RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Romantic Spirit on Sunday 09 January 11 16:43 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if anyone knows any personal information about the first wife of the famous Victorian photographer and inventor, William Friese-Greene? Although she was always called Helena her actual birth names were Victoria Mariana Helena Friese. Her father was apparently a German Baron. In particular, I would be most grateful to know about her date of birth, date of death and where she is buried?
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According to this website she was born in 1854 and died in 1895.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSob=c&GSlh=1&GRid=63895662&
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Death reg FreeBMD
Helene Victoria M Greene
age 44
Dec qtr 1895
Fulham
1a 214
Suz
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According to this website she was born in 1854 and died in 1895.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSob=c&GSlh=1&GRid=63895662&
I think perhaps this is your own information that I am giving you ::)
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Suzard that is odd because I have a subscription with Ancestry.com and except for their marriage I could find no records at all for her. The reason being they did not recognize their adopted full surname, but just her husband's surname as you have discovered. This is certainly her though and I am extremely grateful for your information! I must thank JenB too because not only are you right both times but you very kindly gave up time for me! Many many thanks!
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The marriage reg is on ancestry too - I think Victoria is the first name given -and William had a middle name
Shout if you need more info
Suz
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books.google.com has a couple hits which suggest Helena was the step-sister of a colleague of William, called "Josty".
This is probably Daniel Josty, b. Swizterland, listed in 1881 as an artist.
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Both William Green and Helena Friese lived near my home. He courted her at the house in which she was staying that faces Queens Road, Bristol where he was an apprenticed photographer.
Although there was an article on the Internet which stated she was the daughter of a Swiss Baron this, I have since proved, is untrue. There were no Barons in Switzerland in her lifetime and Friese is a German name which comes from Lower Saxony. This last fact awoke an old memory. A photographer and expert local historian I once knew stated she was German and on a visit to her aunt because of her constant ill health. In Victorian times there were very many Germans living in Bristol. Since her family obviously had above average financial means and Baron is a fairly common title in Germany I think it probable her father did have this title.
I really appreciated Jorose's assistance. Many thanks! The origin of the Swiss error which I quoted from a website is obvious. In 1951 the British all star cast film, "The Magic Box", about the life of William Friese-Greene was made. I have seen this many times and also read about its production. Helena was stated in the film as being Swiss because WWII was still very fresh in the British public's mind and the producers considered this much more acceptable than the fact that she was German which could have reduced popularity.
Can anyone inform me how I could discover where she is buried, please? When she died she was apparently living in Fulham, London.
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Hi
It doesn't look as if William decided on Friese-Greene until after his first wife's death. He and his second wife and two sons can be found using that surname in Dovercourt Essex on the 1901 census.
1891 census RG12 5 folio 11
9 Bristol Gardens Paddington
William E Green 35 Head Married Artist Bristol
Lena Green 37 Wife Married Switzerland
Ethel Green 14 Daughter Bath
Eda Friese 36 Sister-in-law Single Living on own means Switzerland
Clara Friese 34 Sister-in-law Single Living on own means Switzerland
Births Jun 1876 GREEN Ethel Adelaide Bath 5c 684
6th January 1897 All Saints, Fulham
Forrester Seely Barnes 22 Bachelor 223 New Kings Road Parsons Green John Forseter Barnes Pianoforte maker
Ethel Adelaide Steele Greene 20 Spinster 223 New Kings Road Parsons Green William Edward Greene Photographer
Both signed
Witnesses William Edward Greene and Charlotte Barnes
1901 census RG13 1214 folio 130
43 Hazeldean Road Willesden
Forrester Barnes 25 Head Married Photographer Kentish Town London
Ethel Barnes 24 Wife Married Bath Somerset
William Barnes 3 Son Chelsea London
Harold Barnes 2 Son Chelsea London
Percy Barnes 19 Brother Photographer Marylebone London
Ethel and Forrester with an ever growing family are in Essex on the 1911 census (free search)
In 1917 when their son William Edward Barnes was killed in the First World War, Ethel and Forrester were of 117 Southview Drive Westcliff on Sea
Forrester S Barnes died aged 73 in Southend on Sea in 1948
It isn't easy to find a burial in London. The guide on the London and Middlesex board lists all the cemeteries and the who administers and keeps the records
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403485.0.html
Regards
Valda
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Hi
1881 census RG11 2488 folio 44
4 Beech Road Horfield Gloucestershire
James Green 64 Head Married Smith Bristol
William Green 25 Son Married Photographic Artist Bristol
E. Green 64 Wife Married Clutton Somerset
No sign of Ethel and her mother who might be buried with her sister Clara
Deaths Dec 1895 Friese Clara 47 Fulham 1a 180
Regards
Valda
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I must thank Valda a lot for all this diligent and kind effort!
Firstly, William Friese-Greene was definitely using his wife's maiden name for professional purposes soon after they married in 1874. And I have two photos dated 1880 of his family with the address of the studios at Bath and Friese-Greene clearly printed on them.
Secondly, William Friese-Greene was a dreamer and such people are fanciful. One does not give a nickname such as Lena for official records and her age at that time was 40 not 37. I cannot definitely comment about Switzerland except that Friese is a German name and from the region bordering the Netherlands. Since nationality was not going to be checked these could be embellishments too. All the other information is most interesting and presumably correct!
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Hi
It is common for people when filling in the census household schedule to put down the name which each person was commonly known by - hence in this case Lena.
Switzerland is a long way from the German- Danish border so this would be a bit different from an 'embellishment'. There would be no problem in the 1890s in putting Germany (by then unified) if the three sisters were German born. Why put Switzerland if this was not the truth?
On the case of the German side though Clara's death was noted in The Times
17th October 1895
Friese On the 15th inst at 3 Lovaine Terrace Fulham S.W. after a long illness Clara Friese second daughter of the late Alexander Friese, of Berlin and Sils, Engadine, Switzerland Please copy
Still the mention of Switzerland though.
Regards
Valda
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You have discovered many interesting pieces of information. Perhaps one should call you Valda The Magician!
A census form is supposed to contain accurate information of a household not made up nicknames which could be anyone. I have looked at countless records of numerous families and have never come across anything other than the correct names and ages except when the person taking the census information had made a genuine error such as a spelling mistake!
From the information about nationality I would think it most likely they were well-off Germans who had lived in Switzerland. I have lived in other countries myself but my name tells my true nationality. Bristol at that time had a large number of Germans, mostly business people, whereas it would have been rare to find a Swiss person. The local photographer and historian I mentioned was the late Reece Winstone, you probably are acquainted with, and he stated she was German too. If a person is going to give an incorrect age and name then they would likely think Switzerland sounds more romantic than Germany!
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A census form is supposed to contain accurate information of a household not made up nicknames which could be anyone. I have looked at countless records of numerous families and have never come across anything other than the correct names and ages except when the person taking the census information had made a genuine error such as a spelling mistake!
I have to disagree with you here, and I'm sure I won't be the only one to do so!
I too have looked at 'countless' census census records, and have frequently found 'nicknames' or 'pet names' being used, e.g. Annie for Hannah, Ellie for Eleanor and many others.
I have found different ages given, and places of birth also differing from census to census, in some cases even to the extent of different counties of birth being given.
Jennifer
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Well, thank you, JenB. You are agreeing with me that the information on the census about Helena Friese is suspect. From independent sources she was almost assuredly German by origin.
As for your experience differing to mine, you obviously have done much more research than me. All I can say is that all the families I researched were honest.
Thank you all very very much for the wealth of data! I have learnt a great deal!
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All I can say is that all the families I researched were honest.
I have no reason to think that the families I have researched were dishonest. It is fairly commonplace to find that people gave differing information in sucessive censuses.
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How can a person's name and age change from one census to another in relation to their date of birth and without a lawful change of name without dishonesty?
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It is not illegal to change your name, as long as it is not done to defraud. If he wanted to use "Friese Greene", he could (he may have only used it for business initially hence giving just plain "Green" on censuses). If someone preferred to be called Annie rather than Ann, or use their middle name, or take the surname of their stepfather, they could. Most people didn't bother with things like deed polls.
Although some ages changed because people were trying to disguise things like a big gap in age between husband and wife, there are lots of reasons why somebody might be mistaken, particularly for more distant relatives (in-laws, etc) in the household. That's why ages and birthplaces for lodgers and boarders are more often wrong, generally speaking, then those for family members in the census.
A birthplace might also be wrong because someone wrongly assumed they were born in the location where they lived as a child, or because it was easier to give the name of a large town near their actual birthplace.
Following the Josty connection:
http://www.badrutt.org/PiBa-GR-BK2006-e.htm
http://www.badrutt.org/PiBa-GR-020-e.htm
Daniel Josty and his brother were photographers in the Engadine area, but their family also had a connection to Berlin. If the information about Daniel being her step-brother is correct, "Ida Josty" may be Helena's mother.
This may all refer to the same family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Josty
http://www.luise-berlin.de/strassen/bez01h/j134.htm (in German)
adressbuch.zlb.de could help find where the family were living in Berlin.
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Your last link is very appreciated!
No-one said it was illegal to use another name, just that it was dishonest on a census. It is perfectly clear that they were romanticizing their position. If William had been more practical and less dreamy he would certainly have become wealthy instead of a long-time bankrupt.
Thank you.
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Hi
Taken from
Chronological List of Photographers Working in the City of Bristol, U.K. (1852 - 1972)
Extracted from Annual Trade Directories
Josty & Co, D 1873 - Queen’s Road 1874 - last entry until 1879 - D Josty, 5 Perry Road, Last entry until 1882 - Merrywood, Southville 1883 - 62 Wine Street
Friese-Green, William [see T.G. Willaway] 1882 - Richmond Terrace, Clifton 1885 - 15 Royal Promenade 1886 - no advertising until 1881 - Richmond Terr, Queen's Road. 1896 - Green Friese, Simpson & Co, Queen's Road.
http://www.cartes.fsnet.co.uk/photo/plist1.htm
1881 census RG11 2452 folio 17
12 Milford Road Bedminster Somerset
Daniel Josty 46 Head Married Artist Switzerland
Anna Josty 30 Wife Married Switzerland
Waldemar Josty 9 Son Bristol
Arthur Josty 7 Son Bristol
Spencer Josty 6 Son Bristol
Ida Josty 4 Daughter Bristol
Clara Josty 3 Daughter Bristol
Rudolphe Josty 2 Son Bristol
William Josty Son Bristol
1871 census RG10 180 folio 25
21 Dorchester Place Marylebone Middlesex
Daniel Josty 36 Head Married Photographer Switzerland
Anna Josty 20 Wife Married Switzerland
Daniel's widow and children were living in Cardiff on the 1891 census. The Welsh census gives language spoken. Anna's was German.
The Daniel Josty connection would seem the most likely reason for why Helene Friese came to visit England and Bristol. As Jorose said Daniel and Helene could have been cousins or the connection might be through Daniel's wife Anna.
From the evidence of the censuses for the 'Friese-Greene family' apart from using a 'pet name' for his wife in 1891 (as already stated often done on C19th censuses) there seems no evidence that William was at any point 'dishonest' or factually inaccurate when completing a household schedule (the 1881 household schedule was likely completed by his father).
1881 census RG11 2488 folio 44
4 Beech Road Horfield Gloucestershire
James Green 64 Head Married Smith Bristol
William Green 25 Son Married Photographic Artist Bristol
E. Green 64 Wife Married Clutton Somerset
1891 census RG12 5 folio 11
9 Bristol Gardens Paddington
William E Green 35 Head Married Artist Bristol
Lena Green 37 Wife Married Switzerland
Ethel Green 14 Daughter Bath
Eda Friese 36 Sister-in-law Single Living on own means Switzerland
Clara Friese 34 Sister-in-law Single Living on own means Switzerland
1901 census RG13 1698 folio 43
10 Cliff Villas Millbrook Dovercourt Essex
William FrieseGreen 45 Head Married Inventor Scient Bristol Gloucester
Edith FrieseGreen 25 Wife Married Great Yarmouth Norfolk
Claude H FrieseGreen 2 Son London Middlesex
Kenneth W FrieseGreen 1 Son Dovercourt Essex
2 female servants
It was common place for photographers to think of themselves (in the new media of the C19th) as artists or photographic artists.
The term dreamer and incorrigible optimist are used in this article to describe William Friese-Greene's views of his abilities as an inventor, but he certainly did invent and patent what he invented.
http://www.screenonline.org.uk/people/id/508948/
Regards
Valda
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You have discovered many interesting pieces of information. Perhaps one should call you Valda The Magician!
From the information about nationality I would think it most likely they were well-off Germans who had lived in Switzerland. I have lived in other countries myself but my name tells my true nationality.
Most probably the children were born in Switzerland - but their father was German
Maybe mother was Swiss
You state your name tells your true nationality
But your name doesn't tell your place of birth -which -what is asked for on the census!!!
As for age differences on the census - not that much importance was attached to age - so sometimes the person giving the information guessed
One of my ancestors baptism record states "born Spring" baptised the day the first stone of the chapel was laid"
People gve the names they were known by sometimes - tthey used middle names as forenames - Florrie usually turns out to be Florence -Nelly can be Sarah Ellen etc
Its a little unfair to hint at them being dishonest
I know on one official form my name is wrongly spellt - not my fault -someone pressing the wrongbutttons when making a list - but I am finding it very difficult to get it altered - so maybe future genertions will call me "dishonest"
The more research you do the more you will become aqcuainted with "spotting" misentries on the census
Suz
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On the one hand I am overwhelmed by the amount of time, effort and information so freely and kindly offered which I never expected. For this I am MOST appreciative! Nevertheless, I find it odd why you are trying to constantly make them saints. I have lived in Bristol and known about them first-hand for a very long time, not from intuitive guesses from records, and have carefully formed opinions which I stand by.
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! Nevertheless, I find it odd why you are trying to constantly make them saints.
I don't think anyone is trying to make anyone a saint
We are just trying to give you help and tips for searching the census from the many years experience of "deciphering" the census we have between us.
We are freely and happily giving our time to try to assist you - sorry you find some things "odd"
Bye
Suz
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According to this website she was born in 1854 and died in 1895.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSob=c&GSlh=1&GRid=63895662&
Just for the record, this has now been altered to show a birthdate of 1851, presumably to tie up with the death record given by suzard in post #2.
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Hi
For interest the civil registration has only two 'events' in either Gloucestershire or adjacent Somerset for the surname Friese. Helene's marriage in 1874
Marriages Mar 1874 Friese Victoria Mariana H Bristol 6a 10
and the death of a child for which there is no birth registration
Deaths Sep 1873 FRIESE Thomas 3 Bedminster 5c 420
Bedminster was the civil registration district to the south of Bristol.
Regards
Valda
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Valda: William Green and Helena Friese married at 11 am on the 24th March, 1874 at St. George's Church, Brandon Hill, Bristol.
As regards the child I should think this is unlikely to be anything to do with Helena. By all accounts she was respectable and Bedminster is a poor area. Helena and her family lived in the best area of Bristol: Clifton.
JenB: Many years ago I knew the date of birth for Helena Friese but I could not remember it so as I knew she was a little older than William who was born on the 7th September, 1855 I made it temporarily 1854 at Find A Grave until I had better information. But this was found from another source on the Internet.
Unless someone knows the burial place for Helena Friese-Greene, I think it is time this was wound up. With the utmost sincerity I have been amazed at the interest and effort shown and ultimately the many new facts discovered for which I am most deeply grateful! I think Valda is undoubtably this website's Sherlock Holmes! ... Without the pipe of course.
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Hello,
My name is Rebecca. I am William Freise Greene's Great Great Great Granddaughter from his marriage to Helena. Ethel is my Grandad's Grandmother and talks of her often also she helped give information for the book by Ray Allister which is a biography of William and his work (A Close Up Of An Inventor). We are trying to find out information on the Family(The family tree). We have Helena's death certificate and other information. It would be good to exchange information and help out where we can.
Regards
Beckie.
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It is an honour to know you, Rebecca. I should like to know two facts: Helena's place of burial and, if possible, her true nationality, please? Any knowledge I possess I will be very happy to give.
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William Friese-Greene was living in Cliff Road ,Dovercourt.
William Edward Green was born on 7 September 1855, in Bristol. In 1869 he became an apprentice to a photographer named Maurice Guttenberg. By 1875 he had set up his own studios in Bath and Bristol, and later expanded his business with two more studios in London and Brighton. He married Helena Friese on 24 March 1874, and decided to modify his name to include her maiden name. from 1897 to 1904 he lived at 5 Cliff Road, Dovercourt Having moved from London with his second wife Edith and two young children in January 1897,
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Her place of burial is:
Fulham Palace Road Cemetery
Fulham
Greater London, England
Plot: Area 9A, Row F, No.108
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I wonder if anyone knows any personal information about the first wife of the famous Victorian photographer and inventor, William Friese-Greene? Although she was always called Helena her actual birth names were Victoria Mariana Helena Friese. Her father was apparently a German Baron. In particular, I would be most grateful to know about her date of birth, date of death and where she is buried?
Some info on my website about William
http://www.harwichanddovercourt.co.uk/famous-people-local-characters/
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Hello,
My name is Rebecca. I am William Freise Greene's Great Great Great Granddaughter from his marriage to Helena. Ethel is my Grandad's Grandmother and talks of her often also she helped give information for the book by Ray Allister which is a biography of William and his work (A Close Up Of An Inventor). We are trying to find out information on the Family(The family tree). We have Helena's death certificate and other information. It would be good to exchange information and help out where we can.
Regards
Beckie.
Hi Beckie, it would be good to know more about your line. I am descended William/Claude/Anthony, and am in touch with many other Friese-Greenes. We have a comprehensive tree, but you are not on there!
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Looking for information a colleague of William’s son Claude - Roland Humphery. According to the 1921 census, Roland and Claude were living together. They also jointly hold a US patent for color cinematography. I know Roland owned The London Bridge Hotel and the New Hibernian Lodge. I am curious as to whether there are any living relatives. Thanks in Advance for any information.
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Dear Valda, I have found your useful entries on the Friese-Green(e)s. I have a couple of questions. What do you mean by
[see T.G. Willaway]
in
"Friese-Green, William [see T.G. Willaway] 1882 - Richmond Terrace, Clifton 1885 - 15 Royal Promenade 1886 - no advertising until 1881 - Richmond Terr, Queen's Road. 1896 - Green Friese, Simpson & Co, Queen's Road."
Can anybody clarify: Why was she called “Helena”, or "Lena"?
According to my German sources, her baptismal name was Victoria Marianne Friese, and she had no sisters called Eda and Clara (as you indicate in the census for 1881). I know from your forum that she had visited a relative in Bristol whose name was Daniel Josty who had daughters called Ida [Eda?] and Clara (but they were born in the late 1870s, so they could not be in their 30s, as it says in the census). They would have been Willy´s and Mrs Friese's (half)nieces. Thank you!