RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: gnikdivad on Friday 21 January 11 13:43 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
My Grandfather fought in WW1 in the British Army. He was shot in 1918 and after discharge in 1919 he cam back to Dublin. He lived in Churchtown in the ex-service men houses on Lower Churchtown Road (still our family home)
What I was wondering was how would I find out about his process for getting the house, how much rent he paid, how much my nanny had to pay for it in 1954 after he passed away.
If any of you can help point me in the right direction it would be amazing
Hope someone can help
David
-
There's lots available online although you'd need to read through the various sites to see if there are answers to your questions. Googling "Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust" brings up lots-
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a917593418~db=all~jumptype=rss
The National Archives seem to have tenancy files and other documents-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/irish-genealogy.htm
A fairly recent mention-
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wms/?id=2006-02-27b.5WS.2
-
That's great thanks for that!!! Does anyone know if I would be able to get my hands on the actual records for the house instead of just a general idea of what was paid from a third party article.
-
If you go to National Archives link I posted earlier and click on the AP 7 link (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=808&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=AP+7) you'll see the catalogue description. It sounds as though you need to search by address (which you have) rather than tenant's name.
-
Thanks again!! I'm pretty new to all this family history and I am loving it!! Would it be possible that these records are available in ireland or just at kew?
-
According to the link- "Held by The National Archives, Kew"
-
Thank you aghadowey, you are a great help...
Thank you so much
-
Hi gnikdivad,my greatgrandfather was given one of those houses on lwr churchtown road too, sadly it was sold a while back but I am curious to know how you got on with finding any records? I had a look at the ancestry.co.uk site but I couldnt figure out how to search actual records. We cannot trace my Greatgrandfathers war history, we dont know where the medals are so we dont have a regiment number either. We reckon the sailors and soldiers trust is our best bet. Any info would be much appreciated.
Maria
-
Hi gnikdivad,my greatgrandfather was given one of those houses on lwr churchtown road too, sadly it was sold a while back but I am curious to know how you got on with finding any records? I had a look at the ancestry.co.uk site but I couldnt figure out how to search actual records. We cannot trace my Greatgrandfathers war history, we dont know where the medals are so we dont have a regiment number either. We reckon the sailors and soldiers trust is our best bet. Any info would be much appreciated.
Maria
Dear Maria
I have come across some info which might be of use to you. If you go to the National Archives link
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=808&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=AP+7&j=1
You will se the catalogue description. Click the browse from here link and then click AP7 floder icon to expand the file for a description of what is contained in the archives. You might well find something of use in there, although there is not a lot on the Churchtown houses. I ordered the photo of the Churchtown houses from the archives that was taken just after they were built, and by a huge stroke of luck my house was actually in it.. What number house was your Great Granddads? My family have lived there from the start so I might know the family name!
If you like I can send you a copy of the photo to save you ordering it form London (just private message me with your email address) There are some articles available online about the trust that might be worth a read. I also plan to search our own national archives for some info, there must be something there!
As for his military service, a fantastic website is http://www.fourteeneighteen.co.uk/
I used them to track my granddads service and they did an amazing job. I did have his service number and his date of discharge which is more then what you have, however the are amazing group of researchers and the will work with you to help narrow it down for you, it is a cheap service too, well worth a look. They will be doing another one for me soon on my great uncle, (who no one in my family even new existed until i started this family history, he was killed in 1918 in France) So maybe mention my name when applying, (David King) we might get a discount lol.
You may already know but only about 25% of the ww1 service records survive but there are other ways by which to find stuff out.
Ok I am rambling now, I hope that was of some help to you, dont hesitate to cantact me id you think I can be of more help.
-
David, I was so delighted to get your reply! I think you may remember my family, my GreatGrandfather sadly died young around 1937, but my mother her twin and brother grew up there, do you remember the o'connors, 18 lwr churchtown road? I am off to have a look at your links now, and I will let you know how things are going :D
-
Hi geonel & others, we are the current residents of 20 Lower Churchtown road and I do know quite a no. of other residents on the road. Many years ago the original inhabitant of our house did pay us a visit but unfortunately I never did keep a record of the man's name. I'd be very interested in compiling any info. others can provide on early history of the road.
-
Great to hear from you Shemalier, my ggrandad and grandad lived in 18! The Meighans lived next door, does that ring a bell?
-
We still live in 39 the kings. My grandad was the first owner of the house:-) it's great working out the history of how they got it, hard work though.
-
Hi David! I just emailed you! Yes Shemalier my ggranddad was the original owner of no.18 , he was originally from Cork, we are having terrible trouble unearthing his military records as we dont have his regimental number, my mother grew up there.
-
I have some details for Lwr Churchtown householders from Thom's directories that fit with some of the details being mentioned here... since they are quite recent I'll pass them on by Personal Message.
p.s. Shelmalier, needs two more posts before full access to the PM system will be available
Shane
-
Thank you shane, I look forward to that!
Shemalier the spelling is Meagan, not Meighan as I said originally.
-
I do vaguely remember Mr. Meagan. We're there since 1993 and Mr. Meagan sold the house in 1997 to the current residents who we know well. I understand he was born in no. 17 and his parents were the first residents. Did your family sell to the current owner of no. 18 then?
-
Yes, I know her name alright will send private message, it was in or around 1998, I passed by some time ago and saw new windows and the garden is now a driveway, my Granny used to grow lupins in the border around the grass at the front, do you remember my granny and grandad? Nellie and George O'Connor? My mam has loads of info on the residents of your house and she is phoning me later.
-
That would be great if she did have any info. on no. 20 I do remember your grandparents when we first moved there but although we bought the house in 1993 we lived abroad from 1995-1998 so we wouldn't have known them very well. Your mother & your grand parents would have known the Coffeys (our neighbours then) well. Sadly both Mr. & Mrs. Coffey have both died; Mrs. Coffey only this year.
-
We heard that, very sad, I remember her very very well, she was very good to my grandparents, I couldnt believe it when I heard the news. My gran died Sept 1997 and Grandad Dec 1997. I have wonderful memories of staying on 'sleepovers' there as a child in the 70's and 80's, my Mam was born 1948 and has a twin sister she would know a lot of the history, as soon as she rings I will fill you in.
-
Just be careful not to mention details of living people - it's not allowed on RootsChat
Dublin Moderator
-
Thanks. That thought did occur to me but I'm glad you mentioned it.
-
Mrs. Coffey was such a nice lady always smiling! I remember being a kid and mr coffey used to deliver coal to use up the road! He was always filthy. Him and my nanny where great friends.
Hi Maria, I got your email. I forget did I send you the pic from 1926 of the houses?
-
Oh and welcome shemalier! I can send you the picture also if you like.
-
Hi,
I have just seen your posting re. Doyles/Denbeys Ballaghkeen Co. Wexford. The Robert Denby you write about is I think is my Grandfather Thomas`s brother, for I believe the James Denbeigh and Bridget Redmond of 61 Ross Rd are my Great Grandparents. My Grandfather Thomas lodged with Bridget`s Best man Thomas Murphy in No. 14/15 Ross Rd according to the 1901 Census. You may already have the following, the 1901 Census shows residence of house No. 9 Ballymurray Wexford, to be Catherine Denbeigh- married, William Doyle-Single-age shown as 34-Brother of Catherine, Bridget Denbeigh-age shown as 11- Niece of William, and Margaret Graham-age shown as 77- Aunt of William and Catherine. Ballymurray is part of Ballaghkeen I believe
Hoping to hear from you,
Thomas Denby
-
Dear Thomas,
Hi, great to hear from you. Always great to hear from possible connections.
P So you think Robert Denby from my tree is your great uncle? Robert was born on the 18th of Oct 1868 on Ross road, enniscorthy, Wexford. He was married to Catherine (Kate) Doyle on 24 June 1888, in the Roman CAtholic chapel in Oulart, Wexford.
Robert is my great great grandfather. My nanny, Alice King nee:Doyle was from the ballagh. Her mother was Bridget Denby, daughter of Robert and Catherine. Robert and Catherine also had a son called James Denby b. approx 1904. Robert and Catherine also had a son called James Denby.
From my research Robert had a brother called Henery also, does this match with you? There is also a feeling that Robert was Protestant, does that ring a bell? Roberts father was James Denby (Denbeigh) born 1843 in Wexford. He married Bridget Redmond on 10 sept 1867 in the Parish of st Mary's. best man was John Courtney and bridesmaid was Margaret Murphy. From what I can figure out Roberts father was Henry Denby.
Roberts wife, Catherine father was Francis Doyle and her mother was Catherine Graham (I think). Catherine also had at least one brother called William Doyle.
To be honest with you the information you have supplied is a bang in match for my family tree. This is exciting :-)
I would love to hear all you know and I will tell you all I know. I am in Dublin. Where are you? If you send me a private message I can send you my email address and we can chat some more.
Really looking forward to hearing from you.
David.
-
Hi all, I am writing a thesis on my own family's genealogy & have discovered that my great grandfather also got an army cottage in 16 Churchtown Great. He was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers from 1915-1918. His name was James Joseph Pidgeon. I was wondering if any of you have any information on these houses. I read that a member David has a photo of when the houses where 1st built. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Kind Regards Keith Pidgeon.
-
Hi Keith, yes I certainly do have a picture. I got it from kew. I can email a copy of it to you if you like. Your surname really rings a bell with me. I must ask my mam, I'm pretty sure she will know some of your family!
I'd love to help you in anyway I can so send me a private message and we can chat further.
David.
-
Hi David, I was trying to send you a private message but apparently I have to comment on three threads to prove that I am not spam before I can send a message. I'm just looking for some leads for genealogy. Keith
-
Hi does anyone know if his organisation is still in existence ?. I'm having problems trying to sort out my aunts title to the freehold of her house in Dublin as she can't find the deeds and looking at the land registry it says this organisation owns the freehold and she owns a 99 year lease. We thought this organisation was wound up, so how could they still own it ?
Any help greatly appreciated as this is holding up her move to a care home (which sounds awful but it is what she wants).
-
Have a look at this Citizens advice site. your aunt has a 99 year leasehold interest in the property. She probably paid ground rent to a ground landlord...maybe she has not had a demand in years. Investigate the possibility of purchasing the ground rent. Maybe she did this in 1978 ( as many of us did) and never registered the vesting certificate...try to jog her memory.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/ground_rent.html
I am not up to speed on present day arrangements but, it can be simple enough and you won't need a solicitor.
I just saw where you cannot locate the deeds. Did she have a loan from a Building Society if so they would have held the deeds and she may have forgotten to retrieve them when the purchase was finalised.
-
Hi Ourgang, what a great name !...what I have so far is that there was a mortgage taken out in 1957 between irish permanent and my grandmother/mum this I presume was to pay for the lease (so maybe this is why they never paid ground rent, as they paid a lump sum up front ?), then in 1973 mum's came off a she was in the uk and my aunts name went on to the lease as she had come home for good. Then there are letters between her solicitor and irish perm around 1977 in which title deeds are mentioned and then another lot in a similar vein in 1982.
I've been over and went to land registry and registry of deeds and all they have is the lease. I can only think you may be right in that it wasn't registered and has been lost. I can see on your link that you can go through a process to do an affidavit for lost certs, so maybe after I've written to the world and has uncle and still cant find it...this is what I'll have to do. So worried so she will be just stuck in transitory care for ages while I try to sort this out...not helped by me being in the UK !
Just a quick question if you or anyone else can help.
Who is irish permanent now, is it Permanent TSB ?
-
Sorry just another question...will the document actually be called a vesting certificate or could it be called something else and would it just be one document or several. One of my sneaky fears is that I have actually seen it in her papers and don't recognise what it is .....
I've have asked my aunt about all this but the problem is she's 85, very unsettled where she is so I cant really get any sense out of her and now it's just becoming a really upsetting topic so I cant really mention it all without floods of tears. All my mum remembers is the 1957/1973 thing...she was so shocked when I said she's signed a lease..
What a bummer eh...such a b****y mess,
-
Irish life and permanent is the name now
The company is historically derived from three different companies:
Irish Life Assurance
Irish Permanent Building Society
Trustee Savings Bank
It trades under the names:
Irish Life for life assurance, investments and pensions
Permanent TSB for banking, mortgages, loans, credit and debit cards.
They should have a file for the mortgage. I was surprised recently when I went into another Building society and they had a reecord of a mortgage i got over 40 yrs ago.
The vesting certificate is a very non descript one sheet piece of paper...I almost discarded mine in an 80's in a clean up.
Don't worry about people calling your aunt's ownership a lease...most property in Ireland was sold leasehold with a peppercorn rent. that is why in about 1978 the Act was passed to allow people buy out the ground rent and own the fee simple. I am out of touch with legal matters since I retired but, I would say the lease held by the Registry of Deeds should be sufficient title to enable you sell the house.
Another thought...have you contacted the Solicitors mentioned in 1977 and 1982..they might have the title documents.