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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ppym on Tuesday 11 January 11 18:29 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for a William and Johana Murphy, both born in Limerick (1831 and 1839 respectively). The area is not known. They went to Liverpool to live and are shown in the 1871 census return where William is listed as a shoemaker.They do not appear in any previous census returns there.
They had 2 children,Margaret,9yrs and John 7yrs.
Does anyone have such a William Murphy lurking in their records.
What was Johanna's maiden name?
Where did they come from?
Are there any relatives left?
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks, P Pym
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Son John aged 7 in 1871 becomes John aged 3 in 1881. Birthplace is still shown as Ireland though
It could mean either of the following:
Enumerator error (it is a very clear 3 on the image)
The first John died between 1871 - 1876
The only death that fits completely with John's age was in 1880 but it can't be him as the younger John was b 1877/78
The only other one died 1872 aged 10
If they did have another son born in Liverpool - his birth cert will have Johanna's maiden name
RG11 Piece 3646 Folio 128 Page 25
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The births of William and Johana are well before the start of full civil registration in Ireland in 1864, so you would need to check for available parish records to locate any details for them. To do this you would need to know where they came from in Co. Limerick ... ideally the parish. (I assume they were Catholic ?)
If John's birth was in 1864 he may have just made it into civil records..
see: Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Since Murphy was a very common surname in Ireland you would probably need some more clues to try to locate the correct family. Maybe the place to start would be with the birth cert for one of the children born in England, as this would give you Johanna's maiden surname.
do you think they married in England or Ireland ?
Shane
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it appears from the birthplace details mentioned by CaroleW's for John that the couple probably married in Ireland before moving to Liverpool. If they were Catholic that means they probably missed out on Civil registration... although that depends on those two children named John...
I was going to suggest looking for a marriage in England as that would have given you father's for the bride and groom
Shane
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Hi Shane
Both children were born in Ireland so marriage was probably there.
Because of the age difference between William and Johanna - I checked freebmd in case she was a second wife but there is nothing in England/Wales in Liverpool
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here's the family in Liverpool in 1871 for reference :
RG10 / Piece 3796 / Folio 62 / Page 60
Husband William age 40, shoemaker, born Limerick
wife Johana, age , bookbinder
dau Margaret, age 9, scholar
son John, age 7, scholar
Place of birth is 'dittoed' for the Johana and the children.
Shane
English census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Shane
son John, age 3, scholar
John is shown as aged 7 in 1871
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Hi Shane
son John, age 3, scholar
John is shown as aged 7 in 1871
my mistake ... that's what I get for looking at the two returns at the same time..
Shane
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Many thanks Carole and Shane.
You certainly know your way around!
I had missed the second boy called John..thanks for that.
I think that they were probably married in Ireland. The more recent families were all Protestant but an RC connection cannot be ruled out of course.
I was hoping that the less common name of Joana would be of some assistance given that Murphy is sucha high volume name. I will give it some thought..there has to be a way through somewhere.
Thanks for your help. Regards, Pauline
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have you found any of the family on later census returns ?
sometimes you can be lucky and get a more detailed place of birth to narrow down the search in Ireland.
p.s. did William & Johanna have any children born in England ?
Shane
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Shane, I haven't gone in that direction yet. I have just found an Irish record for a John born 26.5.1864 in Newcastle District, Limerick but to a Patrick Murphy and Joanna Lewis. Margaret did not show up though. I was wondering if William was a second husband, which prompted this search. Pauline
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Shane, I haven't gone in that direction yet. I have just found an Irish record for a John born 26.5.1864 in Newcastle District, Limerick but to a Patrick Murphy and Joanna Lewis. Margaret did not show up though. I was wondering if William was a second husband, which prompted this search. Pauline
I presume that was from the extracted records on familysearch ?
Margaret was born c1862,.... so before the start of full civil records (1864), which were used to generate that collection, so she would not be included.
That record you found sounds like it might be worth following up...
Shane
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sorry - misunderstood your point about the father being Patrick instead of William..
It's possible that John was born before the start of civil registration, and it's also worth noting that the extracted records on familysearch do not cover all areas, so might not include the correct area for your Murphys.
It's definitely worth following the family forward (any one of the Irish born) on the census to see if a more detailed place of birth is mentioned.
Murphy being the most common surname in Ireland at that time does help things..
Shane
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Shane, yes I think it may be worth pursuing. I was thinking that the trade of shoemaker is not one that is learnt overnight and is quite often passed on from father to son in times gone by. With that in mind I looked up the Slaters Directory for 1846 in Limerick and found..surprise surprise..a Patrick Murphy boot and shoemaker in Mary Street!
It may be a complete red herring but mistakes are quite often made with names. the only problem then remains the census being a William. The plot thickens. Pauline
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Hi Shane, I think I may have got somewhere with yesterday's query.
There is a death of a Joanna in 1881 in Liverpool. This would have enabled William to re-marry. The 1881 census showed that there was a William and Lopana Murphy with a daugh. Margaret (now 19) and a son John (3). At first this seems a little unlikely but if there was an error and the son was 3 mths not 3 yrs it could fit. It is always likely of course that at 17 yrs. the first son had left home. It is not unusual for the same name to be used repeatedly even if the name is already in use.There are a lot of coincidences. Am I dealing with 1 or 2 Murphy families?
Secondly; Johanna Murphy was shown as a bookbinder..a skilled occupation and therefore one that she may well have learnt from her parents. A look in dirctories in Limerick shows a bookbinder called Grogan. My g.g. grnd father was John Grogan Murphy..he would have been the first son mentioned in the 1871 census, hence I think he was away from home in 1881
Again it is not unusual for a surname to be used as a second name in order to keep a family name 'live'. This would suggest that joanna's maiden name may have been Grogan.
I would value your opinion. Regards, Pauline
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Hello Pauline,
I had a look at this last evening but had nothing more to offer at the time- couldn't find the family in later censuses.
However, there are a couple of things arising from your post.
I think (and thought it last night) that Lopana is a mistranscription of Johanna. I just checked and still think that.
Also, I think she was a boot binder in 1871, which would fit with her husband's occupation of shoemaker.
On the other hand, the Grogan connection sounds good. :)
May I ask, are these people definitely your ancestors?
thanks
Heywood
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Hi Heywood, yes. My father was called William M,his father was also a William but his father was a John Grogan M and his father was William married to Johanna.
I have checked an re-checked the linkages and they appear to stand scrutiny. Also much of it ties in with the family scuttlebutt e.g. the family originally came from Limerick. (interstingly my maternal g/mthrs side is supposed to have some connection with the family associated with George Henry Lee's. So far that stands up too)
I like your suggestion about the misspelling..why didn't I think of that?
many thanks for assistance. I think the Irish connection will take alittle while to fathom out. To date I have drawn a blank and w/out Johanna's maiden name it will be all the more difficult. Regards, Pauline
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This may be a coincidence but there is a marriage for a John Grogan Murphy in 1875 to Rose Armstrong.
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The possible Grogan link does look worth following up.
In my experience the of passing down a Maiden name down to a child, or sometimes through several generations, is generally a non-Catholic tradition. There may of course be exceptions, but I've only seen this in Church of Ireland and Presbyterian families.
Shane
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The wedding I mentioned was a Catholic one.
He seems to be in 1881 with wife Rose and girls as John G Murphy.
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When was your John Grogan born? Where do you have him on censuses, Pauline?
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Hi Shane and Heywood, John Grogan shows up with a brood of 6 children in the 1901 census married to a Rose...hence the Armstrong connection.
The family as far as I know was a Protestant one, certainly my father , though not anti-Catholic refused to have me baptised a Catholic although mother would have liked that.
John Grogan is shown in1901 as being 8yrs therefore born c.1843
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Hello,
he's the one I mean.
His marriage is on the Liverpool History Projects site
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/
1875- married at St Francis Xavier Church.
In 1891 he is born Dublin and Rose is born Tyrone.
Do you have his father as William from his marriage certificate?
He can't be the same John of 1871 with William and Johanna. John G is too old.
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Hi Heywood, he also shows up in the 1881 census at 35 Gregson Street. I have only just found the marriage in 1875.I have found a death for Rose in 1885. I take your point about the age differential ..obviously I have been chasing a wild goose..or is is a red herring?
I will explore the other 2. Thanks it may prove to be more fruitful.Pauline
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It is hard with a name like Murphy though.
Not sure what you mean by the death in 1885 - Rose is alive in 1901 isn't she?
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Anne Catherine's baptism is also on LHP site - 1890 at Sacred Heart Church so the family were Catholic in those days.
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Hi Heywood, sorry my fault..looking at something else entirely,. Who is Anne Catherine. I have a Catherine but no A Catherine. P
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She is the daughter who is 9 months old in 1891 census. I am worried now that I am not with the right family :-\
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Heywood, Its OK I'll check. I need to do so anyway cos I think it shows Mary as Mary S in the 1891,. There appears to have been one or two extras who have been born and lost between cencuses along the way. I am looking at the 1901 at the moment.
The Liverpool Projects site is a good one!
Thanks ever so for your help. I am relatively new to this sort of history, I am normally involved with medieval stuff, a different ballgame entirely. P
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I think we are on two different families here - no Mary :-\
1901 RG13; Piece: 3484; Folio: 161; Page: 10
John G is transcribed as Joan G.
1891 RG12; Piece: 2987; Folio 49; Page 5
John G is transcribed as John H
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Hi Heywood, you are right. I am going back to square 1 with John Grogan and start again. Thanks for the Liverpool projects link . Ithinkthat one will be very useful in the future. P
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It's a pleasure and good luck.
I think the one I gave you does follow on from 1881-1901 - children and occupation. So if this is your William's father and you are sure of that - then it is probably wise to begin again.
William's marriage certificate may help and then a birth cetificate. There were a couple of John and Rose Murphys so it is essential that you get as much evidence as possible.
good luck
heywood
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Heywood, thanks ever so much for your help. I really apprecaite it. If i track them down I will let you know. Take care, God Bless. P
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Pauline,
I am sure you will track them down - you have John G's marriage details and if you haven't already got it- get the certificate.
Presumably you have William's marriage as you knew about John Grogan.
It will be difficult going back further than John G but if you get hsi father's name from the marriage certificate, you will have something further to search with.
Please do update when you have anything
heywood :)
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Hi List. Just noticed this posting -- hope I'm not too late for the dance :)
I've got a person by the name of Johanna Murphy born 1857-1860 supposedly in Liverpool.
Her marriages in 1877 and 1889 say her father was William Murphy, shoemaker. She does not appear on the census of the William & Johanna Murphy being discussed but she is living with her aunt, Agnes PARREY, and her children in 1871 Kirkdale. Agnes indicated she was born in Waterford, Ireland.
Is my Johanna Murphy part of the same William & Johanna Murphy family?