..it`s early morning here and have just skimmed through all that has been written on this thread. Must study it again, a few weeks since I started it, so will go through all my papers again.
Regards ,
Mary
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Hi Brian.
I`m trying to make sense of all this info. In other words there are 2 Marion Weir, 1. a daughter of Robert Weir and Helen Naismith and 2. a daughter of James Weir and Janet Weston.
As far as Grace Weir, b Dec 28 1817, is concerned, she was the lawfull daughter of Robert Weir and Helen Naismith.
Who the parents of the Grace Weir, who m. Alexander Thomas, Aug. 8 1854 can be questioned.
I have all the cert. taken from the OPR but unfortunatly dont give all the info. which would clear this up.
I`m still in the dark unfortunatly.
Mary
Regarding ages in the 1841 census. Enumerators rounded DOWN to the nearst 5 years
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Hi Mary,
I noticed that you mentioned that enumerators rounded down to the nearest 5 years. From what I have seen, that is generally true. I have studied many census records and found that it isn't 100% true that the recorded ages are within this time frame. These may be because people lied about their age or because another family member answered for them in error. I still believe that occasionally the enumerators rounded down to the nearest 10 years.
A thought for you.. A Grace Weir married James Christie on 7 Apr 1833. I would suggest that this was Helen Naismith's daughter (I am not the only one to conclude this).
Also, I wanted to comment that in 1841 there is a Helen Weir in the census with three children: Helen, Robert, and Jean. This is probably Robert Weir's wife Helen MacKie. This is possibly (or maybe not) a record of Robert and Helen's daughter-in-law and grandchildren.
On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that someone married at age 24 (Helen Naismith) and having a children at age 41 and 43 wasn't having children from age 25. It is not unlikely to assume that births occurred every two to three years which would leave us with 5 to 7 additional children (other than Grace and Marion). It also seems likely (in that age) that some did not survive to adulthood. So, taking all that into account, there may be 2 to 5 additional children (one of them being the Helen who married George Craig). There are many marriage records for Weirs in Hamilton before 1840, and I suspect if someone wants to sift through all the families, they might find other siblings.
Brian
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I quite agree there was possibly children born to Helen Naismith Weir between her marriage in 1798 and her daughter Marion`s birth in 1815. So far I`ve not found any, tho I`m sure they`re out there.
The Robert Weir you mentioned, did you find him on the OPR?
It was only because of finding the census with Helen Craig, living with Helen Naismith that I started searching this family of Weir`s. Then finding a Marion Weir who m. another family member, got me going. If you have more info I`d be pleased to recieve it.
Mary