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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: alan_t on Friday 14 January 11 15:57 GMT (UK)
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I'm looking to find descendants of this ancestor by marriage.
He was a convict (don't know which transportation ship he was on; nor why he was transported - but would be interested to find out).
All I know is that he married my wife's ancestor Ann Dumville at St Phillips Church in Sydney on 31 Oct 1836. She was not a convict so they were allowed to marry apparently. Cannot find parish records for this church online. Exceedingly difficult to perform any searches on the couple in any respect because of his common surname and her common first name!
Looking to find out whether they had any children, what their names and DOBs were, marriage dates, etc.
Any info would be gratefully appreciated, tho' I understand that the SMITH factor complicates efforts.
Many thanks
Alan
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Alan
Do you know the names of Ann`s parents !!!
Jamison
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Hi
Her parents were Phoebe DUMVILLE (convict) and Charles DUMVILLE (who stayed behind in England with the couple's other children after his wife's conviction). See previous rootschat link for information on her illustrious mother: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,477672.0.html
I should also add that another member gave the following marriage details for John & Ann Smith:
Marriage St Phillips Sydney C of E 1836
John SMITH to Ann DUMVILLE
#V183656 20
Hope this helps and thanks for responding so quickly.
Alan
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Alan
Then you know these two web sites
http://www.genejeannie.net/familygroups/fam729.html
http://www.rootsweb.comhttp:// = Catherine Dumville - husband - James Grote.
Jamison
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Hi Jamison
Yes, I am aware of the Phoebe DUMVILLE and Catherine DUMVILLE information you highlight. It's Ann DUMVILLE we're having difficulty with - especially since she married a John SMITH, of all names!
We're trying to establish whether she stayed in Australia with John Smith and whether they had any children. We're assuming that they stayed in NSW and that any subsequent christenings / baptisms took place in the St Phillips parish. That's merely an assumption, mind!
Thanks again
Alan
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Sorrry was not much help then !!!
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Hi Alan,
All convicts required permission from the Governor to marry if they were still serving their sentence regardless of which party was the convict.
Applied August 1836
Permission granted in October
John SMITH, 28, (Ship) Sesostris, (Sentence) Life, holding a ticket of leave, stated single
Ann DUMVILLE, 22, (Ship) Roslyn Castle, Came Free, stated single
Married by Clergyman William COWPER at Sydney
The NSW archives have records relating to John SMITH. There appear to have been two John SMITHs on the Sesostris.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-2
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online
Debra :)
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Hi Alan
NSW BDM online lists 24 births with parents John and Ann Smith 1836-1856. Because these are pre-civil registration (started 1856 NSW) no districts are noted.
Looked for death 1836-1876 of Ann Smith with parents Charles and Phoebe, no luck.
Removed Phoebe, found 3 - two of which have no mother's name
10679/1875 SMITH ANN CHARLES UNKNOWN YOUNG
4574/1864 SMITH ANN CHARLES DIED MOULAMEIN MOULAMEIN
3414/1873 SMITH ANN CHARLES ANN BOMBALA
Looked again with mother Phoebe & no father named - no luck.
You probably won't find St Phillip's parish records online because they were given to the Reg General and are 'findable' on the V series films. St. Phillips (in case you didn't know) was the first C/E church in Australia, original built c1820, rebuilt 1856 - nice pic as it is today, on http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/ROC/ROC21.htm
Dawn M
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You probably won't find St Phillip's parish records online because they were given to the Reg General and are 'findable' on the V series films. St. Phillips (in case you didn't know) was the first C/E church in Australia, original built c1820, rebuilt 1856 - nice pic as it is today, on http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/ROC/ROC21.htm
There were much earlier registrations for St Phillips though - presumable at a much older more primitive building. (Just for interest)
Wiggy
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Hi All,
I agree with Wiggy, and note that from the Early Church Records held by NSW BDM and indexed online (as "CA"), there's around 109 marriages recorded for 1788 !!! with 101 showing the details of those marriages are recorded in the parish records for St Phillips. There were also around 8 marriages recorded at Norfolk Island, for around 109 marriages in total. Although I understand that in fact St Phillips was not formally established until 1802.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=marriages
Also of interest could be Governor Lachlan Macquarie's general orders re establishing admin for recording Burials and Baptisms etc dating from Sept 1810 (See Sydney Gazette, 15 September 1810 etc) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Also NSW State Records Office has lengthy articles and guides online re establishment and maintenance of these early records pre civil registration. http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/marriages/marriages#colonial-secretary
It is my understanding though that Macquarie's regulations were observed more by their breach than by formal obedience ;)
BACK TO TOPIC THOUGH
Re marriage in 1836, the entry in the St Phillips parish records, may well be from the quarterly returns forwarded to St Phillips from an outlying church rather than from a ceremony conducted within the St Phillips building itself. It would be sensible to check further to see if Rev William Cowper actually conducted the service, or if it is simply the "transmitted" record that he has entered in the St Phillips register. For example, from my own tree, I have forebears who were baptised at the Macquarie Street Chapel for the Wesleyans, and in accordance with Gov Macquarie's 1810 regulations, Rev Horton then transmitted his quarterly return to Rev Cowper who in turn entered that event in St Phillips records too (ie there's in fact three entries within the online NSW BDM records for that one event from 1827, ) ....
Cheers, JM :)
You probably won't find St Phillip's parish records online because they were given to the Reg General and are 'findable' on the V series films. St. Phillips (in case you didn't know) was the first C/E church in Australia, original built c1820, rebuilt 1856 - nice pic as it is today, on http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/ROC/ROC21.htm
There were much earlier registrations for St Phillips though - presumable at a much older more primitive building. (Just for interest)
Wiggy
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Hi there,
Following from Debra's reply # 6, and the initial question re John Smith
He was a convict (don't know which transportation ship he was on; nor why he was transported - but would be interested to find out).
The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Carcoar (NSW) was tried at Norfolk Quarter Sessions.
The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Liverpool and Paterson (NSW) was tried at Wiltshire Assizes.
The one tried at the Wiltshire Assizes received his NSW Tickets of Leave from the Liverpool Police Magistrate's Bench.
ONE of those chaps received a Colonial Pardon on 1 July 1842, however the index does NOT indicate which of the two chaps named John Smith who arrived on the transport ship Sesostris in 1826 received that Colonial Pardon. A copy of the Colonial Pardon should give you a good description of the person, the ship's name, the trial place etc ;) and should help to sort out which chap was your John Smith :) (There's a John and Mary SMITH in my tree, such popular names, patience and determination and open mind needed to sort through and find needle in the haystack!)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Alan T et al
I had a look at the film for 1836 today at QFHS library. Here's a transcript:
Marriage solemnized in the Parish of St. Philip's, Sydney
John Smith of this parish, a labourer, a bachelor and Ann Dumville of this parish, a Spinster were married in this church by Banns with consent of Government on This day 31st October 1836 by William Cowper.
John Smith signed and Ann Dumville made her X mark.
Witnesses John Crane (signed) and Rebecca Crane (X mark), both of Sydney
Interestingly, in the same volume I found the marriage of Rev William Cowper himself, and the very first entry in that volume was for one of my Blue family!
Dawn M.
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Also, I note from NSW BDM online that there are 20+ births to John and Ann Smith 1836-1856 but unfortunately it doesn't give a location for any of them so you would need to look at each one.
Don't know when I'll be at our library again (I live 35km across town so don't go unless I can get a full day spare)
Dawn M
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Thanks very much for all the help given. Much appreciated.
I hate to sound thick, but I'm a little confused about the convict ship index highlighted. I went on to the NSW records online and put the name John Smith in, but 6 records came up for the Sesostris. Can anybody tell me how to read this? I'm trying to fathom how the six database returns equate to just 2 people. I'm assuming that the 'Year' column is the year that the ship sailed to Oz. Not at all sure what the column 'Date' signifies - arrival in Oz, maybe? Does this mean there was more than one sailing of the Sesostris in 1836?
Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed from here for Ann and John's children? I checked the NSW online census records, but there are no women (Ann Smith) to search on. There are a few John Smiths, but there are very few women listed.
I did check the name John Crane (witness to John and Ann's marriage - thanks Dawn!). The name is listed on the 1841 census as being in residence in Parish Castle Hill, District Parramatta. Would this help, or is it a real long shot, I wonder. The server's now down so I'll have to wait a little while to check this.
Thanks all.
Alan
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In 1841 it would be at least a day's journey from Sydney to Parramatta / Castle Hill
Not sure what '1841 census' you mean? I see Jaunay lists part of an 1841 census but it's for Illawarra district which would not include Castle Hill/Parramatta.
Dawn M.
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Hi,
Just a snippet.
NSW Government Gazette March 17th 1834, p165.
LIST OF RUNAWAYS APREHENDED DURING THE WEEK
Dumville Phoebe, Roslyn Castle, from Thomas Cadel.
Gerry
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Hi Alan,
The six records are 3 for Tickets of Leave and 3 for Ticket of Leave Passports.
A ticket of leave allowed convicts to work for themselves on condition that they remained in a specified area, reported regularly to local authorities and if at all possible, attend divine worship every Sunday.
Ticket of leave passports allowed convicts holding tickets of leave to travel between certain points, visit a certain place or to attend the city markets for a specified period of time.
I believe all are for the John who was tried at Wiltshire, except the last ticket of leave which was for the John tried at Norfolk.
The year column is the year of the ship's arrival (essential for them to keep track of all the John SMITHs!!)
The date column is the date the ticket of leave/passport was issued to the convict.
The "No" column is the reference number of the ticket and always consists of two numbers - the last two digits of the year it was issued, and the actual ticket number. For example 36/041 is a ticket issued in 1836, and the ticket number is 041.
As you can imagine, with thousands of convicts, many with the same name, there had to be a system for keeping track of everyone. You will find that your convict was always recorded with their year of arrival, ship name, and often trial date and place. Many of the ships made multiple trips to Australia, and there were many different ships with the same name. When this happens you will see a ship named as, for example, Mary Ann I (3), which is the first vessel named Mary Ann on it's third voyage. I don't know how the convict administrators managed all this without loads of coffee and Panadol - rum maybe? ;D
Convict records, including tickets of leave are free to search on Ancestry until 31 January http://www.ancestry.com.au/
The 1841 census for NSW only records heads of households by name (which is why there are only a few women), and only provide age span, sex, free or convict status for others in the household. As both Johns were still convicts they would not be recorded by name.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bit/
They do both appear on the 1828 census, one at Hyde Park Barracks in Sydney, and the other is assigned to Charles WHALEN at Prospect. A bit of trivia - it was this Charles WHALEN's two sons who were the first Europeans to find and enter the Jenolan Caves. (apart from possibly a few bushrangers)
Just taking a couple of sentences from JM's post and adding to them:
The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Carcoar (NSW) was tried at Norfolk Quarter Sessions.
Tried: 12 or 20 July 1825 Norwich Quarter sessions (Life)
1853 Recommended for a Conditional Pardon
The John Smith whose ticket of leave places him at Liverpool and Paterson (NSW) was tried at Wiltshire Assizes.
Tried: 16 July 1825 Wiltshire Assizes - Robbery (Life)
Native Place: Salisbury, Wiltshire
Born: 1808
1 July 1842 Conditional Pardon
The microfiche indexes for NSW give baptism area codes (I don't know why they didn't bother to put them online) and I will check this out for you tomorrow - not sure if it will help though. It is very difficult to trace anyone forward in time (which is why we go backwards), let alone someone named SMITH!
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
I think you may have just made my day! Not only for the clear and concise explanation of terms, but also because according to a previous post of yours, the permission for John Smith to marry was in 1836 when he was 28 years old. That means that he must have been born around 1808. Assuming that the first John Smith was not born in 1808 (I would obviously need to find this out to be sure), then our John Smith must be the one tried at Wiltshire Assizes for robbery! All of this deduction is like sudoku!
Thank you very much. I'm going to see when this info takes me next.
I also hope that you are in a position to check the baptism info tomorrow.
Thank you, thank you.
Alan
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Debra
I went on to Australia Births and Baptisms on familysearch.org to look up all the children born to a John Smith and Ann between 1836-1856 in NSW. I have only included children born to parents with the exact names of John Smith and Ann, as neither of them had middle names.
There are 13 children with the surname SMITH. Grouping them to places of birth and baptism (NB the first date is the birth date; the second date is the baptism date):
1) Place: All Saints Camden, NSW:
George Smith (10.02.1837 / 24.04.1837)
2) Place: St John, Parramatta, NSW:
Mary Virgo Smith (22.02.1839 / 31.03.1839)
Caroline Elizabeth Smith (30.03.1839 / 28.04.1839)
Sarah Smith (30.08.1840 / 06.09.1840)
3) Place: Queanbeyan, NSW:
Mary Ann Smith (06.06.1839 / 24.08.1839)
John Hunt Smith (17.05.1841 / 22.08.1841)
4) Place: Yass, NSW
Ann Smith (07.05.1841 / 08.03.1841)
5) Place: Vincent, Murray & Aukland Counties, NSW
Jane Smith (? / 12.02.1846)
6) Place: Bathurst, NSW
Lucy Smith (01.05.1853 / 10.07.1853)
Lucy Emma (20.03.1855 / 27.05.1855)
7) Place: Unknown, NSW
John Smith (27.04.1854 / 30.07.1854)
8) Place: Carcoas, NSW
William John Smith (08.02.1854 / 11.06.1854)
9) Place: St Andrews, Sydney, NSW
George Smith (16.02.1855 / 23.09.1855)
I hope this info helps. I know that some older records here reveal the mother's maiden name on the birth records. I'm hoping this is the same on the Australian ones.
Many thanks.
Alan
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Hello Alan
Registration in NSW didn't start until 1856, so anything before that is from parish registers, and if only one date is given it will be baptism date. Some clergy put the date of birth too, but not all did.
There are two in 1855 on your list that are not on the NSW BDM online = Lucy Emma and George. Checked right up till 1866 and only one of each was found - Lucy in 1853 and George in 1837. Not to say the others did not happen, of course :D Being parish registers it's likely some didn't make it to the govt. department recording them.
Mary Virgo Smith and Caroline Elizabeth Smith at St John's Parramatta are presumably from two different families, with births six weeks apart.
There are some on the NSW BDM online which aren't on your FamilySearch list, too.
If no-one else finds them, I'll have a look next time I go to our library but that may not be for a week or so.
Dawn M
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Hi Alan,
Some baptisms 1835-1855 Parents John SMITH and Ann* - New South Wales
V1836520 20/1836 SMITH JOHN JOHN ANNE Parramatta
V18371085 21/1837 SMITH GEORGE JOHN ANN Berrima/Bong Bong/Sutton Forest/All Saints (Co. Camden)
V1839651 23A/1839 SMITH CAROLINE E JOHN ANN Parramatta
V18391277 23A/1839 SMITH MARY A JOHN ANN Canberra/Lake George/Queanbeyan
V18391372 121A/1839 SMITH MARY JOHN A ANNE Illawarra/Wollongong
V1839638 23A/1839 SMITH MARY V JOHN ANN Parramatta
V1840730 24A/1840 SMITH SARAH JOHN ANN Parramatta
V1840335 25A/1840 SMITH JOHN G JOHN W ANNE C Sydney
V18411685 25A/1841 SMITH JOHN H JOHN ANN Canberra/Lake George/Queanbeyan
V18411933 25A/1841 SMITH FLORANCE AM JOHN J ANNE A Merriwa/Muswellbrook/Paterson
V18412151 28/1841 SMITH ANN JOHN ANN Gundaroo/Gunning/Yass
V18421968 47/1842 SMITH JOHN JOHN ANN Parramatta
V18431481 27A/1843 SMITH CHARLES F JOHN ANNE Monaro/Manoroo/Monaroo
V18434526 47/1843 SMITH JOHN JOHN ANN Sydney
V18441171 28/1844 SMITH HANNAH JOHN ANNE Parramatta
V1845915 48/1845 SMITH JANE JOHN ANN Counties of St Vincent, Murray and Auckland (Itinerant)
V18451180 48/1845 SMITH ROBERT JOHN ANNE Sydney
V1845862 45A/1845 SMITH ROBERT JOHN ANNE Sydney
V18481406 34A/1848 SMITH MARGARET S JOHN ANN Canberra/Lake George/Queanbeyan
V18481917 33A/1848 SMITH ALEXANDER JOHN ANN W Gundaroo/Gunning/Yass
V18481701 33A/1848 SMITH JANE S JOHN ANN Montellorus/Wellington District
V18502193 37A/1850 SMITH EMILY A JOHN ANN Canberra/Lake George/Queanbeyan
V1852845 39A/1852 SMITH JANE JOHN ANN Carcoar
V18527188 45C/1852 SMITH EMILY E JOHN T ANNE A Sydney
V18521645 51/1852 SMITH EMILY E JOHN I ANNE A Sydney
V1852844 39A/1852 SMITH JANE JOHN ANN Carcoar
V18533685 39A/1853 SMITH LUCY JOHN ANN Abercrombie District/Bathurst
V18541226 40/1854 SMITH JOHN JOHN ANN Montellorus/Wellington District
V18544389 40/1854 SMITH WALTER E JOHN T ANN A Ashfield/Balmain/Burwood/Concord
V18542217 71/1854 SMITH PETER JOHN ANN Sofala
V18543172 40/1854 SMITH WILLIAM J JOHN ANN Carcoar
V18544656 121B/1854 SMITH ELIZABETH JOHN ANN Albury
V18551545 42A/1855 SMITH ANNE L JOHN ANNE Pennant Hills
It is unlikely that a pre 1856 baptism will show the mother's surname unless the child is illegitimate, although I have seen it in some of the Catholic registers.
Debra :)