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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Janet Mc on Wednesday 19 January 11 13:47 GMT (UK)
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This couple were supposedly married in "Ham by Kingston" in 1826. I would love a date and any of the details on the marriage registry. I have never been able to find out any details of Catherine's birth time or place or anything about her family. Am hoping for clues so that I can progress with her ancestors.
What church would it be?
I believe their son , Henry was chr. on 14 Oct, 1827 in Kingston. There might be more details about the family on his chr. record. Which church was this in?
Any help excitedly received.
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Hi
Both Henry and his sister were baptised at Kingston upon Thames parish church which was All Saints
HENRY PHILLIPS
Christening: 14 OCT 1827 Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey
Father: JOHN PHILLIPS
Mother: CATHERINE
EMMA PHILP
Christening: 29 APR 1832 Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey
Father: JOHN PHILP
Mother: CATHERINE
The parish registers are deposited at Surrey History Centre and would contain a brief address (it may just say Kingston or perhaps Ham) and the father's occupation
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bdy/
The parish church of Ham - St Andrews was founded in 1832 which is when registers begin. Before that Ham would be part of the parish of Kingston. The entry on the IGI (Family Search is a submitted entry from a Mormon church member not taken from an actual register). They appear to be guessing where the marriage took place - another similar entry suggests Richmond and probably also guessing the date - a year before Henry's baptism.
http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/GetRecord/SHCOL_2337
In fact the couple could have come from anywhere and married outside of Surrey. Do you know either of their ages because that would help in narrowing down a marriage date for them.
Regards
Valda
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As far as I know John PHILPS parents were Richard and Sarah (Williams) PHILPS of Haslemere and Mitcham SURREY. However, from what I have found they were married at Christchurch, Spitalfields, Stepney on 24 May 1795.
I just realized I haven't found their other children. One was William 1817. Henry likely born c. 1807.
John and Catherine had at least two other children in the area and so that means:
Henry -chr. 14 Oct, 1827
Frances 1829
Emma 1832
Jacob 1834 (Richmond)
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Hi
Jacob's baptism appears to be at Ham as the church was open by then, baptised 9th November 1834. You can request a look up for this baptism
see the Look up offers board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383021.0.html
24th May 1795 Christ Church, Spitalfields Middlesex
Richard Philps
Sarah Williams
Bachelor and spinster of the parish
Married by banns
Both signed
Witnesses
James Philips made his mark and George Arhlon?
Spitalfields is an area to the east of the City of London what we would now call the east end and across the river Thames from Ham further upstream. Haslemere is south Surrey nearly Sussex about 35 miles to the south of Ham and Mitcham is nearer, but not close to the Thames, on the east side of Surrey. None of these places are adjacent.
Where did Richard and Sarah have their children?
Regards
Valda
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There are two baptisms for this couple at Ham, St Andrew.
No. 74.
9th November 1834 - Jacob born 16th October - son of John & Catharine PHILLIPS - Ham St - Labourer
No. 196
12th August 1838 - John William born 9th July - son of John & Catharine PHILLIPS - Ham - Labourer
Later in the register there is a James & Jane PHILLIPS who baptise two children 1859 & 1865
All the best
Jan
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That's helpful. I'm beginning to wonder if Catherine's surname really was Turner. Was there a John Philps (often recorded as Phillips) marrying a Catherine in Kingston/Richmond and Surrey about 1825 +/- 2 years??? There weren't any older children on board ship with them when they left London in 1840. Young John William died on board I think.
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Still hoping to find a wedding for John PHILPS and Catherine ?TURNER about 1826. Believed to be at Ham or Kingston area. As this is where at least 4 of their children were christened - we haven't found a chr. for Fanny who was born c. 1829.
The other births I'd like to know about would be siblings for John. He was born about 1803-7 likely somewhere in Surrey. We think his parents were Richard PHILPS and Sarah Williams of Haslemere, Surrey, but this may be wrong.
Any help gratefully received.
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Hi
Where do you have the evidence that Catherine's surname was Turner from?
Baptism 18th October 1829 Twickenham Middlesex
Frances Phillips parents John and Catherine, father's occupation labourer
Regards
Valda
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Yes, that is almost certainly the right family -Frances Oct 1829.
I don't know why I've got the name of her mother as 'catherine turner'. Let's assume it could be wrong. So -we're looking for a John PHILPS (maybe spelt Phillips) and a Catherine X married almost certainly c. 1826 (first child is born 1827). The family 'history' is that they were married about Kingston -on -Thames.
The whole family migrated in 1841 to NZ -just before the 1841 census.
Thanks for any help.
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Hi
There is a John Phillips marriage to a Catherine Richards 16th December 1823 at St Mary Newington, Southwark (then Surrey now central London just south of the Thames) bachelor and spinster of the parish. Both signed making their mark. Witnesses were William Williams and Rebecca Mason. William Williams was a common witnesses in the parish register so probably the parish clerk. Possible first child baptised to the couple 23rd January 1825 at St Saviour Southwark born 13th December 1824. Samuel Phillips whose family was of Queen Street and whose father's occupation was labourer.
Newington in Southwark and Kingston upon Thames are about 12 miles apart. For an 1823 marriage for the couple to be of age and the register doesn't say minor for either, therefore if correct 21 or upwards a birth/baptism date would be circa 1802 or earlier. Sadly Southwark just south of the City of London across London bridge attracted people from across the country as a place of job opportunities and neither Phillips or Richards are unusual surnames.
Regards
Valda
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I don't think it can be this marriage because when the family migrated to NZ leaving 8 Jan 1841 on the "William Betinck" there is no mention of a Samuel and John and Catherine's ages are suggesting they were born about 1805 and 1803. Of course it is possible that Samuel died or even stayed behind if he was 18 and had started working. He isn't mentioned on the ship but there is a William Phillips 24 who might be a younger brother of John.
Phillips William 24 Farm Labourer
Phillips John 36 Labourer
Catherine 38
Henry 14 Labourer
Fanny 10
Emma 8
Jacob 6
Son 2
I cannot discover where the "Turner" name came from except Ancestry and Family Search -both of which are often inaccurate.
Thanks for any help.
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Hi
I think the only way of confirming the maiden name of Catherine will be through New Zealand certificates and the death, possibly marriage certificates of her children. Have you found all her children's death registrations? Do any given further information about Catherine?
Regards
Valda
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I hadn't bought Catherine's death certificate because it was a few years before the date when they gave more complete information BUT perhaps a conscientious person recorded more. It's worth a try. There are various distant relatives working on this and so perhaps we can coordinate and thus not buy more than we need. Yes, perhaps children's marriage certificates might say more. I just have to find one married later than the 1871 date when more details were included.
If we could find the 'intention to marry' or marriage for John PHILPS (perhaps PHILLIPS) and Catherine - we might find a clue to the parents of both. I've seen on the internet two completely different sets of parents suggested for each.
Thanks for all your help.
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I wonder if John PHILPS was a brick maker. That is the profession that he went into first in NZ.
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Hi
Unless any of the children married late or married for a second time you would expect their marriages to be to early to contain the information of their mother's surname, which was why I suggested any of their death certificates and only possibly their marriages.
Regards
Valda
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As of yesterday I've had a breakthrough in terms of this family although still can't find them even with all the new information.
John PHILPS was one of 4: (maybe more)
George - a new widower with one son in 1845 in Surrey
Henry
Jane who married Samuel Retter and migrated to NZ on same ship as John and Catherine.
The Retter's and JP had worked for Tollemache brothers who owned Ham house and much land at Ham in Surrey. ‘English investors in company land often
encouraged their employees to emigrate. A.G. Tollemache, the proprietor of Ham
House in Surrey’, had purchased sections in Wellington and ‘n May 1841 the
Lord William Bentinck arrived’ with a group of families and single workers from
the estate.16 Of the seven sponsored male employees, three were single (Charles
Stent, William Smith and Charles Brown). The four married male labourers were
John Howell (with wife Ann and five children under 14), William Dew (with wife
Ann, seven children under 14 and a daughter of 15), Samuel Retter (wife Jane and
two children under 14) and John Philps (wife Catherine, four children under 14 and a son of 14).
They were involved with the New Zealand Land Company
from its beginnings. In 1840, the company announced that it had ‘Capital,
£100,000, in 4000 shares of £25 each, all paid up’ and listed 22 shareholders,
of whom the Hon. Frederick Jas. Tollemache, MP was one.90 Even before Port
Nicholson (Wellington) had been surveyed, land orders were sold; the drawing
of 100,000 acres of Wellington lots was held in London on 29 July 1839. The
Tollemache family purchased 48 of the 1100 Wellington balloted lots: Algernon
bought 33; Frederick 12; and three other Tollemaches one section each. Dudley
Sinclair, a nephew of the Tollemache brothers, bought nine.91 Sinclair immigrated
to Wellington in 1839, supported his uncles’ interests and was a contact between
the Tollemaches and their former employees.92
The mother of John and Jane was still alive in early 1845 because they sent her a letter to ‘Mrs Philp Malden Near
Sutton Surry Europe “Per Bella Marina”’. The Bella Marina berthed in London
on 26 January 1845. Jane’s letter to her mother was delivered to Malden bearing a
‘Ship Letter’ stamp, a Wellington post-mark and a British one showing its date of
arrival. It remained in the Philp family.
So it sounds like the father was dead.
I tried last night but haven't yet found the death/burial -name of Mrs Philps (need registers of Malden and surrounding areas).
Haven't yet found any christenings for the children but all likely to be nearby.
Jane was born c.1811 according to her death details.
John was c. 1805 and the other two I'm not sure of.
Any help gratefully and excitedly received.
Can't believe I still don't have a marriage date for John PHILPS and Catherine ?Turner c. 1825/6 in the area of Kingston/Richmond/Ham...
Regards,
Christine
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Hi
GEORGE PHILP
LYDIA DABBS
11th October 1840 Merton, Surrey
The marriage certificate will confirm George's father's name and occupation.
Marriages Dec 1840
DABBS Lydia Croydon 4 63
Philp George Croydon 4 63
Baptism 4th July 1841 St John Malden Surrey
John Philips parents George and Lydia, Malden, father's occupation labourer
Burial 16th April 1843 St John Malden
Lydia Philps aged 23, Malden
In the same register there is also this burial
14th May 1837
John Philps aged 65, Malden
The 1841 census HO107/75 which covers Malden is lost.
There is a John Philp born Malden Surrey aged 29 lodging on the 1871 census in Sutton Surrey. He was an unmarried porter on the railways. Still unmarried and boarding in Sutton on the 1891 census.
Possibly this family on the 1851 census
1851 HO107 1603 folio 417
No 5 ? Cottages Norbiton Surrey
George Phipps 33 Head Married Labourer Merton Surrey
Harriett Phipps 23 Wife Married Morden Surrey
John Phipps 10 Son Merton Surrey
Mary A Phipps 2 Daughter Merton Surrey
plus 1 visitor
1861 census RG9 418 folio 89
6 Kerrs Row Cheam Surrey
George Philps 43 Head Married Ag lab Malden Surrey
Harriett Philps 33 Wife Married Morden Surrey
Mary Ann Philps 12 Daughter Merton Surrey
William Philps 9 Son Kingston Surrey
Henry Philps 6 Son Kingston Surrey
Jane Philps 1 Daughter Morden Surrey
On the 1871 census in Merton George gave his birthplace as Merton - RG10 855 folio 6. Harriet was a widow in Merton on the 1881 census - RG11 828 folio 58
There doesn't look to be a baptism for George in either Merton or Malden. Both have coverage on the IGI/Family Search
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySurrey.htm#M
George's second marriage
Marriages Mar 1848
Avery Harriet Kingston 4 203
Philp George Kingston 4 203
Regards
Valda
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Online contacts have now got me further back using the censes. We now know that John PHILPS was born in Petersfield, Hampshire. We've found all his siblings and his parents and the maternal grandparents. So far I'm stuck there.
The breakthrough came about by discovering an article on the interest called "The 7 servants of Ham" in which it was discovered that the Tollemarche family of Ham house sponsored and sent 7 men from their estate to Wellington. John PHILPS and family was one of the 7. His sister, Jane Retter was another. They sent 9 letters back to Surrey and through those I found the names of most of his siblings.
Here is what we've found so far.
John PHILP (1772-1837) of Sheet and Jemima WALBRIDGE of Sheet ( 1770-1847) were married 24 Jun 1798 in Petersfield, Hampshire. Witnesses John Caplin (? a cousin or uncle?) and Hannah Saunders (JW's sister)
Their children all christened in St Peter's, Petersfield, Hampshire:
1) Jemima 5 April 1801 prob. Married William Digweed, 20 May 1819 in Froxfield, Hampshire
2) John chr. 17 Feb 1805
3) Henry 19 Jan/June 1808
4) Jane of 2 June 1811, married Samuel Joshua Chapman RETTER on 1 Jan 1826 in Cheam, Surrey and migrated with John on “William Betinck”, 1841 to NZ died in Wellington, 22 March 1900
5) Martha 29 August 1815, married James DABB on 26 Oct 1834 in Morden, Surrey. Died 1897 Blue House Cottages, Merton Road Mitcham Surrey and James in 1899.
6) George 6 Nov 1818 , married Lydia Dabbs 11 Oct 1840 in Merton, Surrey and they had a son, John chr. 4 July 1841 in Malden. Lydia died in 2nd Q 1843 (aged 23) and looks like George remarried a Harriet X, because in the 1861 censes they're living at Cheam with 4 children. This censes suggests that he was born at Malden and it seems that they probably did move there before 1818 because they talk about 'growing up in Malden'.
George died in the Croydon area of Surrey in 1st Q, 1880 (aged 62) and his wife in 4th Q, 1889 (also 62).
Thomas WALBRIDGE of Buriton married Elizabeth CAPLIN of Sheet 13 September 1767 in Petersfield, Hampshire. The banns were read on 16/23/30 August and the witnesses were William Gammon and John Page.
Their children were born in “Sheet' an small area linked with Petersfield: It had a population of only about 250 and less than 90 houses1
1) Hannah born 2 Feb 1768 and chr. 13 Mar 1768. 04 Dec 1789 John SAUNDERS of Petersfield Hannah WALLBRIDGE of Petersfield Bns William Bradly - George Newland
2) Jemima born 2 Jun 1779 and chr. 04 Jul 1770
3) Elizabeth born 14 May 1771 and chr. 29 May, married Robert Budd 27 Feb, 1791 in Petersfield, Children Elizabeth (1791), Mary Ann (1793), Robert (1795), Henry (1797)
4) Joseph born 22 May 1777 and christened 15 Jun Died 10 April 1798
5) John born 1 August 1782 and chr. 3 Sept. (or did he die in 10 Sept 1782) in Petersfield.
Looks like Thomas buried 29 May 1783 in Petersfield.2
Elizabeth buried at age 85 on 1 April, 1828 at Buriton.
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Jemima Phillips married William Digweed 20 May 1819 Froxfield. He died in 1855 and Jemima married John Burnett in Petersfield 1856.
The Digweeds had seven children and after John Burnett died Jemima lived (and died) in Midhurst with daughter Caroline Henrietta Elliot neé Digweed.
William Digweed's father was Thomas Digweed, Froxfield 1761 to 8.2.1838 married Olive Budd in Colmore 3.11.1836.
1841 census Steep:
John Burnett 51
Jemima Burnett 60 ( was Digweed neé Phillips)
Solomon Burnett 27 son
Elizabeth Burnett 27 daughter
Caroline Digweed 20 stepdaughter
Jemima Digweed 5 niece Chatham Kent (gt grandmother)(daughter of Christopher Digweed & Eleanor Selves who were in the Crimea at that time.
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I have now discovered where JP came from and that the previously listed possible parents are nothing to do with the family.
His family were these:
John PHILP (1772-1837) of Sheet and Jemima WALBRIDGE of Sheet ( 1770-1847) were married 24 Jun 1798 in Petersfield, Hampshire. Witnesses John Caplin (? a cousin or uncle?) and Hannah Saunders (JW's sister)
Their children all christened in St Peter's, Petersfield, Hampshire:
1) Jemima 5 April 1801 prob. Married William Digweed, 20 May 1819 in Froxfield, Hampshire. They had 9 children in area.
2) John chr. 17 Feb 1805
3) Henry 19 Jan/June 1808, probably married Hannah Elizabeth WALKER 7 Dec 1835 in Bermondsey.
4) Jane of 2 June 1811, married Samuel Joshua Chapman RETTER on 1 Jan 1826 in Cheam, Surrey and migrated with John on “William Betinck”, 1841 to NZ died in Wellington, 22 March 1900
5) Martha 29 August 1815, married James DABB on 26 Oct 1834 in Morden, Surrey. Died 1897 Blue House Cottages, Merton Road Mitcham Surrey and James in 1899.
6) George 6 Nov 1818 , married Lydia Dabbs 11 Oct 1840 in Merton, Surrey and they had a son, John chr. 4 July 1841 in Malden. Lydia died in 2nd Q 1843 (aged 23) and looks like George remarried a Harriet Avery (George Phelp Married Harriet Avery 1st Q 1848 Kingston
Harriet Avery c 21/10/1827 Morden parents William Avery & Sarah Hore Married 23/1/1824 Newington Surrey), because in the 1861 censes they're living at Cheam with 4 children. This censes suggests that he was born at Malden and it seems that they probably did move there before 1818 because they talk about 'growing up in Malden'.
George died in the Croydon area of Surrey in 1st Q, 1880 (aged 62) and his wife in 4th Q, 1889 (also 62).
John Philps senior is listed as living in Sheet for Jane, Martha and Georges births and a 'labourer'
This was found out because he was one of the "7 servants of Ham House" (Tollemarche family) who were sent to NZ from an estate in Ham, Surrey. 9 letters for this group were published in the NZ newspapers and they revealed that two of the others in the group were his sister and brother-in-law. The letters gave us several siblings and his mother's name and then it was relatively easy.
JP senior and Jemima buried in Surrey
John PHILP born c. 1772 and buried 14 May 1837 in St John the Baptist, Old Malden
Jemima Walbridge born 2 June 1770 (chr 4 July) and buried on 24 Sept 1847 in St John the Baptist, Old Malden
Would love to know if anything more on the registry and whether there are headstones.
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I have now found no proof that John Philp's wife's maiden name was 'Turner'. Have no idea where this idea has come from.
I wonder if any of the children's baptism records have any witnesses or any mother's maiden name listed?
I have just ordered son, "Henry's death certificate from NZ 1908 - and hope that it will have the mother's maiden name on it.
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I have finally confirmed from two of her children's death certificates in NZ that Catherine's surname was indeed Turner. Still no sign of a marriage c 1825 in Surrey area for her with John PHILP/PHILPS/PHILLIPS ...maybe they didn't have a church wedding.
If this Catherine is the one born 1799 in Hanworth, Middx then she might have had an illegitimate son, George, christened there in 1821. I don't know whether she was then banned from a church wedding.
How do I find civil licensed marriages?
Thanks for any help
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Hi Janet,
You have helped with my brick wall with your finding on the Tollemachs and Ham House.
One of the single men sent to Wellington, New Zealand with the married families was Charles Stent a farm labourer aged 20yrs. I have been looking for his birth place in Surrey for many years. His death certificate has no parents or birth place. What is the distance from Ham House & Fittleworth, as there are Stents living in the area. A Crest was at a Family reunion in 1982 had the name Fittleworth mentioned on it.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Cheers
Barbara
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I recently met someone who lived near Ham House and she talked of going to ask there if they had any records from the 1830's.
Is there anyone else near there?
I am looking for any Turners that worked at Ham House or estate?
Especially for Catherine Turner (maybe she was there before her marriage in c 1825 and maybe that's how she and John PHILPS met.
He might have been a labourer or brick maker on the estate. So would love to know of any others with the PHILPS/Philips surname working there from about 1815-1841.
Thanks is advance. Every now and then I am lucky and someone out there knows something