RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: EdCan on Sunday 16 January 11 20:39 GMT (UK)
-
I can not find anything on this guy and what I have is not much.
Walter married Elizabeth Barton 8 Apr 1884 St Peter West Hackney. Marriage cert describes Walter as 52,widower and gentleman living Mortimer Rd. His father was Edward Jackson Fitzsimons - gentleman.
Can anyone help?
Ed
-
Hi - a few apparent refs to father's military career from 1857 to 1870 in the London Gazette:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22008/pages/1976
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22722/pages/1823
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23580/pages/478
Regards
Rob
-
Another one - Royal South Lincoln Militia:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22176/pages/3902
Rob
-
Hi Ed
Here's a possible for Walter in the 1901 Census:
RG13 223 23 37
81 Graham Road, West Hackney
William J RICHES Head 31, Mechanical Photographer, b Kent (crossed out) Woolwich
with wife Julia + 3 children
Walter FITZSIMONS Lodger Widower 72 Debt Collector, b Ireland
KR
Maryam
-
Thanks Rob and Maryam
Maryam-the 1901 is in the right area and age is resonably close but he would not be a widow. In 1901 Elizabeth is using her own name and is living with daughter Grace.She is described as widow.Elizabeth dies 27 Dec 1927Islington.
Rob-how do I find Edwards attestation(?) papers
Ed
-
Hi
1891 census RG12 193 folio 23
11 Clifton Grove Hackney
Walter FitzSimons 62 Head Widower Solicitor Ireland
If the marriage didn't work out they may both for propriety's sake have put widow and widower on census entries. It would be most unusual for a widow to revert to her own name.
Deaths Dec 1906 Fitzsimons Walter 77 Hackney 1b 321
1881 census RG11 282 folio 65
49 Church Street Stoke Newington Hackney
Walter Fitzsimons 27 Head Married N M Fire Brigade Queenstown Ireland
Sophia G. Fitzsimons 30 Wife Married Ireland
Ada V. Fitzsimons 11 Daughter Greenwich Kent
Walter Fitzsimons 58 Widower Retd? N M Fire Brigade Cork Ireland
St George Ryder Fitzsimons and Sophie Geraldine Fitzsimons (both appear in these names on the 1891 and 1901 censuses) married in 1890 at Stoke Newington - Sophie marrying as a widow (propriety's sake again). St George Ryder Fitzsimons' father was Walter a solicitor's clerk. Both St George Ryder Fitzsimons and Sophie died in Croydon registration district.
There doesn't seem any evidence that Walter or St George Ryder/Walter Fitzsimons were in England on earlier censuses?
Army officers' records and militia records are held at The National Archives. What is mostly online is ordinary soldiers' records. If Edward Jackson Fitzsimons the soldier, was related he looks to have been a sibling or possibly a cousin not a parent.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmyofficerbefore1913.htm?WT.lp=rg-3140
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/militia.htm?WT.lp=rg-3192
Freeman's Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser (Dublin Ireland) 12th January 1847
Opening of Hilary Term
Court of Chancery
Attornies taking apprentices
Henry Fitzsimons of Abbey Street in said city gent, to take Walter Fitzsimons son of Edward Jackson Fitzsimons late of the city of Cork esq deceased
same journal 23rd July 1861
Edward Jackson Fitzsimons a Lieutenant in 78th Regiment of Foot stationed in Aberdeen is suing the Great Southern and Western Railway in the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland. His attorney was Henry Fitzsimons.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda
It's possible Sophie/a was telling the truth on the 1890 marriage:
Death Dec Qtr 1885 Hackney Vol 1b Page 294
Walter William FITZSIMONS aged 32
which ties in with the 1881 census.
So did she marry Walter's brother?
KR
Maryam
-
There is this marriage on the www.familysearch.org website:
23rd May 1861
Gortroe, Cork, Ireland
Walter FITZSIMONS
Father: Edward FITZSIMONS
Eleanor RYDER
Father: William RYDER
Film #101427
which brings the Fitzsimons and Ryder names together.
KR
Maryam
-
And this one from the same site:
20th October 1852
St Paul, Dublin, Ireland
Walter FITZSIMONS
Father: Edward Jackson FITZSIMONS
Elizabeth TARRANT
Father: Thomas Harkin TARRANT
-
Another marriage:
1874 Rathdown
Sophia Geraldine HAMILTON (Sophia's father's surname from marriage to St George Ryder)
Walter William Harris FITZSIMONS
Both Vol 12 Page 782
this seems to be repeated
1875 Rathdown
Sophia Geraldine HAMILTON
Walter William Harris FITZSIMONS
Both Vol 7 Page 814
-
Ada's birth year is wrong in the 1881 census; it should be c1877 ie 4, and she is recorded as 14 in the 1891 census.
St Paul, Deptford
Baptism 21st January 1877
Born 24th November 1876
Ada Violet dau of Walter William H & Sophia Geraldine FITZSIMONS of 462 New Cross Road; father's occ: Gentleman
-
Thanks Valda and Maryam
I tried to post this earlier but for some reason it did not show up.The Edward Jackson of 78 Foot could not be dad - possibly brother.There is also a marriage 1827 Edward Jackson Fitzsimons and Mary Foott(?) Diocese of Cork & Ross,Co Cork.I am thinking that the 1852 marriage is my Walter prior to the Elizabeth Barton marriage
The 1906 death is likely mine.
Ed
-
Hi
If Sophie married two brothers then second marriage was illegal. That would only be made legal in 1921 with the
'Deceased Brother's Widow's Marriage Act 1921'
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Ed
It's not clear whether we have one Walter or two, and one Edward or two, is it?
There is this marriage also to throw into the pot, as it were:
1864 Limerick Vol 20 Page 240
Edward Jackson FITZSIMONS
Sorry, I can't guess who he married and I can't see how to cross reference Vols and Pages on the site.
I can see the military records of some Edward Fitzsimons's, hang on....
-
In my message that did not show up I stated that I did not think that Edwrd Jackson of 78 Foot was Walter's dad.Since Walter was born abt 1830 then his father must have been born no later than 1805. The London Gazette 1857 has an Edward Jackson Fitzsimons becoming a Lieutenant. I would think that this would be too old for the father-50+ yrs.Probably a brother(?).
Ed
-
Well, these early attestation records aren't much help as although there's dob and pob, no parents / next of kin are shown, which is what I was really hoping for; sorry. And not one has Edward Jackson Fitzsimons anyway.
How annoying that the Irish censuses were lost/destroyed for the years before 1901 :-\
You may have to view the films of the marriages found for Walter; the film for Elizabeth Tarrant is #101336. Hopefully they will contain more detail.
KR
Maryam
-
Hi
British army officers records are not online only ordinary soldiers records.
The 1847 extract from the Dublin newspaper indicates that Walter's father Edward Jackson Fitzsimons of Cork was by then deceased. The 1881 census indicates Walter was born in Cork.
Sophie Geraldine's first husband's death registration
Deaths Dec 1885 Fitzsimons Walter William B 32 Hackney 1b 294
Regards
Valda
-
Also a Fitzsimons thread on CORK board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=507760.new#new
-
Thanks for the info. Not sure how to use it though.
Ed
-
Hi Ed
The information about St Paul being a Church of Ireland church is useful; if you look at the 1901/1911 Censuses for Ireland ( http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ ) there is this entry:
1901
Residents of a house 12 in St. James Avenue (Mountjoy, Dublin)
Edward J FITZSIMONS
Head
Irish Church
Read & Write
68
Annuitant
Born County Cork
with family:
Elleanora (sic) Wife 60 b County Limerick
Florence Dau 23 b Limerick
Edward J V Son 22 Nil occupation b Galway
Edward John Vize Fitzsimons born 1866 to EJF & Eleanora in Limerick (from the familysearch site) may have died and they named a later son after him.
But at least you now know that this family group were CofI; hopefully it will be easier to identify different Edward Fitzsimons and families if they are Catholic.
KR
Maryam
-
.....
You may have to view the films of the marriages found for Walter; the film for Elizabeth Tarrant is #101336. Hopefully they will contain more detail.
....
the full (combined church/civil) record is available on IrishGenealogy.ie
see : link (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/974afa0915490)
Shane
-
Thanks for the link, Shane :)
1862
http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/71.php
Shows Henry & Walter, Solicitors, @ 68 & 69 South Mall, Cork
1850
http://www.dublin1850.com/dublin1850/xdubdir27.html#Fitzsimon
Henry was @ 100 Middle Abbey Street, Dublin, with a John Fitzsimons; both solicitors.
-
Thanks Shane and Mayam.
Shane - does the 23 May 1861 marriage of Walter Fitzsimons and Elanor Ryder show up? I am thinking occupation of groom and occupation of father Edward. Is this a second marriage or different Walter? It took place Gortroe Cork
Ed
-
Ed, on the link, if you click on the green button at the top of the page "Search Church Records" and put in "Fitzsimons" then a page opens with lots of Fitzsimons stuff. On the left hand side you can enter another name, such as Edward, Walter, etc. I can't see the second marriage but that doesn't mean it's not there ;D
KR
Maryam
Added: and if you click on the "View the church register containing this record" at the bottom of the link, you can see the signatures etc.
-
Thanks Shane and Mayam.
Shane - does the 23 May 1861 marriage of Walter Fitzsimons and Elanor Ryder show up? I am thinking occupation of groom and occupation of father Edward. Is this a second marriage or different Walter? It took place Gortroe Cork
Ed
The IrishGenealogy website does not include Church of Ireland records for County Cork so a civil cert would be required.
Based on the details posted earlier by Maryam, these are the full references you need :
Name: Eleonora Helen Ryder
Registration District: Fermoy
Event Type: Marriage
Year: 1861
Volume : 6 / page : 23
Name: Walter Fitz Simons
[same index references]
see :
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
Shane
-
Re the 1862 Dublin Street Directory - is this address Cork St Dublin or Cork city? I think it is Cork city but want to make sure.
Ed
-
Hi Ed
The addresses for Foots & Fitzsimons in the link I posted for 1862 are Gardiner-street, Lower, in Dublin and South Mall, Cork. If you look at some ot the other solicitors on the page, they also list addresses in Gardiner-street, Lower and other places.
I'm not a member of the following forum, but you may like to post the link to the image of Walter & Elizabeth's marriage that Shane provided, so they can see that it does actually exist :)
http://genforum.genealogy.com/ireland/messages/86503.html
Link to cert:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/d-273-4-3-111.pdf
KR
Maryam
-
Still have not nailed Walter down to my satisfaction. Too much info and too many questions.
In 1881 census there is a Walter Fitzsimons 58 born abt 1823 Ireland and retired from fire brigade. Who is he and where is he after 1881?
The 1901 Irish census of Walter and Elleanora should have nothing to do with my Walter since he was living in Hackney in 1901. Therefore I do not think the Fitzsimons/Ryder marriage is theirs.
My Walter died 5 Oct 1906 Hackney at age of 77 with occupation of Debt Collector. Informant was St George Ryder Fitzsimons (son). This ties in with 1891 and 1901 census.
Ed
-
Hi
You have Walter in the Hackney censuses 1881-1901 and his death in Hackney in 1906. In 1881 he is with his son Walter William Harris Fitzsimons (born circa 1854) and his wife Sophie Geraldine nee Hamilton (married Ireland - references given). Walter junior died in Hackney in 1885 and his widow married his brother St George Ryder Fitzsimons (born circa 1862) on 20th October 1890 Stoke Newington (father Walter a solicitor's clerk). It was illegal at the time to marry your brother's widow. It would appear though that Walter junior and St George were more likely half brothers.
Since St George Ryder Fitzsimons is the son of Walter (as shown from his marriage) then the marriage reference already given in Ireland of Walter Fitzsimons marriage to Eleanora Helena Ryder in 1861 is a strong possibility for his parents' marriage. A possible first marriage for Walter was in 1852 in Dublin.
Edward Jackson Fitzsimons married in 1864 Limerick but not necessarily to the same wife found with him in 1901- Eleanor, if the Edward J Fitzsimons on the 1901 census is him. I can't see anywhere a reference given to a Walter and Eleanor in Ireland in 1901?
You would need to obtain some of the Irish certificates refered to for Walter to progress further.
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
Irish civil registration indexes begin in 1845 for non-Catholic marriages. Civil registration indexes to births, deaths, and all marriages (including Catholic) begin in 1864.
Regards
Valda
-
Thanks Valda
My problem is the 1881 census. There seems to be too much descrepency between it and the 1891/1901 census both for occupation and age. I have a hard time seeing a person who describes himself as gent(marriage cert) and lawyer as putting himself down as being retired from the fire brigade. Gent and lawyer also apply to his time in Ireland prior to being sentenced for forgery in 1862.
Ed
-
Hi
All the names are very distinctive and tie up. His son as head of house would be the most likely person to fill in the household schedule for 1881. The connection with the fire brigade in 1881 is N M. You would need to know what N M stood for to know what the position was? There is no indication that either man was an actual fire officer.
1881 census RG11 282 folio 65
49 Church Street Stoke Newington Hackney
Walter Fitzsimons 27 Head Married N M Fire Brigade Queenstown Ireland
Sophia G. Fitzsimons 30 Wife Married Ireland
Ada V. Fitzsimons 11 Daughter Greenwich Kent
Walter Fitzsimons 58 Widower Retd? N M Fire Brigade Cork Ireland
1874 Rathdown
Sophia Geraldine HAMILTON
Walter William Harris FITZSIMONS
Both Vol 12 Page 782
21st January 1877 St Paul Deptford born 21st November 1876
Ada Violet Fitzsimons parents Walter Wm H and Sophia Geraldine, 462 New Cross Road, father's occupation gentleman
20th September 1885 St Mary Stoke Newington Hackney born 25th July
Hyacinth Blanche Fitzsimons parents Walter William Harris and Sophia Geraldine, 4 Summerhouse Road, father's occupation Gentleman
Deaths Dec 1885
Fitzsimons Walter William H 32 Hackney 1b 294
20th October 1890 St Mary, Stoke Newington
St George Ryder Fitzsimons 28 Bachelor Clerk 4 Summerhouse Road Walter Fitzsimons Solicitor's clerk
Sophie Geraldine Fitzsimons 40 Widow 4 Summerhouse Road Thomas Hamilton Law Proctor
Both signed
Witnesses Henry William Budd and A L Sweetland
1891 census RG12 179 folio 106
4 Summerhouse Road Stoke Newington
St George Ryder Fitzsimons 29 Head Married Insurance Office Clerk Gunnerstown Cork
Sophia Geraldine Fitzsimons 46 Wife Married Kingsdown Dublin
Ada Violet Fitzsimons 14 Daughter Greenwich
Hyacinth Blanch Fitzsimons 2 Stoke Newington
Regards
Valda
-
Thanks Valda
I guess that I had a hard time accepting that my Walter had anything to do with being retired from fire brigade. As late as 1874 he was still in Ireland being charged with theft from mail boats. But I now see how everything connects.
Ed
-
Hi
In which case anything said on the 1881 census may be a complete or partial fabrication or in the circumstance it might have been the best work he or at least his son could get.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda, Ed and Maryam
Not sure if this will help, but Edward Jackson Fitzsimmons married Eleanora O'Donnell daughter of Elliott O'Donnell and Sarah Vize in Limerick. I believe this is the 1864 marriage and the same Elleanora [transcribed Elleanard!] of the 1901 census.
This Edward appears to be the one mentioned in the London Gazette a number of times.
As to their son Edward John Vize Fitzsimmons, I am wondering if the son born 1866 in Galway and the son aged 20 born in Galway in the 1901 census are the same and there has been some recording error. The family seems to have been based around Limerick normally and not Galway, the birth of both in Galway is what makes me suspicious.
Still trying to trace what happened to them but your posts have been very useful!
I am not sure of the connection between Edward and Walter, I would assume brothers as already mentioned, due to the ages, father's name, connection with Limerick.
Sue