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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Charles IX on Wednesday 12 January 11 13:40 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone
This might be a easy question to answer but I dont know myself, first off can someone tell me the difference between a will and an administraions? Are they the same thing? Because I have found out thanks to the new "Index of wills and administraions 1861-1941" on A******y.com loads of records of my ancestors. What I'd also like to know is if these records mean they left wills how could I obtain a copy of them?
Thanks in advance
Charles
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If someone dies intestate i.e. they do not leave a 'last will and testament' then their affairs need to be wound up in some way. Someone - a relative or perhaps a solicitor - will apply for permission to administer the affairs of the deceased person. This is called a grant of administration. The applicant had to swear that there was no will, that he would pay all the funeral expenses etc, as well as carry out the administration truly and properly. Letters of Administration would then be granted.
To apply for a copy of a will, go to:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm
application form here:
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm
fill in the form and you have to send it off with payment to York.
Postal Searches and Copies Department
The Probate Registry
Castle Chambers
Clifford Street
York YO1 9RG
Nell
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Forgot to say that administration would also apply if there was a will, but the executors named in the will had since died themselves. Some other person/family member would then apply in their stead.
Nell
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I have a great grandmother and great grandfather who died in 1942 and 1945 and their son applied for an administration in January 1947.
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Forgot to say that administration would also apply if there was a will, but the executors named in the will had since died themselves. Some other person/family member would then apply in their stead.
Nell
Letters of Administration cum testamento annexo (with the will annexed) are also granted when the deceased's will does not appoint executors, or when the executors named do not prove the will.
Stan
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Thats all great! Thanks to everyone for getting back so quickly :)
Nell - Is that place in York the only place I could see the wills?
Charles
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The Principal Probate Registry in Holborn London can give you a copy of a will or admon after an hour of placing the order if you visit in person.
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They can be viewed at the Probate registry in Holborn, London
The York address is where to send off for them
All info on
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm
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Great, Thanks! I'll go to that place in Holborn sometime in the next few weeks :)
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You will enjoy it!
Just go armed with death dates of all your ancestors and whizz through seeing who left Wills, or for whom there are Admons.
One tip - the early books have Wills and Administrations listed separately, so you have to look sometimes in 2 books for each year and sometimes in different bits of the same book. After a date (I cant remember when, but the staff there will advise) they are listed together and it all becomes much easier!
I think it closes at 4 or 4.30 so dont get caught out (see the website for detials), and if you want to see the Will there and then rather than order a copy to be sent to you to keep, then you will need to allow an hour or more.
Even if you want to order a copy to be sent, the Cash office usually closes a bit before the office, so no good sneaking up with your order just before 4 (or 4.30 whichever it is) ! I have tried that one and failed!!
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I have been to the Probate Holborn office a few times and plan to go back soon on my trip to London next month. I need a few more will details of ancestors.
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Just to let you know that, currently and at very busy times (almost all the time lately), the one hour service is not readily available at Holborn to those who don't hold a regular readers ticket.
Since the probate calendars went online, the staff at Holborn have been inundated with requests for copies and just can't cope.
If you can get there when they open first thing at 10am and get your orders in by 11, you may be lucky and get some of them back by the end of the day. They are also not accepting more than 3 orders per hour per person.
Be prepared to put your orders in and leave an addressed envelope, which they will supply, and have to wait 21 days for the post.
There appears to have been little or no collaboration between Ancestry and the Probate office and the implications for everyone of putting the calendars online.
The calendars at Holborn are complete from 1858 to approximately 1 week before.
Dawn
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I recently acquired a copy of probate records from Ancestry.com
Is the information exactly the same i would get from http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm? I have never ordered a copy of a will before and would seem a waste of time and money if it is only the same as what is on the Ancestry web site?
The probate record i have from Ancestry on mentions few pound that was left to a son. I just found it funny that the exact same amount was left twice, once by the father and the second time by the mother. Both amounts to the same son too?
J.D.
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Hi J.D, Wills can be brilliant but you never know what you'll get,but it's usually more than is indicated from the description in the index.Sometimes everything is left to the executor but even that can throw up surprises, for example I got a Will where the testator was described as an iron puddler but also mentioned any money that might be owed to him as a grocer.
Also before a certain date,which I can't remember off the top of my head,the value of real estate isn't included so I've come across estates valued at less than £20 but they've left houses.
Edited just checked and it was up to 1898 that the noted value was for personal estate only.
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JD
What you get for your £5 is a print of the office copy of the will. On earlier wills this will be where a clerk has copied the text of the will into a ledger, on later wills a photocopy of the original document.
No way of know how much or how information is in a will until you buy it. Always ask for the grant as well, no extra cost, but sometimes gives executors addresses and suchlike.
Administrations are rarely worth buying (unless with will) as these normally only show the same details as the calendar book entry.
The service at Holburn was a mess before Ancestry put the calendar books online. Pot luck as to whether the 1 hour service is 1 hour or 3.
My bugbear is the staff do not bother to adjust the reduction when copying different sized ledgers so you end up with acres of white space around tiny handwriting.
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Hi Angelfish & Bill Ellson, many thanks for your replies.
I think i understand what you mean now.
Can i order the two probate ( Wills ) on line or do i have to find the nearest office to me?
J.D.
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If you go to www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm and scroll down the page to "What does it cost" there's a downloadable form,fill it in,send it off to York and in about 4 weeks you should get your copy.It's taking a bit longer than normal since the index went on-line.
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Many thanks Angelfish, i will give it a go and it is only £5 so won't brake my bank ( my daughter says i spend to much on this hobby of mine as it is)
J.D.
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You're welcome :) I hope you aren't disappointed.
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You're welcome :) I hope you aren't disappointed.
Hi, i am afraid to say i was :(
There was nothing more than what i had from ancestry web site probate records
What a waste of a tenner ( paid for two wills )
J.D.
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That's such a shame. Trouble is you never know if you're going to just get "I leave everything to my wife" or a detailed list of possessions and people.
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Oh! well it is nice to know at least one family had something to leave others, even if it was only a few pounds.
Put me off buying any other i may come across.
J.D.
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The calendars usually include an estate valuation.
You could use that to determine whether it is worth your while purchasing anymore.
Dawn
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Hi, just to add that I obtained a copy of a Will from the Liverpool Office of HMCS in 4 working days from their receipt of my application. I was fortunate to have the date of death etc for the request. When I phoned they gave 21 working days from receipt as their standard. Obviously probate had been granted at this court. The HMCS website gives the addresses of the 'sub districts'. If one of yours has had probate granted in a sub district it would be worth phoning them to see if they hold the copy. I was extremely impressed with the efficiency of the service. It cost £5. Lets hope that the others I have sent for come as quickly!
Regards
Kathb