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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: sheabear on Thursday 13 January 11 01:44 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am looking for help on finding the birth date and place of birth of Edward Roberts, father of Benjamin Roberts (b. 8 Mar 1896) and also finding Edward's wife's name and birth date/place. I know that they lived in Wales, maybe around Holywell.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Shea
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1901 RG13/5236 folio 169 page 8 Ryll Flintshire
52 Victoria Row
2 families
Jane Hughes widow age 49 charwoman Llandullus Denbighshire
Sarah Jones Married age 25
Gwladys Hughes dau age 4 Ryll
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Edward Roberts age 41 widow farm lab all born Bagillt Flint
William John son age 10
Thomas son age 8
Benjamin Roberts son age 5
Pam
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Thank you Pam.
I am now worried I have the wrong information (birth date) for Benjamin, I think he was actually born in 1899.
Thanks again for your help.
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??
1881 Flint Flintshire reg district Holywell
Edward Roberts age 20 born Bagillt Flintshire collier lodger with the George family
This could be Edward ??
1881 Holywell Flintshire
address Bagillt Road
John Roberts age 53 Ysceifiog Flintshire farm lab
Sarah wife age 54 born Holywell
Thomas son age 25 farm lab Holywell
Edwards Roberts age 20 born Holywell farm lab
Richard son age 18 Holywell farm lab
Sarah A dau age 16 Holywell dressmaker
John son age 13 Grocer appr Holywell
Already written the information of the Roberts will leave it on in case it is correct.
1901 Rg13/ 5212 folio 32 page 55 Connor Quay Flintshire reg district Holywell
Edward E Roberts age 31 Northop coal miner
Maria wife age 30 Belston Staffordshire
Elizabeth E dau age 11 Northop
Harry J son age 9 Northop
Thomas E son age 5 Northop
Hannah dau age 2 Northop
Benjamin Roberts age 7 months born Northop Flintshire[/i]
Regards Pam
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Hello sheabear,
BMD has a marriage in Holywell Registration District in the June quarter 1888, Edward Roberts to Maria Whyte Pring.
I cannot find this on North Wales BMD.
A search on BMD did not reveal a a birth for Maria that ties in with the census details.
The best way to obtain the mother's maiden name is to purchase the birth certificate of one of the children.
Jo
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This may be well off the track , but the only marriages I found for a Edward Roberts to a Maria was Maria Jones Sep 1888 Leigh. And one in Holywell Sep 1888 to Maria White Pring.
Maria Whyte Pring`s birth was registered in Holwyell 1865 so it can`t be her.
Leigh is where many Welsh coal miners went to search for work.
Maria Jones / Roberts is born Bilston Staffs, this must be the same Maria Jones , there can`t be another Elizabeth Plant.
I can`t find them in 1891 after the marriage and birth of Elizabeth E.
1881 Dublin Row Northop.
Henry Jones 40 coalminer b Northop
Ellen Jones 39 b Staffs
Maria Jones 11 b Staffs
Benjamin Jones 9 b Northop
George H. Jones 5 b Northop
Elizabeth Plant 16 adopted child b Staffs
1871 13 Greencroft , Bilston , Staffs
Ellen Jones 29 unm charwoman b Bilston Staffs.
Maria Jones 1 b Bilston.
Elizabeth Plant orphan 6 scholar b Bilston.
Hmmmm, if this is the right Edward and Maria , they were both very young if the 1888 marriage is right.
Best to get a birth certificate for one of the children to make sure.
THIS DOESN`T SEEM TO BE THE CORRECT FAMILY BUT IT WAS INTERESTING FINDING THEM , AND I`LL LEAVE IT POSTED AS IT MIGHT HELP SOMEONE ELSE. :)
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Leigh is where many Welsh coal miners went to search for work.
This confirms why my Holywell family have been to-ing and fro-ing to Leigh, over several census! Thanks for that!
Sorry to butt in on your thread Op, I'm researching Edward Roberts born Whitford married to Mary Elizabeth, but alas no connection to yours I don't think.
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Thanks to all who can contributed. There are so many possibilities and I'm not sure which one I should go with!
The only thing I know about my Welsh Ancestors is Benjamin Roberts had a father named Edward Roberts and that Edward was a Farm Labourer (which was on Benjamin's marriage certificate to Fanny Foster Edwards, which also said they were both living in Connah's Quay). I don't have a birth certificate for Benjamin, but I have his death certificate and it says he died in 1967 aged 69 which would make his birth 1898. I can't buy his birth certificate as I am not sure which Benjamin is correct? The other thing I am 90% sure about is that Benjamin had 2 older brothers who served in the war and were both killed. Benjamin also served in the war in Egypt but came home safely. I had traced two possible families both with Edward as a father and both with older brothers but the one was in Bagillt and that would make Benjamin's birth around 1896 which is too young (but Edward was stated as being a widow and a farm laborer) and the other family had an Edward and Maria as the parents but they had sisters as well as brother which i don't think is correct, and Benjamin's birth was 1900 which also doesn't seem right.
Thanks again to all who are trying to help, it is greatly appreciated. :)
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The only thing I know about my Welsh Ancestors is Benjamin Roberts had a father named Edward Roberts and that Edward was a Farm Labourer (which was on Benjamin's marriage certificate to Fanny Foster Edwards,
It would be best if you give ALL details you know at first, then it will help find the right one , but the details are there now and may help someone else. :)
If Edward was a farm worker, then it`s not likely to be the one with a wife Maria from Bilston, as he is a coalminer.
The one found by `downunder` seems to fit .
You could ask for the birth certificate of a Benjamin who`s father is a farmworker. If you deal with the local register office they are usually more helpful.
Do you know the names of the brothers who died, they may be on the War Graves site which sometimes has names of parents.
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Sorry for not giving all the information, I didn't do it intentionally.
Unfortunately I don't know the brothers names or where they finally came to rest.
Maybe someone can confirm for me, I can only find two families in the Connah's Quay/Flintshire area that have a Benjamin as the son and an Edward as the father? Both families don't seem to fit as the one where Edward is a widow, Benjamin's birth date doesn't seem right, it should be around 1899 and there it's 1896, they also lived in Ryhl and Benjamin was living and was married in Connah's Quay. The other family has Maria as the mother but the birth date for Benjamin is also off as it is 1900 here, and Edward the father is a coal miner (and I knew he was a farm lab). Is it possible for mistakes to be made with the birth years?
Thanks so much.
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Oh dear, I didn`t mean to sound `harsh` :-[
A birth had to be registered within 6 weeks of it taking place, or there was a penalty.
Free BMD search.
Start date: Mar 1895 End date:Dec 1900
If you are sure of the birthdate March 8 in either. 1896 / 1899 then Free BMD has one choice
This one is not March qtr, but falls within the 6 weeks.
Births Jun 1896 Roberts Benjamin Holywell, 11b 201
The only one anywhere close in dates and area is this one, but if the birth date was March then this is outside the 6 weeks limit.
Births Sep 1900 Roberts Benjamin Holywell 11b 212
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/holywell.html
The age on the death certificate is given by the informant and is only what they believe to be true, they could get it wrong.
As for the census I doubt if a child under 1 year old could be mistaken for a 5 year old.
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I`ve found a tree on Ancestry, Tree owner `SheaCatharineGeber `
Benjamin Roberts, father Edward, mother Maria Roberts. ???
Edward is born 1870, Maria born 1871.
It says 1899 birth certicate bought is wrong. ???
Have you tried 1911 census, he may be still with his father , and possibly the brothers.
You could see if there is an obituary in the papers that may give some information.
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Thanks so much for the information Wilcoxon, and LOL, that tree you found is mine! I am scooting between both families that have Benjamin as a son and Edward as a father, I just can't make my mind up which family it is.
On Benjamin's marriage certificate I have, he was married 21 Feb 1920 and his age on this certificate is 21 years which puts him at a birth year of 1899, and also his death certificate, he died 27 May 1967 (age on death cert 69) which puts him at a birth year of 1898.
Do you think he is that one born in 1896, and why do you think he would lie about his age so much? If he served in the war, I'm not sure how old he was, maybe he started lying about his age before he got married and never told anyone his true age?
Sorry for so many questions, and I thank you so much for your help, I am so lost with this and I just would love to know who he was and follow his linage. :)
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Who were the parents of Fanny Foster Edwards?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Births Jun 1899 Edwards Fanny Foster Holywell 11b 219
Benjamin Roberts (b. 8 Mar 1896)
Just wondering, how do you know this is the correct date.
The marriage took place in Church ,ROBERTS Benjamin , EDWARDS Fanny F , Connah's Quay, St Mark
What are the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert, sometimes they can be family members.
If the Roberts were `Church` then perhaps there will be a baptism in Bagillt Church, and then you can look for other children to cross check the census. It seems it would be St Mary`s.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Bagillt/index.html
I can`t get to a record office to check, but perhaps some kind person might be willing to help.
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The parents of Fanny Foster Edwards were George Edwards and Elizabeth Alice Parry.
My Mum always knew the day and month of Benjamin's birthday but never the year...(I assumed that when I was going between the two families, my information isn't 100% correct on ancestry.com)
The names of the witnesses on the marriage certificate are: William Henry Povall (Fanny's Grandfather) and Bessie Edwards (Fanny's sister).
Thank you. :)
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I thought I may as well `take the bull by the horns` and rang the Mold Register Office for you.
The have confirmed that this is thr right one , by using the birth date.
Births Jun 1896 Roberts Benjamin Holywell, 11b 201
Have sent PM
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I see you were back on yesterday, any comment on what I found, was it of any help. :)
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Yes, I had no time to reply but was very excited to see your message. Thank you so much for your help, just to have it confirmed is fantastic as now I can order the birth certificate like you suggested and go from there. I have been looking for answers for Benjamin for a long time and didn't know how to get them but you have kindly offered your time and help and I greatly appreciate it.
The brick wall has been torn down! :D
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Thanks to a very kind man who took the time to do some look ups, it seems probable that this is your Benjamin.
He found these baptisms which match the names. He didn`t find a marriage in the Church.
Entries taken from the Parish Registers of Bagillt: Baptisms.
No. 1690. June 4th 1891: Robert son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1744. December 15th 1892: William John son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1792. February 28th 1892: Thomas son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
No. 1849. April 22nd 1896: Benjamin son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
There is a chance we may have found a marriage, but I don`t want to post details yet as it will confuse things, it`s best to confirm Annie`s name from the birth certificate and take it from there one step at a time.
1901 RG13/5236 folio 169 page 8 Ryll Flintshire
52 Victoria Row
2 families
Jane Hughes widow age 49 charwoman Llandullus Denbighshire
Sarah Jones Married age 25
Gwladys Hughes dau age 4 Ryll
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Edward Roberts age 41 widow farm lab all born Bagillt Flint
William John son age 10
Thomas son age 8
Benjamin Roberts son age 5
Pam
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Brilliant and very helpful information, thank you to you and the very kind man for his time. I will confirm Annie as the mother as soon as the birth certificate arrives but the baptisms are great as it adds another piece to the puzzle.
Thanks again, I will post details on the birth certificate when I have it. :D
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Details from shebear on the birth certificate.
Benjamin Roberts b. 9 March 1896
Father: Edward Roberts (Gadhp Lane, Bagillt) Farm Labourer
Mother: Ann Roberts formerly Johnson
It was interesting, where Edward was supposed to sign it has a X and it says "the mark of Edward Roberts" - I thought that this was possibly because he couldn't write?
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Johnsons
1891 5 Bull cottage, Bagillt.
Richard Johnson head widower 67 gardener b Malpas b 1824
Annie Roberts M dau 34 b Northop b 1857
Edward Roberts Son law 35 collier b Bagillt
John Johnson son S 18 moulder b Northop
Edith Johnson grand daughter 6 b Northop
Robert Roberts grandson 1 month b Bagillt.
1891 Edward Roberts / Annie Johnson. Civil marriage Holywell. March qtr.
So Annie was pregnant. :o
Where is Annie in the census between 1871 and 1891 ??? At 15/17 she would be old enough to be working away from home but there`s no sign of her. ???
1881 Her family. No Annie ?
RG11; Piece: 5505; Folio: 21; Page: 35 Dublin Row Northop
Richard Johnson 56 ag lab out unemployed b Cuddington
Marthar Johnson 52 b Northop
Richard Johnson unm 18 brickmaker b “
Elizabeth Roberts dau mar 24 b “
Thomas Roberts gr son 5 b “
Maria Roberts 2 gr dau b “
John Williams 8 gr son b “
1871 No Annie ?
RG10; Piece: 5643; Folio: 9; Page: 9
Old Chester Road, New Brighton.
Richard Johnson 48 carter at brewery b Malpas c 1823
Martha Johnson 43 b Flint
Benjamin Johnson 20 unm coalminer b Northop
Elizabeth Johnson 15 b Northop
Martha Johnson 13 b Northop
1861
RG9; Piece: 4272; Folio: 31; Page: 9;
Dublin St Northop
Richard Jonson 36 railway labourer b Malpas c 1825
Martha Jonson 35 b Northop
Benjamin Jonson 9 b Northop
Ann Jonson 7 b Northop 1854
Elizabeth Jonson 5 b Northop
Martha Jonson 2 b Northop
1851
Class: HO107; Piece: 2501; Folio: 239; Page: 4
Pentre Moch Northop
Richard Johnson 26 labourer out of employment b Malpas
Martha Johnson 24 b Northop
John Johnson 3 b Northop
Benjamine Johnson 8 months b Northop
Richard Johnson / Martha Jones married St Eurgain and Peter. Northop 1847.June q
This could be checked in the Church registers for fathers names.
Hopefully Martha`s Dad wasn`t John. ::)
1841 Tattenhall, Malpas, Cheshire.
Richard Johnson 15 male servant Y.
Family search. Batch no C 86603-4 This was found on Pilot site.
Richard Johnson, christened 7th May 1824, born Cuddington / Christened Malpas,
Mother Ellen Johnson. Residence Malpas . No father named. What a shame.
It looks like thats the end of the Johnson trail unless a father is named on the marriage entry to Martha Jones.
Going back to the marriage. It was a civil marriage , so to be sure of Edwards father the certifcate will have to be bought.
1891 Edward Roberts / Annie Johnson. Civil marriage Holywell. March qtr.
But we do know Edward had the middle name Thomas , and there is a birth registration, Dec 1859 Birth. Edward Thomas Roberts, Holywell 11b 46
Problem is there is no Edward Thomas Roberts I can find in the census, so which of the Edward Roberts is the right one. ???
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Wow, amazing information, thank you so much!
So Robert Roberts was Annie and Edwards son? That is extremely useful information as I am also looking for Benjamin Roberts two older brothers that died in the war and I never knew their names. A little shocked Annie was pregnant when she was married, it would have been a big deal back then!
I am confused at Elizabeth Roberts in the 1881 census, did Annie's sister also happen to marry a Roberts and were Thomas and Maria her children?
This may be a silly question, but how do we know Edward's middle name was Thomas? ???
Thanks again for all your help. I am getting married in 6 days so I will have to get my hands into this information when I get back from the honeymoon. I can't wait, you have given me so much to look into. :D
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Edwards full name is given in all the baptisms found .
No. 1849. April 22nd 1896: Benjamin son of Edward Thomas and Annie ROBERTS, Bagillt, father labourer, preformed by R. Owens, vicar.
It looks like Elizabeth Johnson married a Roberts, and possibly another daughter married a Williams. See 1881.
It strikes me as a bit odd that Edward and Annie didn`t marry in Church , but their children were baptised in one, of course they could have been married in a Chapel, that would still be classed as a civil marriage.
I don`t think it was a `issue` that Annie was pregant, there are many illegitimate baptisms in any registers you look at.
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Elizabeth Johnson / Roberts . Still no husband around. ???
Ireland has been added by Elizabeths entry , but I think they are presuming Dublin Ireland, but there is a Dublin, Northop as well. See 1881
I doubt if she was Irish she would be able to speak Welsh ;D
Still no husband at home, but more children born since 1881.
I can`t find a matching Johnson / Roberts marriage ???
1891 RG12; Piece: 4607; Folio 6; Page 6
High St Northop,
Elizabeth Roberts marr 35 living on own means b Flints , Dublin speaks both Engish and Welsh.
Thomas Roberts 15 b Northop
Maria Roberts 10 b "
Richard Roberts 7 b "
Edward Roberts 1 b "
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Very best wishes for your wedding, hope you have a wonderful day.
I think I ve found Annie Johnson in 1881/81 with some help .
1871 RG10; Piece: 3734; Folio: 30; Page: 31
Grocers shop Hawarden
Archibald P Elstoh (n) 23 grocer b Liverpool
James E Hodge 20 painer b Churchtown Lancs.
Arnie ( Annie) Johnston 17 dom servant b Northop.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3564; Folio: 16; Page: 2
Castle stable yard, Hawarden
Charles Cottrell 30 groom b Wiltshire
Sarah Cottrell wife 24 b Maidwell, Northamptonshire
George Cottrell 4 months b Hawarden
Annie Johnson visitor 26 domestic servant b Maidwell, Northamptonshire
Northop sounds like Northampton , could there have been a mistake.
There`s only one similar born in Northampton about the same time but she was not born in Maidwell.
I think the enumerater has got it wrong.