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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: Violetta on Saturday 25 July 09 00:43 BST (UK)
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Help! New to all this research1 looking for help re George Smith and family . All found in 1851 census. Lost track of them after that e.g. couldn't find in later censuses. Particular interest in son John. Can.t find anything re George and family in parish records. George was owner of the farm in Ladykirk (800 acres in 1851.) His grandson was my grandfather who married and lived in Norham. This geneology is quite addictive and so interesting!
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
With a surname like Smith - we need all the help we can get. We always need birthplaces and birthyears to help us find people on censuses
You haven't given any details as to when and where George was born or any details of his wife and children
Can you post FULL detail of the family from the 1851 census
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Hi and welcome from me also :)
My searches for Ladykirk Farm suggest that it was in Berwick upon Tweed which is in Northumberland rather than Berwickshire. Is there another farm by that name in Berwickshire?
The parish of Ladykirk is in Berwickshire though :-\
As Carole says, the more information that you can give, the better.
Regards
Gadget
added - just found on the OS map an 'Old Ladykirk Farm Steading' just north of Ladykirk - maybe that's it
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They are in Ladykirk, Berwickshire on the 1851:
Ladykirk ED 2 Page 1
George, aged 40, is down as being b. in England , as was his wife, Grace.
Have you checked for marriages in England?
Gadget
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Thanks for such quick replies. Ladykirk is not in Berwick on Tweed. To my knowledge it is in Scotland. I will check this.Re Census George 40 in 1851 so born 1811? He was married to Grace Ann 39 at census. Both these born in England. Children including stepdaughter of George all born in Scotland. Names are :George 11 yrs, James W 9 yrs, John (my great grandfather) 7yrs, Mary W 3yrs,Christian (girl) 2yrs,Robert 3months. Step daughter Helen Young (do,t know if wife widow before marriage) age 17 yrs. I found reference to Grace and son George in 1841 census. Found Helen young too but she was in Coldingham at the time the census was taken.
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Hi :)
Think our last messages crossed.
Have you checked for George and Grace's marriage in England as that is where they say they were born?
Gadget
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No. Wasn't sure how to go about it as didn.t know date. i could make qualified guess at this .
Thanks
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As you say - they seem to disappear after 1851. No deaths showing on Scotlands People for them and I don't see them in England either :-\
Eyes are a bit sore at the moment but will do some more searches tomorrow :).
Gadget
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These are the full 1851 details - all children were b Ladykirk - including stepdaughter Helen Young so it looks as though they married in Berwick and that Grace was nee Young. ither Grace had been married previously or Helen was illegitimate
George Smith 40 farmer b England
Grace Ann 39 b England
George 11
James W 9
John 7
Mary W 3
Christean 2
Robert 3 Months
Helen Young 17 step daughter b Ladykirk
The following were all servants
Mary Haswell 38
Jessie Laidler 21
Ann Brown 19
George Thomson 22
John Leitch 73
Ladykirk ED 2 Page 1 Line 15
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This is a submitted IGI entry www.familysearch.org
HELEN YOUNG Birth: 11 NOV 1833
Christening: 30 DEC 1833 Ladykirk, Berwick
Father: DAVID YOUNG Mother: GRACE ANNE WHITE
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Found the baptism of Helen Young 30th Dec 1833, Ladykirk
Parents - David Young and Grace Anne White
Gadget
Snap Carole - server is being slow at the moment!
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DAVID YOUNG Spouse: GRACE ANN WHITE
Marriage: 30 DEC 1830 Norham Northumberland
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Possible birth for Grace 7 June 1811, Norham
Parents - James White and Mary Nicholson
added - names fit with her chiildren
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In 1841 - Grace was living with son George aged 1 in Ladykirk but no George snr and no Helen so they married before the 1841 census
Ladykirk ED 2 Page 2 Line 855
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Nothing showing for their marriage on SP so far - haven't tried Northumberland.
Gadget
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Thankyou all so much!! I'm sure you're both right about Grace and Helen . How do you do it so fast. I would have taken days to find all this up - if I ever could!
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Very interesting - on Helen's baptism entry it says:
Helen, daughter of Mr David Young, farmer at New Ladykirk...........etc
Mr isn't used lightly in the kirk records!
I wonder if this was the same farm?
We need to find your John though, don't we.
Gadget
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Just noticed that the address on the 1841 where Grace is living is New Ladykirk so it looks as if George might have taken over the farm.
I can't find a will for David in Scotland to give an idea of his death date.
Gadget
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1871 Census
Farm House, Ancroft, Northumberland
RG10/5180/7/ 8
Smith
James, W, 29,farmer, b. Scotland
Grace A, mother,wid, 59, b. Norham
Christian, sister21, b. Scotland
John, brother, 17, b. Northumberland, Loanend
Angnes Mackie, cousin, 32, b.Bamburgh
Eleanora Tait, 21, general servant, b. Berrington
Margaret Forsythe, 26, -do-, b. Ford Hill
Gadget
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:)
1861 Census
17 Ancroft, Northumberland
RG9/3884/65/ 4
Smith
George, 50, farmer of 1080acres, b. Noham
Grace A, 49, b. Norham
George, 21,caol runner, b. Scotland, Note - Coal Owner!
James W, 19, solicitors clerk, b.Scotland
Christian, 12, b. Scotland
Robert, 10, b. Norham
John, 7, b. Norham
plus 6 staff and servants
Gadget
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I didn't see a birth/baptism for George Smith in Norham but you might want to look through the images of the Bishops Transcripts for Norham here:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;c=1309819;t=browsable;w=0
It's not indexed so it means a thorough search.
Note that Norham was a parish of Durham in those days, although in present day Northumberland .
Gadget
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George Smith and Grace Ann Young married, Norham, 19th March 1839
IGI extracted record
Gadget
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Thankyou so much. Re Ancroft what was George juniors profession - didn.t understand that and also John was aged 7 in the 1851 census too.
John married Anne patterson approx born Allanton Scotland 1863. Scandal as she was working in the Mason's arms Norham and pregnaant with my grandfather George.John was virtually cut off from his family as a result and hence we know so little about the Smiths .
I presume George Senior died between 1851 1nd 61.
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The marriage cert for George Smith and Grace Ann Young is:
March q, 1839, Berwick vol 25 page 7. This would give George's father's name and occupation
Occupation of George is coal runner. I got the o and a transposed (laptop and fingers). I'm not sure what it is.
I'll check again on John but this is definitely the same family as on the 1851.
Gadget
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My mistake George was still alive 1861.
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My poor English. Anne patterson born 1863!
John Smith living at Birch Hill Norham age 39 born 1852 living with widow his sister Christian Nicholson. the Nicholson sounds familiar Could this be Georges brother?
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John is definitely son, aged 7 in 1861 and brother, aged 17 in 1871
Could the first one have died?
Do you have his marriage cert to say his father was George Smith, farmer?
I'll see if I can find the death entry for George.
Gadget
Christian would be his sister b.c. 1849, Ladykirk
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Unfortunately there are two deaths for a George Smith in the Berwick Registration District 1861-1871 so it's difficult to say which one he is:
June q, 1861, Berwick,v 10b, p 224
Mar q, 1862, Berwick, v. 10b p 219
Gadget
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No I don't have certificate. Also have been confused about the Johns as there was mention before of John born ancroft but I knew that there was an older John living at Ladykirk in 1851. this second John's age would tie in better because Christian was 42 at Birch Hill.
Had it been John no.1 he would have been older than her. I had wondered about this.
There could be a death certificate for John 1 born 1844 I was surprised how old he was when I started research.
I
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Where did you go to find the death reistrations?
You can see what an amateur I am!
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There are quite a few John Smith's dying in the Berwick RD between the 1851 census and when John (2) was born.
You'd have to search through the Bishops Transcripts that I gave the reference to in a previous message.
I've not checked Scotland for a death but I must now say Goodnight as it's 3.41 am here and I'm dropping asleep :)
Gadget
Registrations for Eng and Wales :
www.freebmd.org.uk
Scotland: www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Grace's mother was a Nicholson so Christian could have married her cousin !
John and Christian had also lived at 93 main Street and the police house together. Perhaps her dead husband had been a policeman. All supposition!
Thanks again for all the help. I will carry on tomorrow.
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Hello Violetta,
If you go to Mike Simpson's site at http://tinyurl.com/ltg4eh you will find the Norham Church Memorial Inscriptions. The Smith family are represented, and this should answer some of your questions.
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It will save a lot of looking through the BTs, jora :)
Re Christian Smith/Nocholson.
She must have married between 1881 and 1891 because she is on the 1881 census in Norham, aged 30, and unmarried on RG11/5132/53/19 but by 1891 she is a widow: RG12/4269/116/13
Gadget
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Thank you Gadget and Jora.
I have a lot to work on now. It will certainly be a project.
Ancroft is near Etal in the Borders a fair way from Lady kirk. I wonder why they moved? Something to do with Georges death perhaps.
Again a big farm.
My mother remembers talk of Ancroft and a farm there. Overwhelmed by all the help I've been given.
Will continue later today. Overwhelmed by all the help!
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When I was coming up here (North of Scotland) yesterday from Newcastle, we passed a sign post for Ford and Etal on the Wooler/Coldstream road . I remembered it from a request a while ago.
If all goes well, I'll see if I can take some photos of that area for you when we go back on Friday :)
I still can't find a marriage for Christian(and variations) and <unknown.> Nicholson, 1881-1891. I'll keep looking.
Gadget
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Gadget,
George Junior -my Grandfather, b 1892, worked on the Etal estate as a joiner and lived in Ford village. I do know the area - went there as child. It is worth a visit . Thanks for offer of photos. Would like that.
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Ancroft is near Etal in the Borders a fair way from Lady kirk. I wonder why they moved? Something to do with Georges death perhaps.
Again a big farm.
Hi
George was living Ancroft in the 1861 before he died. The places, Ladykirk, Norham and Ancroft, aren't all that far apart:
Click for Map (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=389660&y=648620&z=130&sv=389660,648620&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=703&ax=389660&ay=648620&lm=0)
Gadget
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In case of interest as you have done so much work -
George Junior with Anne Smith (mother) and
John with Anne and baby George
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Rather large- sorry not too hot with the computer! :-\
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I live more or less on the spot - if you want photographs of the gravestones I can easily pop along and get them for you. The map and transcript of the inscriptions on display in the church - it makes it easy to find the ones you want, provided they are still standing!
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Lovely photos, Violetta. It's nice to see what the people that one has chased up on censuses, etc. look like :)
Gadget
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Thankyou. Yes photos of gravestones would be brilliant.
I will have to try and find out which ones!
Gadget. Looked at old parish records from link. I don't have time to go through all at meoment . Nothing I could fine for babtism of George Snr or wife Grace,
Found reference to Nicholson Family and birth of son in1812also burial of Philis Smith 1812.
It's asy to get diverted!
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Thanks jora the link to church has paid off dividends. As you have both put in so much work you may be interesred. First page of Smiths nos. 4 and 5.
If you could photograph those to start with I would be grateful. Going to look through rest of Smith references.
John 2 died 1896 aged 42. Have been told he died of pneumonia after a shooting expedition
Will try to find his birth records. Were there birth certificates then?
Now know more about George snr will try to find out his parentage.
The White in children's names also may be significant.
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A birth registration should be showing on www.freebmd.org.uk for John (2)
Reg District would be Berwick
Gadget.
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Sorry - deleted my post - replied to page 1 - didn't see the other pages!
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Thanks for replying anyway. Your interest in itself is enough!
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Gadget
Re my query abouy 'coal runner' .H ;)e was in fact a Coal Owner'. There was a mine at Scremeston - just outside Tweedmouth.
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;D
looked like runner to me! I was on my laptop at 2.30 am with poor lighting. Now I see it on my normal screen in daylight, it's definitely Owner ::)
I've made an addendum to the entry
Gadget
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Yes I did the same and looked at it in good daylight.
Is it normal to have 4 different years of birth for someone?
The various censuses all had different years. Can the church headstones be trusted or is it best to see the birth certificate?
Christian's first date was when she swa 2 1851 census and I would think that would be the most reliable.
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Hi Violetta :)
It's fairly common for ages on different censuses to differ and some ages on monumental inscription to be wrong.
My Kirkcudbrightshire ancestors were really experts at age changing on censuses, whereas my Welsh ones were pretty honest (not sure what that says about either ::) )
I've got few MIs in my family but on one an age is obviously way out - it suggests that one of my ancestors had a child when she was 64 (this in 1793!). The fault was either the mason's or the person who supplied the information to the monumental mason as she was definitely the mother.
Gadget
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I guessed as much. Now looking into George Snr family.
Church inscriptions are proving valuable.Found William S c1813 could have been G's brother.
He died at Thornton Park 9.11.1901 aged 88 and he was married to a Nicholson! Could have been one of Grace Annes Cousins.
It all gets more intriguing.
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Keeping the land in-house ;)
You seem to have got to grips with them now :D
Give a yell if you need any further help/advice.
Gadget
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Yell...
You gave me ref for marriage of George/ Grace.
How do I get to see it?
Can I pay to see it on line or do I have to contact Berwick?
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The marriage cert for George Smith and Grace Ann Young is:
March q, 1839, Berwick vol 25 page 7.
You could try those unindexed Bishop's Transcripts for free :
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=imageBrowser;c=1309819;w=442
or:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
This will cost £7 for the certificate
Gadget :)
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Hi
I've been plodding through the Norham BTs. The marriage should be around page 225-226 but I can't find them. They seem to have just baptisms and burials for 1839. It should be 16th March 1839 according to the IGI.
Maybe my eyes are giving out for the night!
Gadget
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I did that too. No luck. I've ordered the b.c.
. I have come to a dead end with George snr father.
Hopefully info on certificate.
I am going to look up anything about william Smith now, who could be his brother.
Had a look at Thornton Farm present day. Quite somethiing.
Pity my grandpa missed out .
Seems he was the only child born to Grace's children.
I am also going to follow up Helen Young.
It seems the same families kept breeding together - as you say kept the land together!
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Trying to find out more re the police house in Norham . John and sister Christian were living in it for a
while after Christian was a widow. Reason - came across ref to Sergeant Nicholson Norham and
there must be a link here somewhere!
Ref in North East England News May 5th 1894.
The jigsaw gets more involved!
Is there anyway I can do this?
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Hi
I don't see him on the 1891 in Norham or a death, although he could have died outside of the area which would mean that his death would be registered whee he died.
The Berwickshire Advertizer might have something but I'm not sure if it would be available in the online old newspapers. It's not available in the Newcastle Local Studies Library :-\
I'm not really up on the local newspapers of that part of Northumberland.
http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Newspapers.html
Gadget
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Go here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~agene/norhammi/page66.html
In loving memory of James Nicholson who died at Thornton 26th May 1887..............Christian Smith his wife .....................
Gadget
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Hi again :)
I think that this is most likely to be the James Nicholson, husband of Christian. The age and location fit and we know that Christian was still sngle in 1881:
1881
Murton Farm House, Murton
RG1/ 5131/109/ 6
James Nicholson,head, unm, 40, Farmer of 1117 acres employing 21 lab, 13 women and 3 boys, b. Norham
Sarah Nicholson, sister, unm, 39, of no occupation, b.Norham
Ann Casey, serv, 22, domestic servant, b. Scrimerston
Mary Davidson, servant, 19, domestic servant, b. Tweedmouth
Gadget
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John and Christian had also lived at 93 main Street and the police house together
I'm not sure where the police house fits in. Maybe Christian could have rented/bought it after James' death. Where did you see that they lived there - was it in family documents?
There is a Police Station in Norham: on the 1891 census - occupied by Edward Bell, 50, police sergant, b. Edlingham and his family on the page before Christian (RG12/ 4269/115/12) and on the 1901 census - occupied by Thomas Marshall, 43, Sergeant of Police, b. Scotland and his family (RG13/4847/119/23
The Sgt Nicholson in the article that you read might have been an army sergant rather than a policeman or he could have filled in between (say) Edward Bell's retirement and the appointment of Thomas Marshall.
Gadget
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Hi again
thanks for the website link :)
I spent a while this morning trying to find a marriage between James and Christian but couldn't find anything 1881-1887. I might have missed it but I did try Chris* Smith to cover variations of her name. I recall one entry where there was a Mary Smith and a James Nicholson on the same page - a BErwick RD entry. It's very puzzling.
I passed the turnings for Norham, Thornton Park, Etal and Ford at about 9.45 pm. It was raining and the light was going very fast so I didn't take any photos. We pass that way fairly often so will wait for a good day :)
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
There has been progress with Christian and James. James was son of Robert Nicholson (he died 1889 and was the last tenant at Thornton)
I still don't know wen they married but I have been in contact with Bruce Nicholson USA who is a direct descendant of William Nicholson.
He has worked out and sent me how the Smiths of Grace anne and George descend from the Nicholsons of Loanend.
I have so much information that I feel I'm in the middle of a gigantic family puzzle. I'm just a beginner at this game !
Thank you for taking the trouble much appreciated. When I have ploughed through all the information he has sent me I hope I will find their marriage date.
I am completely stuck regarding the parentage of George. I think he is involved with George Smith of Horncliffe Mill who died 1792 age 70.
There is also a William Smith b 1814 of Melkington hall Mansion House Cornhill Tilmouth. Georges brother perhaps? 1871 Census RG10 /5186/89/11.
I have tried everything I am able to and still don't get anywhere! I hope to get Grace A's and George's marriage cert tomorrow.
Thanks again , I am stuck as to what to do next!
Violetta
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The marriage cert should give George's father's name and occupation so that will solve one problem. The others will slot into place as and when.
Just take your main line first of all and work through them. Then you can branch out to the siblings :)
I'm currently working through the siblings and descendants of my 2 and 3 x great grandparents (lots of children and all over UK and Canada/US and Australia) and I started doing my history many years ago!
Gadget
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Now on the search for The Salmon Inn - Norham which G Grandpa John met Anne who was publican - her mother Anne Fish !! was innkeeper before her there. Census 1881 and 1891. It is no longer in the village . Where can I find out? It was on main Street.
I have been trying for a few days now.
There are 2 pubs in the village now The Masons Arms and the Castle Hotel - neither on Main Street - if that still exists.
I have come up with a father for George - If i am right he was married to Hannah Nicholson in Yorkshire! I need to verify this.
Hope someon e may have an idea how I can find the old pub.
Thanks
Violetta
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Hi :)
Have you gone through the enumeration district page by page on one of the censuses? This should list the Inn and you would then get an approximate location in relation to other addresses.
Gadget
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Gadget and Jora,
Results after searching through Parish records;
Found a sister for Grace Anne (Mary)
Found Grace Anne's and Georges marriage
The elusive George Smiths - Found George no. 1 son of George Smith Farmer of East mains - wife Christian Trotter. He died age 4 months 1806.
No record for George no.2. (born 1810) Nothing in the records on line.
Also think I have found mother for George father of George no. 1 and George no2.
Philis smith of Norham East Mains died 1810 aged 80.
All these Georges are a nightmare!
How else do I go about finding details of birth of George no2?
Violetta
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Hi Violetta
Will s might give some information but Smiths are not easy to fine.
The National Archives have an online search and download service for pre-1857 wills:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp?WT.hp=Wills
These are aill proved at Canterbury. If the will was a locally proved one, it might well be at Morpeth:
http://www.experiencewoodhorn.com/archive.htm
Sorry, I'm not up on Northumberland wills :-\
Gadget
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I was brought up in the next Scottish Parish to Ladykirk and know all of the places you have mentioned very well. What does not seem to have come out is that Ladykirk is in Ladykirk parish which is in Berwickshire, Scotland. You may therefore need to broaden your search. Incidentally while there is a Ladykirk Estate there is no Ladykirk farm as such but there are Old Ladykirk, New Ladykirk, Ladykirk Shiels on the Estate.
Hope that helps.
Alan
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Hi Alan
The family only remained at Ladykirk Farm for a short while. I think that we've traced them all back to Northumberland.
Gadget
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Hi Alan and Gadget
They lived at New ladykirk Farm. It belonged to/ or leased by Georges wife 's first husband David Young b 11.11.1833.
There are a lot of Youngs in Norham. The Nicholson connection /loanend comes through Grace Annes Whites mother. The farm might have come to them via that or the White connection.
On George and Graces marriage certificate his father George is also a farmer. I presume at Loanend which was his residence at time of marriage.
Thanks for the idea about wills Gadget i 'll give that a try. i might be on a wild goose chase. My smiths's could be something to do with those of Horncliffe Mill. Who knows?
Thanks for your advice too Alan.
jane
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I am back doing more research and need some advice. I am making progress with the Smith family. Today came across George seniors 1811 1869 record of will probate. Newcastle 348. By his name were the letters OF1459. Can anyone tell me how to take this further. I am lost!! I am so excited to have found him. The executer was his wife Grace anne so I know am on the trail! Many thanks in advance!
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I have a great deal of informatiuon on the Nicholson family from Norham as James Nicholson was my g.g.grandfather's brother.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate of Christian Smith and James Nicholson. They were only married for about 3 years before he died quite young.
I am curious to know what happened to Murton Farm where he lived. According the the census Christian stayed on at this farm with her brother John Smith. Anybody know anything about this farm? Did it by any chance go back to one of the Nicholson's?
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Hello there
I do't know if the farm was a Nicholson one, I know there is a Nicholson at a farm at thornton park still. I will ask my mother if she remembers Murton farm. Christian is my gg aunt as you know. I don't know if this is a Smith farm. It seems that in that era money and land married money and land!
I will see if I can find any thing out. Have you been in touch with Bruce Nicholson? I can send you detail if you are interested.
I will be in touch but must go to work now.
Jane
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If you are still looking, I think you may have the wrong Anne Fish. There is an Anne Patterson Fish married to a John Smith but it is a completely different family. I hope you haven't spent a great deal of time chasing the wrong family. I have all the details on the John Smith and Anne Fish family who were in Ancroft, Norham etc. one of the first children to be born in Ancroft rather than Scotland. There was another John born to the same family in 1844 who died age 7 in 1851. It was not uncommon for another son to be called the same name as the deceased one. He was the son of George Smith 1840-1869 and Grace Anne White Young 1811-1880. Anne Fish had a sister Jane born 1830 and a brother David born 1874 and a niece, Ellie Fish Born 1897. Christian Smith, John's sister, married James Nicholson my g.g.uncle who was a farmer in Murton. They were only married a few years when he died and her brother John moved into the farm to help out from what I can understand before marrying Anne Fish. Does this help? beagriff
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Sorry made a small mistake on my first message. Anne Fish's sister was born in 1870 not 1830. beagriff
2 England (Counties as in 1851-1901) / Northumberland Completed Look up Requests / Violetta on Ladykirk Farm 2009 on: Yesterday at 20:48:06
If you are still looking, I think you may have the wrong Anne Fish. There is an Anne Patterson Fish married to a John Smith but it is a completely different family. I hope you haven't spent a great deal of time chasing the wrong family. I have all the details on the John Smith and Anne Fish family who were in Ancroft, Norham etc. one of the first children to be born in Ancroft rather than Scotland. There was another John born to the same family in 1844 who died age 7 in 1851. It was not uncommon for another son to be called the same name as the deceased one. He was the son of George Smith 1840-1869 and Grace Anne White Young 1811-1880. Anne Fish had a sister Jane born 1830 and a brother David born 1874 and a niece, Ellie Fish Born 1897. Christian Smith, John's sister, married James Nicholson my g.g.uncle who was a farmer in Murton. They were only married a few years when he died and her brother John moved into the farm to help out from what I can understand before marrying Anne Fish. Does this help? beagriff
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best to go back to your thread and edit/modify the content there - this new thread isnt linked in any way. ;)
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Hi
I have merged these two threads but they obviously relate to an existing post somewhere. I will try to link them if I can find it.
Andrea
PS Can't find it but provided by another rootschatter!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,394471.0.html
Now merged
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Beagriff
Will fill you in on details tomorrow. Are you aware that Christian my grt grt aunt and her brother John's mother Grace Ann was a Nicholson as well? James and Christian may have been cousins? I cannot find any information about their father - my grt grt grt grandfather - there are so many Smiths! Have you seen the photo I posted of John Christians brother?
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I will send what details I have but as I am not up on RootsChat, how do I find the picture you have posted? Thanks
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Hi
Thankyou. If you go to page three of the Ladykirk farm thread and at bottom there are two photos. One of George junior my grandfather and one of John his father - Christians brother. I am convinved Christian married her cousin. Look through the pages of the thread it might be helpful to you.
will be in touch.
Violetta
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I have found a daughter born 1897 called Ellie, living with Ann and David and Jane. I have not found out yet if she is the daughter of David or Jane. On the census for 1901 it shows the name Ellis but it says she is the niece of Ann. I think this is right but have not found out anything else about her, or if David Fish was married.
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I think I discovered this as well. I will ask my mother if she knows anything - all she remembers is her father talking about an Uncle Dave. I found a David Fish in prison in Berwick around the right time but don't knnow if it was the same one!
I am now going to go through all my notes so will let you know anything new I discover.
Violetta
Did you see the photos? Hope you got my message. pg 3.
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Beagriff
Re your research into David Smith - according to my mother he did marry and went elsewhere-she doesn't know location. She has no knowledge of Ellie or Jane. Have discovered that Ann Fish senior was innkeeper at the neighbouring village of Etal at the now well known Black Bull pub. Not sure when though.
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I have found a daughter born 1897 called Ellie, living with Ann and David and Jane. I have not found out yet if she is the daughter of David or Jane. On the census for 1901 it shows the name Ellis but it says she is the niece of Ann. I think this is right but have not found out anything else about her, or if David Fish was married.
Hello... I have read through this Ladykirk thread with great interest. My great-great grandfather was John Clay (1797-1866) who was the son and grandson of tenant farmers of large farms in the area. John married Ann Young Wilson (1796-1870) My great-great grandmother in 1822. Ann Young Wilson was "an orphan raised by her uncle, Young- tenant at Ladykirk"- quoted from 'John Clay: A Scottish Farmer (1906)' I would be grateful to know who was "Young- tenant at Ladykirk"... he would have been the tenant at Ladykirk in around 1820.
Ann Young Wilson's father was Charles Wilson and her mother was 'Ann'. I am seeking the dates and places of birth and marriage and death of Ann Young WIlson's parents.
I would very grateful for any help with this!!
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Hi Alan
The family only remained at Ladykirk Farm for a short while. I think that we've traced them all back to Northumberland.
Gadget
Hello... I have read through this Ladykirk thread with great interest. My great-great grandfather was John Clay (1797-1866) who was the son and grandson of tenant farmers of large farms in the area. John married Ann Young Wilson (1796-1870) My great-great grandmother in 1822. Ann Young Wilson was "an orphan raised by her uncle, Young- tenant at Ladykirk"- quoted from 'John Clay: A Scottish Farmer (1906)' I would be grateful to know who was "Young- tenant at Ladykirk"... he would have been the tenant at Ladykirk in around 1820.
Ann Young Wilson's father was Charles Wilson and her mother was 'Ann'. I am seeking the dates and places of birth and marriage and death of Ann Young WIlson's parents.
I would very grateful for any help with this!!
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I was brought up in the next Scottish Parish to Ladykirk and know all of the places you have mentioned very well. What does not seem to have come out is that Ladykirk is in Ladykirk parish which is in Berwickshire, Scotland. You may therefore need to broaden your search. Incidentally while there is a Ladykirk Estate there is no Ladykirk farm as such but there are Old Ladykirk, New Ladykirk, Ladykirk Shiels on the Estate.
Hope that helps.
Alan
Hello Alan... I have read through this Ladykirk thread with great interest. My great-great grandfather was John Clay (1797-1866) who was the son and grandson of tenant farmers of large farms in the area. John married Ann Young Wilson (1796-1870) My great-great grandmother in 1822. Ann Young Wilson was "an orphan raised by her uncle, Young- tenant at Ladykirk"- quoted from 'John Clay: A Scottish Farmer (1906)' I would be grateful to know who was "Young- tenant at Ladykirk"... he would have been the tenant at Ladykirk in around 1820.
Ann Young Wilson's father was Charles Wilson and her mother was 'Ann'. I am seeking the dates and places of birth and marriage and death of Ann Young WIlson's parents.
I would very grateful for any help with this!!
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Hello. I was most interested to read your information about Ladykirk Farm. My great grandmother was married to David Young before she married my grt grandfather George Smith. As you can see from previous threads ( I have not revisited this for a considerable time so forgive me for being very rusty on this) they had a daughter Helen Young. (I don't know what happened to her but she did live with her mother and step father. Several of my great uncles were born at Ladykirk farm. My own great grandfather was in fact born at Ancroft Farm just over the border in Northumberland. I see mention of the family Fish - as yet I have not researched my great grandmother who was was a Fish. I don't know why they left the farm at Ladykirk - perhaps you have some information ? I'm sorry I can't be of help in your research .
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Hello Violetta,
Was David Young's father or perhaps his grand father the tenant farmer of Ladykirk around 1820? I have no information at all regarding any family with the surname Fish- interesting name...
You mentioned in an earlier post that "They lived at New ladykirk Farm. It belonged to/ or leased by Georges wife 's first husband David Young b 11.11.1833." ...so this David Young could not have been the tenant farmer uncle of Ann Young Wilson who "raised" her.
John Clay and Ann Young Wilson married 11 Oct 1822. Ann was born approx. 1811 per the 1841 England Census.
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I have found a daughter born 1897 called Ellie, living with Ann and David and Jane. I have not found out yet if she is the daughter of David or Jane. On the census for 1901 it shows the name Ellis but it says she is the niece of Ann. I think this is right but have not found out anything else about her, or if David Fish was married.
Do you kno who would have been the tenant farmer at Ladykirk during the period of approx. 1815 to 1822?
My great-great grandmother, Ann Young Wilson, was "an orphan raised by her uncle, farmer Young tenant of Ladykirk' - quoted from 'John Clay: A Scottish Farmer (1906)
Ann Young Wilson's father was Charles Wilson and her mother was 'Ann' I would venture to guess 'Ann' was Ann Young.
Ann Young Wilson was born approx. 1811 per the 1841 England Census. Ann Young Wilson married John Clay 11 Oct 1822.
I am looking to establish the date and place of birth of Ann Young and the identity of her brother- the tenant farmer at Ladykirk around 1815 to 1822.
I'd be very glad for any assistance with this...
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Remember that ages were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 in the 1841 census so Ann could be between 30 and 34. That would make more sense of the marriage date you have. She would have been very young otherwise.
Andrea
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Ann Young Wilson is listed in the 1841 England census as Ann Clay- 35 years of age, born about 1806.
Ann Young Wilson is listed in the 1851 Scotland census as Ann Clay- 54 years og age, born about 1797.
She is listed as born "Dky?? Berwickshire"- (Dykesheadgate)
Ann Young Wilson is listed in the 1861 Scotland census as Ann Clay- 64 years og age, born about 1797.
She is listed as born "Cockpen, Edinburghshire"
Ann Young Wilson's death record lists her as Ann Wilson, Wife of John Clay, Farmer, Deceased. She died 18 June 1870, Kerchesters, Sprouston, Roxburghshire, Scotland.
Her parents are listed "Charles Wilson, Farmer, Deceased and Anne Wilson, ms Young, Deceased."
Ann's age at death is listed as "74 years"- so born 1796.
Usually, the older a woman became the later her reported birth year became ;-) The fact that in 1851 and 1861 and on her death record 1797-1796 is listed- I find that credible.
I'm trying to piece together the biography of the uncle tenant farmer at Ladykirk who 'raised' Ann Young Wilson.
It would have been this farmer's sister- Anne Young, later Mrs. Clay- who was Ann Young Wilson's mother.
Both of Ann Young Wilson's parents would have been dead for some time before Ann married John Clay (in 1822) in order for Ann to have been considered 'an orphan raised by her uncle Young tenant farmer at Ladykirk'.
My goal is to get the birth, marriage and death information for Ann Wilson Young's parents -Charles Wilson, Farmer, Deceased and Anne Wilson, ms Young, Deceased.
I have had no success so far... fingers crossed ;-)
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Ann Young Wilson would have to have been born in 1797 because she had twin siblings born 11 Oct 1796- a brother William and a sister Isabel.
I have located the records for 16 Oct 1796, Wilson [OPR Births 676/00 0020 0072 Cockpen] which lists:
"William & Isabel, twins lawfull children to Chalres Wilson and
Ann Young his spouse was born in Mill (?) hulin (?)
the 11 Octr and Baptized 16: 1796- - - -."
Ann would have been 25 years of age at the time of her marriage to John Clay.
The record of their marriage:
11/10/1822 Clay, John [OPR Marriages 757/00 0020 0114 Whitsome and Hilton]
"1822 Oct 11Mr. John Clay Tenant in
Dykethead in the Parish of Whitsom
and Miss Ann Wilson in the Parish of Ladykirk"
I don't know if the twins survived and if so, if they too were raised by their uncle, the tenant farmer at Ladykirk.
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Hello again. Sorry to have mentioned the Fish family. i originally thought you had mentioned them but on looking back realise you didn't! I think that the Smiths may have owned the farm as they were living in Loanend when Grace Ann married my great grandfather and then they must have moved back to the farm - I am presuming Grace was there when David died. I have been to see the farm and have a photo of it if you are interested although no doubt you could find it on google maps. it is very large and just up from the church with wonderful views. I really don't know much about the Youngs although I think there are a few in Norham church yard. I am going up north next month so could have a look round Norham churchyard if you would like - it is becoming quite familiar !
I could look in Berwick record office too for you as I am popping in there when I go.. Just let me know what you want to know and I can ask.
I am not being of much help to you According to information on Norham township 1864 there were several Youngs - two were monumental masons and one a provisions dealer. No farmers at that time. Ladykirk is so close to Norham I know that folks went back and forth over the bridge into Scotland.
I will try and find out who moved into Ladykirk after the Smiths moved out. It makes sense that Youngs were there around 1820. My grt grt grandfathere was born 1811 and married 1834 and then moved into the farm. Helen Young was with them. It might also be interesting to discover what David put in his will re the farm and have a look for Helen in the censuses.
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Hello again. this is like a jigsaw. If this is David young born 1833 it cannot be Grace Annes first husband as she married in 1834. Have you found a James Young as I now have looked back through my records and grace Ann I think was married to a James not David. As Grace Anne was born 1812 I believe this means that her first husband must have been born around that time or earlier and perhaps was already living on the farm?
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Hello again. Sorry to have mentioned the Fish family. i originally thought you had mentioned them but on looking back realise you didn't! I think that the Smiths may have owned the farm as they were living in Loanend when Grace Ann married my great grandfather and then they must have moved back to the farm - I am presuming Grace was there when David died. I have been to see the farm and have a photo of it if you are interested although no doubt you could find it on google maps. it is very large and just up from the church with wonderful views. I really don't know much about the Youngs although I think there are a few in Norham church yard. I am going up north next month so could have a look round Norham churchyard if you would like - it is becoming quite familiar !
I could look in Berwick record office too for you as I am popping in there when I go.. Just let me know what you want to know and I can ask.
I am not being of much help to you According to information on Norham township 1864 there were several Youngs - two were monumental masons and one a provisions dealer. No farmers at that time. Ladykirk is so close to Norham I know that folks went back and forth over the bridge into Scotland.
I will try and find out who moved into Ladykirk after the Smiths moved out. It makes sense that Youngs were there around 1820. My grt grt grandfathere was born 1811 and married 1834 and then moved into the farm. Helen Young was with them. It might also be interesting to discover what David put in his will re the farm and have a look for Helen in the censuses.
I would be very glad to see the photo of Ladykirk you mention...
A look around the church yard or the Berwich records might be just the things to reveal the name and dates for 'tenant farmer at Ladykirk uncle Young'- the uncle of Ann Young Wilson and the details about Ladykirk.
I would think that ''tenant farmer at Ladykirk uncle Young'' would have been at Ladykirk a while before 1820 -as Ann Young Wilson was 'an orphan raised by him' and Ann Young Wilson married John Clay on 11 Oct 1822 when she was 25 years of age.
I would be very grateful for your efforts to check the church yard and the records office.
Charles Wilson and Ann Young are the parents of Ann Young Wilson- so 'tenant farmer at Ladykirk uncle Young' would be the brother of Ann Young.
I am trying to find the parents of Ann Young and 'tenant farmer uncle Young'. I am also trying to find the dates of birth and death for Charles Wilson and Ann Young.
I'd be thrilled to know what information the Norham church yard and the Berwich records office might
provide...
Thank you very much for your help...
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Hello there
Just spoke to one of my newly discovered Smith relatives and she tells me she has Young details on her Smith family tree. I will have a look in a mo. Also she tell me she has all the Norham church yard details of headstones and so when I go up north next month I will have a look at them. Also if you have time to trawl through the Norham parish records which can be found on line which I found through Family Search - Diocese of Durham Bishops Transcripts ca. 1700-1900 you may find something about the Youngs - I haven't looked for three years but am convinced I noticed mention of Grace Annes first husband. You may like to look at my family tree on Ancestory as well. There is obviously a connection between these Youngs as she ended up at the farm. Will try to up load the photo - it is New Ladykirk by the way.
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I would very much like to look at your Ancestry tree- please message me the name of the tree so I can look for it.
I will also look over the Diocese of Durham Bishops Transcripts ca. 1700-1900 on Family Search.
Thank you!
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Hello there
Just spoke to one of my newly discovered Smith relatives and she tells me she has Young details on her Smith family tree.
This tree may show the Smith/Young/Ladykirk intersections...
I will have a look in a mo. Also she tell me she has all the Norham church yard details of headstones and so when I go up north next month I will have a look at them.
...that would be fantastic- and may well provide some great clues...
Also if you have time to trawl through the Norham parish records which can be found on line which I found through Family Search - Diocese of Durham Bishops Transcripts ca. 1700-1900 you may find something about the Youngs - I haven't looked for three years but am convinced I noticed mention of Grace Annes first husband.
...I will look for these records...
You may like to look at my family tree on Ancestory as well. There is obviously a connection between these Youngs as she ended up at the farm.
I would be very interested to see your Ancestry tree- please message me the name of the tree so I can look for it on Ancestry.
Will try to up load the photo - it is New Ladykirk by the way.
...great. I will look out for it!
Thank you ;-)
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Smith Martin Family Tree. Have yet to check the other smith which will do now.
Jane
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Hi Alan
The family only remained at Ladykirk Farm for a short while. I think that we've traced them all back to Northumberland.
Gadget
Where I could obtain a list of the tenant farmers at Ladykirk for circa 1795 to 1825?
A list of the tenant farmers at Ladykirk between 1795 to 1825 would give me a list of individuals to research- especially useful given that I would only be looking for tenant farmers named Young.
I would be grateful for any help ;-)
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Hiya,
I lucked on this thread as I upgraded on Ancestry.co.uk the other day: going through my tree & just noticed my gg grandmother Mary McLeod was previously listed as born in "Ladykirk, Berwickshire", but I clicked on a 'Hint' which led me to her christening record which listed her residence as "Ladykirk", in Durham, 1825.
Her sister Mary was (also?) christened in Norham Northumberland the following year, but also resident/born in "Ladykirk".
It looks like their dad/my ggg grandfather George McLeod (b. 1796 Norham, Northumberland) was the "young tenant" you seek. :-)
He moved on.. the next record I have is the birth of his son George in Coldingham, Berwickshire in 1834.
Please feel free to ask questions: these details are all new to me this evening - the christening record *which I saw and read!* - wasn't saved by Ancestry!
So I'll be researching George & his family further in the next few days.
Oh, and this thread clarified a niggle: someone mentioned Ford: by 1901 Mary McLeod's son in law William Armstrong (my g grandfather) was Farm Steward at Westfield Farm in Ford.. now I know how he probably ended up crossing to 'the wrong side of the border' - as my mum used to say! - leading to meeting my g grandmother, from Wigtownshire who was a maid on the farm :-)
PS.. re Ladykirk/Berwickshire/Northumberland, it's clear the farm/s was/were in Northumberland, but I lucked on a historical site "Ladykirk" (attached, whilst checking how close Norham was to Ford), which is *north* of the Tweed.. not sure of the boundary changes in the area, but this may have caused the confusion. :-)
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Hello again,
an update: I tracked down Mary McLeod's birth record, and she was christened at Norham but with the residence at Ladykirk across the border in Berwickshire.
And I'm afraid her dad George was a hedger, so an employee of the tenant.
But he & his wife were also christened at Norham, which probably explains why their 1st 2 daughters were christened there rather than at Ladykirk church.
I know from other ancestors English & Scottish farmers commonly used to work either side of the border, so probably explains other people living just across the border in Berwickshire getting christened in Norham church.