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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Gill87 on Wednesday 19 January 11 13:06 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I was wondering whether anyone could shed any light on a bit of a mystery.
I am researching the Scullion family, in particular John Scullion who was born in Ireland c.1843. He first appears in Scotland, (Ayr) when he married in 1867. I'm presuming he came to Ayr due to the potato famine in Ireland.
On his marriage certificate both parents are listed as deceased and his mother's name is given as Rose Scullion nee McQuiggern. John marries again in 1890 after the death of his first wife. On this certificate his mother's name is given as Helen Scullion nee McQuiggern.
There are no parents' names listed on his death certificate so I have nothing to cross check his mother's name with. I can't find him on the cenus prior to 1871 suggesting he was still in Ireland. Any ideas?
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Hi :)
For what it's worth, I notice that on the 1881 census he has a daughter named Helen. I followed him to the 1891 and no sign of a Rose, so I'd say his mother's name was Helen but I may be wrong.
I've not found anything on the LDS Pilot site :-\
Who were the witnesses on his marriage certs?
JL
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Don't overlook the possibility that one of the names could have been either a middle name or a nickname she was known by. Sometimes the birth name can be forgotten or even unknown to all but the official record.
Mike.
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:)
I've just been nosey and discovered that one of the witnesses on the 1867 cert was a Thomas Scullion. This was most likely a relative.
Maybe have a look on the 1871 for him
JL
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Thanks guys.
One of the witnesses was a Thomas Scullion, yes. His parents were James Scullion and Margaret Brown. One possibility could be that Thomas is a cousin to John - perhaps Thomas's father, James was an uncle to John. The ages fit.
As John's parents are listed as 'deceased' on his marriage certificate I presume they didn't come to Scotland as I can find no mention of them or John himself until 1867 when John first married. Maybe they died in the potato famine.
But John didn't come with James and Margaret - possible aunt and uncle, as he's not on the 1861 census whereas they are. Maybe he followed after. Although I can find no trace of any brothers or sisters for John, it seems odd he was an only child, maybe they died in the famine along with his parents?
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I recall seeing the marriage in Derry in 1867 of a Rose McGuigan to and Edward Scullion on the Pilot site - I thought it might be a coincidence. I didn't see any baptisms/marriages earlier than that.
JL
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What is the Pilot site?
I've had no luck tracing the Irish part of my family tree, mostly because I've been spoilt with the ease of access to Scottish records that I don't know where to begin in Ireland, particularly as the dates I'm interested in are all before civil registration.
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Hi
Try this link
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=allCollections&r=1
and scroll down to Ireland
I know very little about Irish records but it might be worth you checking out this:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,385.0.html
You usually need the townland for Irish records but... :-\
JL
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hi Gill87,
I,m following the James Scullion & Margaret Brown line. I don,t know anything about your John Scullion at the moment, but i can tell you that James & Margaret were married in County Antrim 1844/1845. Is it possible to have the information on the names of John,s wives. Jame,s parents were William Scullion & Mary Money but thats all i know about William & Mary.
Scully
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Hello, I'm very happy to hear from you!
I have come to the conclusion that James Scullion and Margaret Scullion nee Brown were John's Aunt and Uncle. I have no proof for this what so ever however:
John Scullion marries in Ayr in 1867 to Bridget McShane/McCheyne. John's parent's, John Scullion and Rose McQuiggen are listed as deceased. I can find no trace of John in Scotland prior to this marriage. One witness to this marriage was Thomas Scullion - son of James and Margaret. It would make sense they were somehow related John and Thomas - cousins perhaps? James Scullion died on 20th April 1904 aged 78. Meaning he was born c. 1826. John was born c. 1843 so it's possible John's father and James were brothers. This would explain the presence of Thomas as a witness at his wedding. It'd be bizarre to pluck someone of no relation to you who just so happened to have the same surname to be a witness at your wedding, there must be a link.
John marries again after Bridget dies to a Hannah McMillan, his mother's name here is given as Helen. No names were given for his parents on his death cert but I'm more inclined to think his mother's name was Helen as he had a daughter named Helen with his first wife Bridget. I don't think John's parents ever came to Scotland. I think they most likely died in Ireland, maybe due to the potato famine, and he then followed his aunt and uncle overto Scotland. It seems odd though that I can find no trace of any brothers or sisters, maybe he was the first born and his parents got ill or died before having any more children.
John was my gg grandad.
Gill
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Just to add
Bridget McShane/McCheyne -
b. c. 1848 Co Down, Ireland
m. 29th Nov 1868, Ayr
d. 2nd Sept 1890, Ayr
Parents - Catherine McCoy and John McShane/McCheyne m. 1846 Co Down, Ireland
They came to Scotland with their children between 1855 and 1856
Hannah McMillan -
b. c. 1859, Ayr
m. 23rd Nov 1890, Ayr
d. 18th Dec 1895, Ayr
Hannah had a 5yr old illigitimate child when she married John - Samuel McMillan b. 21st Dec 1886, Ayr. Samuel died in service in WW1.
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Hi Gill87,
The name John also appears in Jame,s children , He had a John born 4/10/1859 and died 27/3/1860, he then named another son John born 15/2/1869 who died 25/9/1931. do you have the address of where John was living when he got married in 1867. Thomas got married on the 2/12/1867, at Elbe Street, St Quivox. He was living at 22, Wallace Street, Ayr.
Scully
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Hi,
Yes, I noticed that John. My John also had a son called John born 1876 in Ayr and died in 1934 in Holmston Rd, Ayr.
John was living at George St when he married Bridget, when he married Hannah he was living at 99 Cross St. I believe that John and Bridget moved from George St to Cross St following the death of their first 2 sons, so between 1870 and 1873.
In 1881 John and Bridget are on the census living next door to James at 79 Wallace St, 10 years later, now married to Hannah he's back at Cross St.
I notice that James remarried following Margaret's death, to an Agnes. What relation are James and Margaret to you?
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Hi Gill87,
James & Margaret were my G G Grandparents. Their daughter Elizabeth Scullion married my G granddad William John Young from County Down. He had a son John Scullion Young married to Marion Wood Hendrie who had my mother Margaret Brown Hendrie Young. I noticed Thomas was a witness at his sisters wedding on 9/9/1867 with a Margaret Dinning. Who were the witnessess on John,s marriage,s. The witnessess to Thomas,s wedding were a Bernard Higgins & i think it was a Harriet Higgins.
Scully
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Scully, hi.
Yes, the witnesses to John's first marriage to Bridget were Thomas Scullion and Margaret Dinning.
For his second marriage to Hannah the witnesses were S. Mc Millan and Margaret Mc Millan - presumably relations to Hannah as her maiden name was Mc Millan.
So who was Margaret Dinning...? Intruiging.
Gill
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Hi Gill8
When my G Grandmother Elizabeth Scullion married William John Young on 7/1/1868 the witnessess were a John Mackin & Sarah Dining. I,m hoping the 1911 census might tell us exactly where Thomas was born in Ireland. I think James & Margaret came to Scotland after Thomas was born about 1845, His sister Mary was born about 1848 in Ayr. It,s certainly hard work trying to find out when they originally came from Ireland.
Scully
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Hi Gill87
Could you tell me how many children John had and what thier names were. James and Margaret had 11 children and i was wondering if many of their names were the same. I was checking some deaths on SP today and found another child for James and Margaret, I also found the death of 2 John,s One died in 1870 and the other died in 1873 at George st, Parents were John Scullion & Elisabeth McShane.
Scully
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Hi Scully,
I came across two death entries where the parents were listed as John Scullion and Bridget McShane. When cross maching the deaths with birth certificates I was able to be sure that the deceased were children to John and Bridget. I'm unsure as to why she is listed as Elizabeth. She is not referred to as this anywhere else that I have come across.
As far as I am aware Bridget and John had the following children:
James Scullion b. 26th April 1868 George St, Ayr. Parents John and Bridget Scullion nee McShane.
James Scullion b. 17th July 1870 George St, Ayr. Parents John and Bridget Scullion nee McShane.
Helen Scullion b. 1873
John Scullion b. 1876
Patrick Scullion b. 1881
Mary Scullion b. 1884 (This is my G Grandma)
The first James died 22nd March 1870 aged 2 from Bronchitis in George St, Ayr. His parents are listed as Elizabeth McShane and John Scullion.
The second James died on 1st September 1873 aged 3, again in George St, again the parents are listed as Elizabeth and John. I couldn't read the cause of death.
Helen died aged 14 at 110 Cross St, Ayr in 1887.
Patrick died in Kyle Union Poorhouse aged 25 in 1906. No Records survive.
John died in December 1934, he is described as the widower of Jane Elliot however I can find no record of her birth or death nor their marriage.
Also to note that on the 1871 census John and Bridget are living with Bridget's sister Mary McShane and her 2 year old illigitimate daughter Catherine (presumabley named after Mary and Bridget's mother - Catherine McKay).
Are there lots of name similarities, and have you come across any of the above before? I'm convinced they're all linked, James and John Scullion, but how is still only a guess!
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Hi Gill87,
Just a quick message Before i sort out the names of James children.On family searh there is a child called Ann for John & Bridget & i found her death on Sp for the same year she was born 1872. I noticed you had not got her down on your list, do you have the information.
Scully
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No, I haven't heard of an Anne. I will do the search now. Thanks Scully.
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Hi Gill87,
Ann died 13/9/1872, 5 days old, George St, Informant Mary McShane, aunt. Could,nt make out what she died of.
Also theres a Thomas died 18/5/1879, 10months old, died from Infantile Diarrhea 14 days. Found these while i checking the names of mine and found the death of twins for my Thomas in 1876.
James & Margaret Had the following children
Thomas born Ire 1845, d 13/3/1924
Mary b, 1848, Ayr, d, 14/6/1874
Elizabeth b, 1850, Ayr, d, 8/1/1901
James b, 30/9/1851, Ayr
Janet b, 1852, Ayr,
William b, 24/2/1854, Ayr
William b, 11/8/1855, Cross st, d, 27/3/1934
Margaret b, 1858, Cross st, d, 4/10/1860, Cross st
John b, 4/10/1859, Cross st, d, 1/12/1860, Cross st
Margaret b, 1/4/1861, Wallace St d, 24/11/1870, Wallace st
John b, 15/2/1869, Wallace st, d, 25/9/1931, Ayr
Scully
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Hi Gill87,
I was looking at the 1881 Census and i noticed that William born in 11/8/1855 the brother of Thomas was living at 79, Wallace St, Ayr, the same address as your John & Bridget.
Scully
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Hi Scully,
Regarding your previous message. I had noticed this. I kind of assumed that houses were split into parts as both William and John are listed as heads of household, but I don't know.
Have you seen the 1901 census? Your Thomas is married to Agnes and has his father James living with him. It states they were both born in Co Antrim, Ireland. Also living with Thomas is a boarder - Patrick Scullion aged 21. I believe this is John's son, Patrick. I have always been unable to locate my John Scullion on the 1901 census so have begun looking for his children. I have found Mary, my Great Grandmother, as a boarder with the Tait family in Elba St, now Patrick as a boarder with Thomas at 87 Wallace St.
Other people living with Thomas are a Maggie Scullion Balmer and her children Agnes and James. If you haven't already do so take a look at this census as it seems more of her children - a Thomas, Alice, William and George were living with a James Scullion - head of 79 Wallace St as they are listed as nieces and nephews.
Gill
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Hi Gill,
I do have those Census for 1891, I had,nt realized Patrick was on there. What was the names of the Taits, Do you have Patricks marriage or death. I noticed he was living at 88, York St, when he got married, In 1911 my Aunt Elizabeth Scullion was born at that address while siblings before and after her were born at Green St Lane.
Scully
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Patrick Scullion was born in 1881 to John and Bridget. He married Barbara McMillan in 1903 and, as you say, was living at 88 York St at the time, as was Barbara. Barbara was an illigitimate child and shared the same surname as John's step son - Samuel McMillan, who was an illigitimate child to John's second wife Hannah. Presumably all part of the same family.
Patrick died in Kyle Union Poorhouse on 5th March 1906 from TB. Interestingly his parents are listed as James Scullion and Bridget McCheyne, however I'm presuming this was an error. The death was registered by James Henderson, Govenor (presumably of the poor house). Patrick's wife Barbara had died before him in 1905 at 88 York St Lane, Ayr, from TB. It was her widower Patrick that registered this death. It seems after she died he was admitted to the poorhouse however there are no records for him, I have already checked.
As for Mary Scullion, she was a border for the Taits - John and Mary Tait aged 26 and 25 respectively, their son, 2 year old James and another boarder - 17 year old Hannah McGee born in Ayr. Both boarders worked as Wool Spinners and they all lived at 70 Elba St. Also for that address is listed the Jess family - William and Sarah Jess aged 47 and 48 respectively and their three children - Margaret, 15, William, 15 and James 12.
A search on Scotlands People reveals that the wife Mary Tait was the daughter of William and Sarah Jess explaining why they were all living in number 70 Elba Street. Mary Jess and John Tait married in 1896, both were living at 27 Cross St at the time.
Do any of these names mean anything to you?
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Just to add Scully,
When John remarried following Bridget's death. He and Hannah had three children:
Catherine Scullion, Elizabeth Scullion and Thomas Scullion. All of them died in childhood:
Catherine died at 110 George St on 23rd June 1986 aged 2 from Whooping Cough
Elizabeth died at 87 George St on 11th May 1897 aged 6 1/2 from TB
Thomas died at 110 Cross St on 17th June 1896 aged 15 months from Whooping Cough
On the birth cert Thomas's full name was Thomas Helena Docherty Scullion. No idea where the Docherty came from but I think Helena might have been after John's mum.
I also noticed John, a son of James and Margaret, registered the death of a premature birth with his wife Jane Dillon. There is also the birth in 1892 of a Margaret Brown Scullion to John and Jane before they were married presumably as she's listed as illigitimate. Born March 28th 1892 at 69 Mill St.
I hope you don't mind me asking but where are you based? Scotland?
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Hi Gill,
I leave in West Bromwich, West Midlands. Its my mom,s line of the family tree i,m following. i still have a lot of relatives living in Ayr. my grandad John Scullion Young had 17 children, he married twice. my mom comes from the first marriage her mom died when she was 6 months old. Grandad had his first child in 1907 and last child in 1944. Are you based in Scotland.
Scully
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I'm discovering more children of John and Bridget!!
No, I'm not based in Scotland. I'm in Brighton! The Scullion line of the family comes from my Mum's side. Her Dad (Thomas Jardine) came from Glasgow where his Mum, Mary Scullion, moved to from Ayr.
I never met my Grandparents - my Grandad Jardine died in 1978. Because my Grandad moved to England my Mum knew very little of her family up in Scotland and they all lost touch. In turn I knew very little so decided to do some searching. It's amazing what you can find, I absolutely love it! My Mum thought her Dad was one of three, I discovered he was actually one of five!
I used to live in the Midlands - Leicester and then Shropshire.
Keep digging!
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hi Gill,
Its great doing the Scottish side as there is so much information on the certificates. Trouble is i can get carried away with the Sp site. I think i,ve got the full list of deaths/ marriages/ births years for Scullion since 1855 up to about 2000. but there still seems to be a lot that missing. I,ve also got about 8 books on the MI,s for Ayr ,So if theres any names you want looking up. I did check for your Scullions but did,nt find any. as you say we just got to keep digging. If i come across any of yours i let you know.
Scully