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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: keithwynne on Wednesday 04 March 09 15:04 GMT (UK)
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Original Title: Catholic Church in Chirk
Hello list,
Can someone tell me when the Catholic Church in Chirk was built and anything about its history?
Thankyou
Keithwynne
Moderator Comment: The original title has been changed to reflect that this topic is gradually encompassing other memories of Chirk, too. :)
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Hi Keith :)
The unusual 1929 wooden white and black Roman Catholic Church is located in Castle Road
from http://www.ceiriog.co.uk/chirk.html
Gadget
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Hi again Keith
A bit more:
Lady Rosamund Trevor.....the second wife of Arthur William Hill Trevor....They married in 1897........As a staunch Roman Catholic she had already built a small timber catholic church at the top end of Chirk Green close to the grounds of Brynkinallt Cottage, where the twenty or so catholics of the neighbourhood came to worship, and which served for the next fifteen years, until replaced.
Neville Hurdsman A History of the Parish of Chirk, Bridge Books, Wrexham, 1996, page 128
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
You've done it again.
I missed that snippet in Hurdsman's book although my wife, a catholic who has attended the church in Chirk, suggested that either the Howard-de-Waldens or the Trevors were likely to have paid for the building at its present site since both had catholic connections.
Still I wonder before 1929 where did Chirk catholics attend mass?
Kind regards and thanks
Keith
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Hi Keith
I think you missed my last message - they attended mass at the small chapel/church that Rosamund Trevor built close to Brynkinallt Cottage at Chirk Green.
As you might know my mother's brother married into one of the main RC families in Chirk - the Pierce/Pearce family - and a cousin on Dad's side married an Irish RC and converted so I've been to that 1929 RC Church a few times for marriages :)
I also went to lots of 'Sales of Works' at the Convent that the Sisters of the Sacred Heart lived in with friends who were RC.
I recall that my Mum was keen to send me to the nursery there when I was 3 (I was a handful and ready for school ;D ) but Dad wouldn't allow it because he thought that 'they'd get me'. Dad's father's family were strong Methodists so there was a lot of prejudice in those days.
It's strange now looking back at such views but that's how it was. I finally went to the C of E school 2 months after my 4th birthday.
Do you remember the small mausoleum that Lady Rosamund built for her daughter, Moira, in the Church Yard. it was directly opposite my Mum's parents grave so I went every week with Dad when he went to tend the graves and I loved looking through that little window to see the statue of the little angel with flowers in her hand. It was so peaceful and still and mysterious.
I expect that I'm still 'a handful'
:D :D :D
Gadget
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Hi,
Can you tell me please where the Methodist Church is (was) in Chirk which our joint great grandfather attended? I suspect it is the one in Chapel Lane where it meets the main road. You - a handful - never!
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Hello Janet
Your other cousin here ;D
I think the chapel was the one in Chapel Lane because that's where Uncle John Oliver went.
The others -
one opposite Brynkinallt Park (on what is know called Colliery Road , I think) was the Welsh one
one in Station Road
One in Church Street
one in Black Park (which Henry and Lizzzie helped raise funds for)
I'm sure there was a Chirk Green Chapel but I can't remember where it was :-\
JL
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Hello JL,
Can you remind me please, where and what was the chapel in Church Street in Chirk.
When I was last in Chirk, I was saddened to see the Welsh Chapel at the top of Bronywaun was apparently no longer used and looked very dilapidated and neglected. They never had a large congregation but their singing of Welsh hymns was wonderful.
Keith
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Hello Keith
I just have a vague recollection (of maybe 60 years ago) of people coming out of a building on the West side near to where the Co-op had their furniture dept. I'm just wondering if it was a minister's house or a chapel.
I remember asking why there were so many chapels and only one church. :-X
JL
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hello JL,
Thankyou for your reply. I'm sure the building you mention was the manse where the local minister for the "Prim's" chapel on Station Avenue, lived in the 1950's. Between the manse and the grocery shop (Harry Lavis?) was the entrance to Queens Square.
Keith
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Yes, that's the one, Keith :) It was red brick wasn't it?
Mr & Mrs Seth Rogers (Ehud's parents) used to go to the Station Avenue one. Seth was the organist. They had a lovely organ in their living room which I wanted him to teach me to play but I didn't get very far. I found out later that it was my Taid's. He was given it when they died. Also found out that we were related to Seth via the Stokes/Twigg line (Janet take note ;) )
JL
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Hello JL,
Yes, it was red brick.
Mention of Seth Rogers reminded me of him calling at our house to collect "the money for the papers"
and being in a long conversation with my father. After he'd gone I learned from my father that Seth had saved his life. A roof fall in the pit had all but buried my Dad and Seth pulled him clear just before more of the roof came down.
On a recent visit to Chirk I'm sure I saw Peter Rogers leaving a house on Station Avenue near where the Needhams lived. He would be the grandson of Seth I suppose.
Keith
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List,
Can anyone tell me where Brynkynalt colliery was sited in 1906. My grandfather was killed there in that year and I've always assumed that it was where I remembered it, near Bronywaun but now I have been led to believe there was an earlier shaft somewhere near the top of Chirk Green.
Keith
Moderator Comment: topics merged
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Hi Keith it was indeed also known as Chirk Green Colliery and was opened in around 1870 and closed in 1968.Here is a map of where it was;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b9g/
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi William,
Thanks for the map, the shaft is where I remembered. I can't think where I got the impression of an earlier shaft, but clearly my grandfather was killed in this later mine.
Keith
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I searched everywhere on the net for a photo of the pit Keith but was unlucky.There maybe someone on this Site who might come up with one.
Your probably like me Keith with coaldust in the blood!My dad worked down the old Wynnstay in Ruabon and Ifton.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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William,
When I was a student I took several photos of the pit since we lived almost next door. Unfortunately after I left home the photos have been lost.
Your Dad and mine probably worked at Ifton at the same time. Small world
Keith
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Hello Keith, WR and probably cousin Janet
BB has renamed the old thread so that we can talk about our memories of Chirk
http ://www .rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,365562.0.html
Brynkinallt colliery was the old Chirk Green colliery as far as I can remember :)
Maybe we could ask a Mod to merge these :) (*)
JL
(*) Moderator Comment: Done :)
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Hi JL,
The minister who lived at the manse in the 50's was Rev Chapman and had a daughter Brenda.
Mid-week meetings were held in the manse and were well attended and may account for the number of people you saw arriving or leaving.
Keith
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Hello Keith
I think we've mentioned this before - not sure.
I recall my Dad's experience in the late 1940s. He wasn't the same afterwards :-\
A large rock fell on his mate (? Butler) on the face at Brynkinallt. Dad was working next to him. They struggled to get the rock off him for a long time but he'd been crushed to death.
Dad refused to arrange for us go down Ifton pit when it was opened for visiting. He didn't want us to see the conditions under which he worked.
JL
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Any pics of the pit JL?I couldn't find any searching on the net.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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William,
I can't find any photos of the pit, the nearest I came was a photo of the riot squad on the bank at Brynkyinalt in 1912. Apparently ready to curb any trouble. This photo is in G.C Lerry's book "Collieries of Denbighshire", where incidently there is a photo of the Wynnstay Colliery 1896-1927.
Keith
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Thanks Keith,there was unrest in the coalfield for years leading up to the 1926 strike.I've got quite a few photos of the Wynnstay and its sister pit the Waterloo in Rhosymedre.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Pics of collieries, including Ifton:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/sites/old_photos/pages/coal.shtml?6
:)
Link about Chirk Green and Brynkinalt collieries:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b9o/
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:)
It's a bit late now but I have some photos of my families during the general strike - down at river's meet!
A few stories from my Dad's memories as well - back tomorrow :)
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Thankyou morganllan for the photographs. What a way to earn a living!
Keith
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Hi again
Having trouble finding the photos as I'm having to go through lots of scanned negatives - eyes giving out.
Here,'s one of a group of miners, including Uncle John Oliver b 1887 (second from right). Not sure when it was taken but he doesn't look very old I assume that Alf Pierce is the one with the X on his head.
Do you know of him, Keith?
JL
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...and another one - assume taken at the Chapel on Chapel Lane - I see Dr Salt, old Mr Potter and Uncle John Oliver there. I don't recognise any of the others.
JL
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Here's another one while I'm searching through.
Bottom Row, Chirk Green. Early 1940s.
So much for concessionary coal - after a long shift at the coal face, the miners had to come home and shovel it all into the coal shed :-\
I expect you'd know this person, Keith :)
JL
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JL,
I well remember your Dad. Both your mum and Dad were lovely people.
In the photo of the Chapel group, the only other face I recognise is second from the right. It is Bill Thomas, who lived in the bungalow LHS Lloyds lane. I think he might have been a local magistrate or something like.
Somewhere I've a photo taken in 1947 celebrating either nationalisation of the railways or an anniversary of the GWR coming to Chirk. It is taken at the station and includes all the local worthies including Bill Thomas, as well as the others such as me, Bill, George, Pat and about half of Chirk.
Keith
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My Nain told me that as a young girl she was in a choir that went to sing Christmas carols in a concert for Lord Howard de Walden, at Chirk Castle; must have been ca 1932 :D
I remember the first time I saw those magnificent castle gates, and was especially impressed by the red hand ;D
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I'm sure there was a Chirk Green Chapel but I can't remember where it was :-\
The Methodist Chapel in Chapel Lane is Chirk Green Chapel. I've been there quite a few times over the years. I'm told it still has 2 services on Sunday and a lot of other activities such as fellowship and lunch club. There used to be a pub called Plasywaun next door, not that I ever went there ;) ;D
There's a Chapel at Chirk Bank too.
Is the old oak still there?
Morgan
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Not sure about the old oak, Morgan, but that dedication was at the chapel that we're talking about - nearly all of my Roberts line went there - my little family were C of E because my paternal Gran (nee Mates) and my Mum were.
Cousin Janet's line were C of E also :) It's very interesting how a family's religious affiliations changed in just 1-2 generations.
Your Mum's friend (my cousin) were Prims, (I think) - i'm sure they went to the Station Rd Chapel.
Be back later - eyes are really hurting :'(
JL
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Hello Keith and any other interested parties :)
I've just been browsing on the old maps web site and found an interesting \os map that pinpoints the location of some of the old mine shafts, the original RC Chruch and the Children's Hospital.
Go to www.old-maps.co.uk
* Enter Chirk Green in the location.
* select the 1954 Pre-WW11 1:10 500 (partial coverage)
* Select Enhance Zoom and then enlarge and wonder around to some favourite haunts
JL
PS - just looked at an older map and discovered that the original Brynkinallt colliery shafts are located to the east of where the old allotments were at the top of Chirk Green :o
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Hello JL,
Thankyou for the Old Map web site. Am just about to wander around the Chirk I remember.
Keith
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While you're there, Morgan has found out that your friend, who still lives in Chirk, thinks that the Jummer was what Chirk Green Farm was once called!
But I don't know where the Jummer in Jummer's Farm came from :-\
JL
PS - I've found a Margery Jummer who got married in Somerset in 1635 ???
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The 1841 census has 5 instances of Jummer: in Cheltenham and Finsbury
In 1851, there were 12 - London, Birmingham, Lancashire
None after that (not even for variations of name) -where did they all go ???
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JL and Morgan,
I think you have pre-empted my next question. The Jummer's Hole I remember from about 1947 was sited opposite the Bottom Row between the two entrances to the farms run by Kate and Garnett Ellis and (I think) Davies.
It consisted of a large hemispherical dome, built of brick and covered with soil making it appear as a hillock. The council decided to demolish it and my father had the job. I remember standing inside it but never asking what it was for. If Chirk Green Farm was called Jummers then perhaps this was intended as some form of out-building used for storage.
Incidently, I'm having a great time looking at the old maps of Chirk but am unable to see the two entrances to the farms I mentioned. Was Chirk Green Farm divided into two at some time?
Many thanks for your help, much appreciated.
Keith
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Hi Keith
This is from memories of over 60 years ago -i must have been a little girl of 2-3 when I used to be running in and out of Garnett's to talk to Aunty Kate and get her to teach me Scottish dancing (I think she and her sister Jessie came from Perthshire - I'll check them up as a project for this year!).
Anyway, as far as I can remember, Garnett's was more a small holding to the east (uphill) of the main farm. I have a picture in my mind of their backyard with turkeys and chickens.
The main farm was much bigger. Mum used to tell the tale of running across one of Davies's fields (a short cut from the Cottage Hospital) with a bull chasing her. I think she had my sister with her as well :o
Also, can you tell me the name of the man that Jessie married, please, as I can't find Garnet(t) and Aunty Kate's marriage and I need their maiden surname to chase up Aunty Kate's line
JL
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Hi JL
The location of the Ellis small holding you mention makes sense. Now you mention the turkeys I can also remember them. He must have kept more than fowl though, since I have a memory of someone ploughing the top field with a horse drawn plough and assumed it was Garnett but of course it is more likely to have been someone from the Davies farm. If he did have the small holding it would explain him working as a postman to supplement his income.
I can't remember the name of Jessie's husband, I think it may have been Harry, or perhaps that was a son. If you can contact my friend in Chirk I'm sure he will know.
Keith
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I think most of the land belonged to the Davieses. Mum and Dad were great friends of Alice and Ross Jones of Highfield Farm which was above those top fields and I'm sure I remember Ross talking about Davies - I don't think there was much love lost between Ross and Davies. Also, I have this feeling that the Davieses didn't mix with the rest of us ;D
Well, for what it's worth, I've found Garnett's death reg - June quarter 1975, Wrexham as Charles Garnett Ellis. He was born 16 Sep 1902.
He was deaf all the time that I knew him.
As we're an inquisitive lot, we'll no doubt have all of Chirk sorted before we're through ;D
Gadget
PS - so sad that all these folk are now long gone :'(
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Hmmmmmmm that Gadget pops in every so often, doesn't she ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)
This is his birth registered as George Garnett Ellis, Sept, q, 1902, Elham, Kent, 2a, 1143
He is with his family in Chirk later on. His mother was Irish.
Found the marriage in Scotland - and you don't see many of these as they married by declaration rather than that old formal stuff - good old Aunty Kate 8)
17 July 1926 - 36 High Street,Perth by declaration in the presence of Edward Richie, 3 Union Street, ?, Perth and Jessie Mowat, Marl Lodge, Ochtertyre, Crieff
Charles Garnett Wadsworth Ellis, 24, Postman of 109 Chirk Green, Chirk, Denbighshire
and
Catherine Mowat, 27, domestic servant of Marl Lodge, Ochtertyre, Crieff
Garnett's parents were William Henry Ellis, coal miner and Annie m.s. O'Neill
Kate's were James Mowat, mechanical engineer and Helen m.s. McIntosh
Warrant of Sheriff Substitute of Perthshire, dated July 17th 1926
Oh, this will keep me interested for a long time :D
JL
(Aunty Kate was fond of her drams :-X )
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And for the record, Aunty Kate told porkies (a wee bit!)
1901
17 Church Street, Govan, Lanarkshire
Mowatt
James, 26, Traction Engine Driver, b. Kincardineshire, Glenbervie
Helen J, 26, b. Kincardineshire, Kinneff
David B, 7, b. -do-
Catherine, 3. -do-
Gordon, 2, -do-
JL
(she taught me to do Scottish dancing at that age - bless :) )
Just found that Kinneff was close to Catterline where Joan Eardley did some of her fantastic sea paintings :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Eardley
PS - sister Jessie D(algleish) Mowatt married a Robert Jones
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So Garnett lived in Chirk Green before taking on the small holding. Curious that he should have ended up in Chirk having been born in Kent. I've been to Eltham, looked pretty prosperous (and the Palace is well worth a visit.) and what was he doing in Scotland?
He was our village postman, hard of hearing, Sam Halman covered Chirk Bank, Gledrid and Oakland Road and thereabouts. Mrs Edmund Rowlands covered the Castle and all stops to the Kennels. I can't recall whose round took in Pontfaen & the Fisheries. The postmaster at the time was Raymond Jones who had taken over the new post office when it moved from, what later became the Baby Linen shop next to the co-op drapery. He emigrated with wife and daughter to Australia about 1955.
Keith
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From what I can gather, his father was from Flintshire originally. I'm not sure why he was born down there.
I've no recollection of the old Post Office, although my Mum worked there before she married. She was also the telephonist and used to enjoy listening in to the odd conversations between the 'posh' of the village ;D :-X
I do remember the shop when it was the Baby Linen - all that wool, patterns, etc. Can't remember what it became afterwards but it was certainly still that in the late 1950s.
I've just discovered a photo of me on or near Jummer's Hole that Uncle Darrel must have taken.
Just wondering if it could be anything to do with a possible air raid shelter. When did your father knock it down?
JL
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Somehow I don't think it was intended as an air-raid shelter, it appeared to be much older than the 1940's, and there didn't seem to be a proper access. I entered by sliding down a couple of feet and dropping through a hole made by my father.
As to when he knocked it down I would guess sometime around 1947/8, possibly a little later. Do you recall the prisoner-of-war camp below the Bottom Row. I remember it being built and the first lot of prisoners-Italian. They seemed to come and go as they wished, worked on local farms and several made very good friends with local girls. After the Italians came the Germans and things changed dramatically. There were a lot more guards with fixed bayonets and the barbed wire was increased. Later came the DP's (displaced persons, mostly Poles, at least one stayed on to live in Chirk). The war had ended then of course and eventually the camp was emptied. My step-grandfather, Tom Turner (you may remember him) had left the pit and worked for the council. He looke after the empty camp and for some reason was given the job of demolishing Jummers Hole.
He was pretty useless at anything other than gardening and my father took on the job since the family was sure Tom would kill himself under a pile of rubble. So that is why I think it was a few years after the war ended.
There were shelters dug into the mount, accessed from the road opposite Ben the Barbers shop. They were never used as far as I know, too many folk were afraid that they would collapse, being cut into the relatively soft clinker.
Keith
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Forgot to ask, "what, if anything can you see of Jummer's Hole" in the photo, and can you remind me who was Uncle Darrel? The name seems familiar.
Keith
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While you're there, Morgan has found out that your friend, who still lives in Chirk, thinks that the Jummer was what Chirk Green Farm was once called!
But I don't know where the Jummer in Jummer's Farm came from :-\
JL
PS - I've found a Margery Jummer who got married in Somerset in 1635 ???
Forgot to ask, "what, if anything can you see of Jummer's Hole" in the photo, and can you remind me who was Uncle Darrel? The name seems familiar.
Keith
was really chuffed when i started reading this conversation as it my parents who now live in chirk green farm now and have done for the past 45 years after Kate and Garnett, it was chirk green farm that cled davies and his wife mary lived in and my parents was chirk green farm cottage which is now called emmadale. i think it was originally one building then split in two, i have just started to do history on the house, would love to find more info on it, im new on here btw :)
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So Garnett lived in Chirk Green before taking on the small holding. Curious that he should have ended up in Chirk having been born in Kent. I've been to Eltham, looked pretty prosperous (and the Palace is well worth a visit.) and what was he doing in Scotland?
He was our village postman, hard of hearing, Sam Halman covered Chirk Bank, Gledrid and Oakland Road and thereabouts. Mrs Edmund Rowlands covered the Castle and all stops to the Kennels. I can't recall whose round took in Pontfaen & the Fisheries. The postmaster at the time was Raymond Jones who had taken over the new post office when it moved from, what later became the Baby Linen shop next to the co-op drapery. He emigrated with wife and daughter to Australia about 1955.
Keith
hi, was wondering if anyone still has photographs of this small holding which garnett lived in as its now my parents home and would love to see some old photographs of how it looked, thanks Donna
Forgot to ask, "what, if anything can you see of Jummer's Hole" in the photo, and can you remind me who was Uncle Darrel? The name seems familiar.
Keith
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My ancestor Thomas James is listed in the censuses as living (1861) at the Gatehouse, Chirk as a Coke burner, in 1871 at Little Gate, Chirk, as a labourer (indecipherable) works, in 1881 at Tyrrawr or Little Gates (labourer at Lime Works) and in 1891 at 5 Wern Cottage, Vron Issa Chirk (labourer in brickyard).
I wonder if all these 'Little Gates' are the same residence and where they stood exactly. I've read that the famous Davies gates were moved to their present position in 1888 from New Hall on the NE boundary, and the half-timbered lodge seen today also dates from this time. But there's also a third smaller disused entrance "Bady's White Gate" in the South East. So I presume my Thomas lived with his family at either New Hall or the SE gate. The dismantling of the Gates in 1888 may correspond with Thomas moving to Vron Issa.
Does anyone know of lime works around there?
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Incidentally his wife was Margaret (nee Williams) and they had 9 recorded children.
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Hello :)
There was Chirk Castle Lime Company at that time. There are some records at the Record Office for the 1862-82 period.
Best Wishes
Morgan
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Hi
For the 18 or so years that I lived in the area, there was the limekiln quarry on the A5 just before you got to Fron, itself. There was a sharp (and dangerous) bend and then the rails going across the road from the lime kiln quarry to the kilns on the other (canal) side .
A bit about it here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0mbg/
It's not far at all from Fron Issa!
gnu
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Wow, that is quite a bit about the Lime Kilns! Thank you Gnu, another resource I wasn't aware of!