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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: ogohogoh on Saturday 15 January 11 20:08 GMT (UK)
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I would appreciate any information gleaned from this photo of my paternal grandfather William Wilkinson...his age, status, symbolism etc. The photo is stuck to a plain postcard-size piece of card so I can't say what's on the back. It looks original but might just be an old copy of an earlier photograph with the subject set against a new plain background...there's a cut-out feel to it.
Apart from this image I have a copy of his marriage certificate dated 5th August 1913 at age 26 when he was a Stock Broker's Clerk, but that's all. He's something of a mystery man as he was no-longer with my grandmother by the time my father was 6 or 7 and my father never spoke of him.
Many thanks, Fred
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Hi
ogogoghho oggogoghoo Fred ;D
Is it a true black & white, or has it just been scanned that way? Could we see a colour scan of the whole thing please?
You will have to change the file name, just add a letter or number to it and that should be fine.
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Cheers,
China
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Fred if he was 26 in 1913 and he seems to disappear is it possible he died in WW I.Of course if your father was born after WW I then that idea is a no-goer,just a thought though.
George.
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Where was he from? Have you looked in the IGI?
Cheers,
China
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Hi George - my father was born 11th November 1914. I got the impression that his father was around for part of his childhood but was considered something of a 'Bad Lot'. His mother had a daughter by another man eight years later and they stayed together for a long time, possibly until his death, but never married. She eventually married again in 1941. Regards, Fred
Hi China - I converted the photo to black and white and tidied it up a bit to improve clarity. I'll rescan the original and post again. At the time of his marriage in Hackney he was living in Lower Clapton. Not sure what IGI is - am a total novice! Regards, Fred
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hi,,where was william born? ;)
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Here’s the original scan – the handwritten note was added by my mother many years ago, the date probably a guess.
I’m pretty sure she never met him. My parents met in 1943 and married 7 weeks later on 12.1.1944. Neither my grandfather or his replacement featured in their wedding photos.
I've no idea, as yet, where my grandfather was born, or anything else about him.
Fred
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Hi Fred :)
It certainly looks like a re-print to me, perhaps there were others in the photo that were not wanted, or the background wasn't liked, or...who knows!
The boy is wearing an Eton collar, and combined with the mortar-board he could be in his school uniform, perhaps even Etonian - although I think they wore/wear top hats. Younger Eton boys certainly wore shorts jackets like this one.
Cheers
Prue
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Have you found him on the 1911 census? Does he give a middle initial on his marriage cert? Father's name on marriage cert? It is not clear to me whether you are only interested in finding him after 1913, or are also looking for his previous life and his family.
Nick
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Where was he from? There are 8 William Wilkinsons in the IGI who were born in 1887, whichh would be his year of birth if he was 26 in 1913. Most of them in Lancashire.
But the photo has 1880 written on it.
In 1880 there were also 8 WIlliam Wilkinsons, from all over.
The International Genealogical Index is put out by the Mormons, whose hobby is genealogy, and it's the very first thing you need to know about when doing genealogy.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
Then there are the censuses....have you found him there? If we was born in 1887 you'd only have the 1891 and the 1901 to work with, and maybe the 1911 depending on which pay website you go to.
I agree with Prue that the photo has been worked over. It's a very odd format and I don't think a professional one...any pro who put that sort of thing out would be run out of town in a hurry :) It is certainly not typical of a vintage photo of any era.
Cheers,
China
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Hello Pru - Many thanks for your input - it does rather look like an Eton School uniform...but it could just be a photographer's studio outfit.
Hi Nick and China,
My interest in my grandfather was aroused as I sifted through old family albums with a view to creating a family photo history/biography...unfortunately most of the photos are undated. I hadn't thought seriously about getting to grips with the broader genealogy, just sort out the chronological order, but as I looked at all the vintage photographs I realized how little I knew about some key members of the family.
My initial request was for a reading of the photograph...but it's now clear that if I want to know more about my grandfather (and I do) I need to do some serious research. All this is very new to me and I have yet to begin checking censuses. I am particularly interest in him because no-one ever spoke of him.
All I have to date is this photo (wrongly dated) and a copy of his Hackney marriage certificate as follows: 5th August 1913, William Wilkinson, age 26, Stock Brokers Clerk, of 70 Hallidon Street Lower Clapton. Father: Harry Richard Wilkinson (deceased) Licenced Vitualler. His bride was Lilian Maud Tabor, 25 years, from Stoke Newington. Her father was Frank Horace Tabor, Fish Salesman (from Brightlingsea).
I do believe that the original photo was the work of a professional - it's a half-decent image and the boy has been carefully posed, but I agree it's also been the subject of some serious tampering. Many thanks for your helpful comments and suggestions.
Best wishes, Fred
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Well...let's see what we can find.
Here's another site you will need:
www.fbmd.org.uk
If William was born in London, there are 3 likely candidates born in 1887, just plain William with no middle names. One in Lambeth and 2 in Poplar. I'm not English so I may have missed a registration district in the London area, not being that familiar with them, but I don't think so.
I can't find WIlliam in the IGI.
But....there is a Harry Richard Wilkinson. Born 1863 in Farnham, which would make him 24 when he had William. If he's the right person. Unfortunately Harry's baptism is not taken from parish or civil registers, but the information has been submitted by a member of the Mormon church. That doesn't make Harry a Mormon, however....as I mentioned their hobby is genealogy :)
I'm going to keep looking, but I suggest you move this query to the Common Room, as it's not just about a photo anymore, and you'll get much wider exposure there. There are some brilliant minds on Rootschat.
Give as much information as you have.
Cheers,
China
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Doesn't seem to be the right Harry Richard...this one is still living in Farnham in 1901, and doesn't have a son WIlliam.
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Good find on Harry Richard, China. He does show up as born Sept Qtr 1863 in Farnham on FreeBMD. So a birth reg will be available. Also a marriage in June Qtr 1887 in Farnham.
Nick
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Hi Nick....doesn't seem to be him :(
I feel for this Harry, though....in the 1901 he's a gravel digger, and according to the IGI he died in British Columbia. I hope he had a better life there than the life of a gravel digger in Farnham.
Although they do have plenty of raw material for gravel in BC ;D
Cheers,
China
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Oh, I think I've found him.
From the 1891 census:
In St Mary Paddington,
Henry R Wilkinson, age 30, manager of off-licensed house
Clara J, wife, age 30
William H. E. age 4 (birth year would be 1887)
Henry was born in Pimlico, Clara in West London, and William in Kennington.
Back to the 1901, where I wasn't having any luck :P
Cheers,
China
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Found Henry right away, in Kensington, but he's now working as a labourer G.L. (what would that be? General Labourer is my guess)...he is still married to Clara, and has 4 children with him, but William isn't one of them...
From FBMD, there is a Henry Richard Wilkinson born in the registration district of St George Hanover Square, in the Sept quarter of 1861. That's in the city of Westminster, and so is Pimlico. I lived in Pimlico for a short time :)
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So, still looking for William, and I'm trying to find his grandparents because he could be living with them.
Back in time, then, to the 1881 census.
We find a Henry R Wilkinson living in Battersea, a boarder aged 23, a Free Methodist minister from Paddington. Paddington isn't far from Pimlico, it's in the same registration district, and it begins with the letter P. Don't laugh....information is only as good as the person giving it, and if the person giving census information can only remember that a family member is from a London place beginning with P, that may be what you get :)
That's all I can find in 1881.
FBMD gives us a marriage between a Henry Richard Wilkinson and a Clara Jane Mostran in the Sept quarter of 1883. Children coming along fairly quickly in an era before birth control, William being born in 1887 makes me wonder if they might have had children previous to William..
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I have a decent candidate in the 1901...a William Wilkinson age 15 living at the York Infantry Barracks. Place of birth, London. He is single, and in the column that seems to be used for rank, he is listed as "Boy".
Are there any witnesses named on the marriage certificate?
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1871 census....the only reasonable candidate I can find...Henry R Wilkinson, age 15 (ages not always correct, as birthplaces) living in St Michael le Belfy, Yorks, birthplace London.
His mother Matilda is widowed, age 50 birthplace London, also brother Joseph age 17.
There is a marriage in the IGI, member-submitted, between a William Wilkinson and a Matilda Marsh, 1851. It looks flaky, though....however, there is a marriage in FBMD for the same people in Dec 1851 in Mansfield.
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Well....enough of this protracted conversation with myself for now....I'm off to bed :D
Cheers,
China
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Thanks so much, your efforts are really appreciated.
The only other information I have is a suggestion, part of our family mythology, that my grandfather William Wilkinson may have squandered the family fortune...but I guess that’s a part of everyone’s ancestral history!
It’s just possible that he was born in Lambeth as both my mother and father’s parents had homes in Brixton.
Returning to the image a minute, it really is a curious photo, and I am now wondering if it is an old copy of a photo-montage – with the cut-out of the boy and possibly the dog as separate images. The cutting-out of the figure is fairly crude (some of his right cheek appear to be missing) so it may even have been done by the child himself...but then who would bother to retake the photo?
Can anyone shed any light on the combined symbolism of mortar board, the gloves, and the rather tatty whip (I don’t think it’s a dog lead)? Was this typical of the period and what impression were they meant to convey?
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Wow! I've just read the latests posts...amazing! Thank you so much. Fred
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Hi China,
The witnesses on William's marriage certificate are Rose Walters and F. A. Chapman. William's father Harry Richard Wilkinson is marked as deceased on the certificate (5.8.1913). Regards, Fred
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Okay, just a thought...I'll get back to it later.
Meanwhile, if William is really William H. E. Wilkinson, the 4-year-old son of Henry R Wilkinson manager of an off-license in 1891....then he was born in the March quarter of 1887 in the registration district of Lambeth. There's only one William H E born that year.
Your next big move is to send for the birth certificate. It's very likely to be him...that second initial narrowed it down from about a hundred WIlliams to just one. And he's born in just the right place.
Later,
China
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Just a thought China - William's father is named as Harry Richard in his marriage certificate, not Henry.
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Hi Fred
Very interesting photo, and some great work from China!
Re the name on the marriage certificate being Harry Richard, vs Henry Richard in the 1891 census as manager of the off license - Harry is a well known shortening of Henry.
But as China says, you may well have to invest in the birth certificate, reference as found, to see what turns up. Very likely to be him, and it will give you his mother's name and maiden name too, so you can follow them back and see if the marriage between Henry Richard Wilkinson and Clara J Mostran is the right one.
I think the photo itself may be cut out from another picture, as suggested, perhaps of other boys at the school? If William's father was in trade, and doing reasonably well during William's youth, perhaps he did go to a private school with an Eton-type uniform.
Perhaps something happened to Harry Richard's business - we all need to have another look for him in the 1901, and also in the 1911.
With regard to the photo, what's William got in his left hand - right hand is the dog's lead, in the left?
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It looks more like a whip than a lead in his right hand...although it appears rather worn, possibly chewed. He's holding a single glove in his gloved left hand.
PS. I note that you have an interest in Brightlingsea - his bride was from a well-known family of fish merchants in Brightlinsea, the Tabors.
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Have just been able to look at the entry for the marriage between Henry Richard Wilkinson and Clara Jane Mostran, and I must say there are a couple of details which do seem to link it well with the licensed victualler reference
The marriage was on September 10th in St Stephen's Parish Church Lambeth.
Henry Richard Wilkinson was aged 22, a grocer's assistant, of 35 Dorset Road, Lambeth, and his father was John Wilkinson, a butler
Clara Jane Mostran was aged 23, no occupation, of 1 Osborne Cottages, Dorset Road, Lambeth, and her father was Edward Balls Mostran, a herbalist.
Unfortunately, their son William H E Wilkinson (from the 1891 Census China turned up), doesn't show up in the London Christening records, which would confirm his father's occupation at the time of his birth in Lambeth in 1887.
Still not sure of them all in either the 1901 or the 1911.
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Oh yes, you're right, Fred, I can see now that he's wearing a glove on his left hand and holding the other glove in it. Looks like the dog's been chewing the lead/whip! ;)
I would say he's about 10 in the photo, putting it 1897.
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It's great that we've found his father and mother...but William still seems almost as illusive in death as in life...and I've no idea why my father made virtually no reference to him in his lifetime. It's a great pity that I didn't ask more questions...but I guess we all have those regrets when we reach a certain age. Somehow it only seems to matter when it's too late :(
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Hi Igor?
What year were Henry Richard Wilkinson and Clara Jane Mostran married?
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September quarter of 1883. You can look it up at FBMD.
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Oh yes, I can empathise with that one. All the people you COULD have asked, and didn't.
On the other hand, many of them wouldn't have told you much, and lots of them would have passed on somewhat garbled memories. That's what we all say here. ::)
I've found Lilian Maud Tabor in the 1911 living at 32 Beecholm Road, Clapton. The family have a lodger living with them, and, reading between the lines, I bet that's how Lilian (a dressmaker) and William Henry E Wilkinson (a stockbroker's clerk) met.
I've tried to see if I can see William in the 1911 in Clapton or thereabouts, but no luck currently.
The thing is, of course, that many marriages weren't happy and, unlike today, you couldn't just divorce and move on. So people did leave.
You may have to content yourself with putting as much meat on the bones of William's family as you can, and resign yourself to not being able to track down much about the man himself. Unfortunately there are rather a lot of William Wilkinsons in the WWI records, and beyond those, tracking people in the 20th century is very difficult.
On the other hand, didn't you say that Lilian DID marry later, so it may be worthwhile looking for William's death around the time of the marriage, as perhaps she did know vaguely where he was, or was told about it?
oh, sorry, re the marriage, told you everything else about it, but the year! 1883!
Have also found Clara Jane Mostran's christening records, parents shown as Edward Balls Mostran and Frances Jane Clark Mostran. Edward's a porter in 1860, rather than a herbalist.
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Eight years after my father's birth his mother Lilian Maud had a daughter by another man on 24th Dec 1922, and although they never married he became stepfather to my father. I believed the couple lived happily together until his death whenever that was...and she eventually remarried in March 1941...to a man my father introduced her to. I can only assume that she was not free to marry her second partner during his lifetime.
As an aside I have this from my cousin - the elder son of Lilian Maud's daughter
"By the way did you hear the story of Nan (Lilian Maud) being on the stage with Houdini - the glamorous assistant - when he performed in the UK (presumably London)? According to stories I was told she was also the first woman to ride a motorcycle through the streets of London. And then there are the stories about the club in Soho and her 'relationship' with the so-called 'King of Soho'. All good stuff to pass onto our kids/grandkids - Nan was somewhat special. By the way, your info about the Tabors being in the fish business explains why Nan also had a fish stall at Billingsgate at some time (so I was told)."
She had a number of soho night/drinking clubs...as did my father (I have a list).
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Gosh - well, those are some memories.
Lilian was a dressmaker in 1911, aged 24, and married two years later, having your father the following year. Perhaps she slotted in being Houdini's assistant ahead of that?
Or, conceivably, and no disrespect to your family memories whatsoever, she attended one of Houdini's performances during the first decade of the 20th Century (he toured the UK then) and said to someone "ooh, if he asked ME to be his glamorous assistant, I'd be up there like a shot" ;)
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I suppose it's possible she could have been his assistant before becoming a dressmaker, although it seems unlikely. She certainly led a colourful life when my father was a young man...and she was a very entrepreneural and successful businesswoman with at least 3 West End clubs (probably not all at once...my father sometimes acted a doorman) and numerous businesses.
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Update Re William Henry Edward Wilkinson:
Following your helpful detective work I have since obtained my grandfather's birth certificate and am able to confirm that he was indeed William Henry Edward Wilkinson b.18.1.1887 in Kennington. The birth certificate confirmed his father as Henry Richard Wilkinson and his mother as Clara Jane Mostran. So thank you all for your help.
I have since joined Ancestry and am gradually fleshing out the bones of my family but my grandfather still remains much of a mystery with little evidence of him beyond the age of 4 in the 1891 census, his marriage to my grandmother Lilian Maud Tabor on 5.8.1913., and a possible death in October 1962. My grandmother remarried in 1941 so if William was still alive they were either divorced or she committed bigamy.
This new photo has only just been discovered and is almost certainly of my grandfather holding my father as a baby (b.11.11.1914). It is one of just two photos and the only one of him as an adult. I recently posted it in the Common Room hoping that the uniform would provide some extra info...but unfortunately without a great deal of luck despite members' best efforts. He remains a mystery...but not quite the total mystery he was before your help!
Kind regards, Fred