RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: litherland lass on Friday 07 January 11 20:09 GMT (UK)
-
My great grand mother Gwen Roberts (nee Williams) was born around 1855/56 according to the 1901 census. She came from Rhyd-Ddu.Beddgelert.
If anyone can shed any light on her birth date I would be grateful.
Not sure what parish it would come under. Can't find a Gwen Williams for 1855 /6 on the freebmd
-
Rhyd Ddu addresses are usually in the parish of Beddgelert. Can you post the census reference for the entry you've found? It might speed up research.
Pinot :)
-
I believe Beddgelert came under the Festiniog district in ref to GRO registration. NorthWales BMD has two Gwen Williams for 1856 one at subdistrict Deudraeth and one at subdistrict Ffestiniog (ref ARDB1/9/E236) registers at Dolgellau according to NWBMD. Do you have Gwen's father's name from her marriage certificate? That should give a good crosscheck for censuses and ordering the correct birth certificate.
Heather
-
Hi
I assume this is linked to the Bron y Foel Hall topic. I've had a go at finding the marriage and failed. Where did you get the information 'nee Williams' ? Rhyd Ddu is in the parish of Beddgelert. I've got ancestors from both sides of my family in this parish and have studied many sources of information re the parish, and am continuing to look for new sources. I'll have a look at the Parish registers next week. Unfortunately as people converted to Nonconformist sects it makes information less accesible.
As I was 'posting' a message came up that another reply had been posted. Yes, at that time Beddgelert came under Ffestiniog Registration district, part of the parish being in Merionethshire and part in Carnarvonshire. Later, because of a boundary change, it all came under Carnarvonshire. When looking for information on Ancestry re Beddgelert you have to look under both counties.
Emyr
-
Hello litherland lass,
The baptism for Gwen Williams is on Freereg and is as follows:
Beddgelert Parish Church.
07 April 1855, baptised Gwen, daughter of Elias and Anne Williams.
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/Search.pl
Jo
-
thanks to Emyr and Jo and to everyone who has responded.To try and answer all questions raised I hope I can cover them in this reply. Apologies in advance if this already covers some of the replies. I found the area on my great grand mother from two census 1891 and 1901 relating to my original enquiry about my grand father, not thinking I would be taking the data even further back. These census relate to No 1 Cesarea Terrace Llandwrog. (sometimes spelt Ceasarea). Gwen has stated on the census on the 1891 that she was from Beddgelert. Yet on the 1901 census she stated she was from Rhyd-Ddu which I am told is part of Beddgelert. Her age given on the 1901 census is 45. So she could of been born 1855 or 56?
From the person who has listed a Gwen with parents name a big thank you. Will look into this a bit further.
I think I have traced my great grandparents marriage lines as both a Robert Roberts and a Gwen Williams appear on the Dec quarter 1876 11b 784
thanks again but anymore information is welcome. I honeymoon in Beddgelert in 1972 but neither my mum or nan said they had connections with the area via my nan's marriage to Evan Roberts, who I have never known as he died in 1932 aged either 44 or 45. Hence the photo's we have of Plas Du of my mum and nan in 1933 8 months after his death taken with what I think is another family member??? which makes me wounder is there a family connection with this house!!
-
Hello litherland lass,
I wonder how old the house, Plas Du, would have been. Do you have any idea? The reason I ask is that if it is old enough, it would be possible to do a place search on the census for it. That would revela who lived there in years gone by. Then we can see if these people are related to your ancestors.
I suspect the father of Gwen Williams might be Ellis Williams, that the name has been mitranscribed in the register. I note there is a marriage of an Ellis Williams to Anne Humphreys in Llangybi on 20 June 1835. That was also an area where there were slate mines according to Genuki.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangybi/index.html
This couple had a son, William, baptised 09/05/1837 at Capel Helyg, Llangybi.
What information do you have on this family from census returns?
It should be possible to track Ellis/Elias Williams and Anne in the census both before and after Gwen was born.
Jo
-
hi Jo, when I visited Plas Du last year, the owners had the deeds. The notes I wrote down show a date of 23.1.1896 with a Mary elixabeth Campbell (mortgagor) and a Elizabeth Ann Aspinall (mortgagee) with 53 acres of land.to be tenanted to a John robinson 19.9.1881 with a yearly rent of £16 on 25.3.1881.
on the 1.3.1899 Mary E Campbell died.
3.2.1904 A.Solomon was trustee of the will. On the 17.1.1917 Estate of JRC Atwood were granted to a Mrs G M G Lewis 29.9.1946 Mr G A T Whitehouse sells to Mary Ellen Jones she died 12.12.1960.
My feelings are is that Mary Ellen Jones is the lady in the picture back in 1933 with my late mum and nan.
i have had an email from another source saying that they might be related to my great grand mother Gwen of which I have got baptism details which gives me a rough but good idea when she was born but no address other than in the area of Rhyd -Ddu in Beddgelert.
Litherland Lass- Pauline
-
Hello litherland lass,
Re Mary Ellen Jones, do you know if this lady was married, or was Jones her maiden name? Also, what year was she born?
Could she be connected to the Jones family mentioned in your other post on this site?
A couple of possible approaches come to mind. One would be to ask the local paper for Beddgelert to print the photo and ask people for information on the place and people. The other is to look at the electoral rolls for Plas Du for the 1930s. This would give you details of the people living there then who were registered to vote.
Jo
-
Hi Jo,
thanks for your comments.
I've already done the VR's at the record office in Caernarvon year. Mary was a spinster. Her mother and father are listed upto 1929 on the VR's and then her name appears. I've also seen the deeds for the property and she bought Plas Du in 30/40's.
i have however, found more info on my grand father and his parents and siblings.
it's getting very interesting.
Kind regards
litherland lass
-
Hello litherland lass,
Oooh, it is very exciting for us all who have been following this. Have you solved the mystery? Can you tell us what you have found?
It should be possible to find Mary in a census, that is unless you have done so already.
Jo
-
hi Jo,
yes we have research Mary. We know she was a spinster. I think I am going to have to do more research on her mother and father of which I have limited info. First I will need to guess a marriage date, and this will give me a maiden name. So far I haven't been able to find anything that makes feel confident I have the right people, but will continue my search.
will keep everyone upto date.
kind regards
Litherland Lass Pauline
-
Hi
Info re your family, unsorted, so might duplicate info that has already appeared:
Caernarvonshire/Llandwrog/Dist.20/page21 - 1881 Census.
3 Bronyfoel Terr. Robert Roberts 30 Abersoch; Winifred 25 Rhyd Ddu; Robert J? 4 Llandwrog ; Elias W 2 Llandwrog; Hugh Roberts (Boarder) 26 Beddgelert.
Dist.19/p.16 - 1891 Census
1 Ceserea Terr. Robert Roberts 35? Llanengan; Gwen Roberts 35 Beddgelert; Robert J? 15 ; Ellias W 11; Benjamin 8 ; David 6; Evan E? 4 ; John M 10months ; all Llandwrog.
NOTE: Rhyd Ddu is in Beddgelert Parish; Abersoch is in Llanengan Parish.
Wife's name changed from Winifred to Gwen. Welsh equivalent of Winifred is GWENffri and people named Winifred were often referred to as Gwen. Gwen appears to be the daughter of Elias Williams of Rhyd Ddu, and so Elias W aged 2 in 1881 appears to named after Gwen's father. If Winifred and Gwen were different persons, then a child of the first wife would have been named after the second wife's father whilst Robert was married to the first, which doesn't make sense.
Caernarvonshire/Beddgelert/Dist.12/p.10 1861 Census
Rhyd Ddu Elias Williams 38 Beddgelert; Ann Williams 38 Llannor; Gwen 6; Margret 4; Jane 1; Dorothy 1?; all Beddgelert.
In 1871 Census, Llandwrog/17/8 , there's a Gwen Williams 16 Servant born Beddgelert, living at Gilwern Isaf, about one and a half miles from Ceserea Terrace. Don't know if it's the same Gwen.
Baptism in Beddgelert Parish Register: April 7th 1855 Gwen daughter of Elias/Anne Williams Rhyd-du miner.
I thought I had info re a marriage, but can't find it if I have !
Emyr
-
Thanks for the information emyrborth will try and digest it.
Litherland Lass
-
Hi,
I hope Pauline doesn't mind, but to save repetition of effort, here is some information I have already relayed to Litherland Lass by personal message concerning an Elias Williams in my family tree who had a daughter called Gwen (whether it is the same Gwen as hers is still to be confirmed!):
1841 Census: Beddgelert (part) HO 107/1391/1/16) [incl part of Rhyd Ddu]
Gefnan: Elias Williams 15 Ag Lab living with his parents Griffith and Elizabeth
[an old essay at Bangor Univ. Archives suggests that Griffith Williams of Gefnan is the son of the family at Wernlasdeg (a farm just outside Beddgelert) -could be linked to Bryn Melyn]
[Elizabeth - not born in county, 1851 census states she was from Trawsfynydd (Mer.)]
[Gefnan - not the terraced house of the same name currently in Rhyd ddu village, but previously (up to ca.1890's?) of a small cottage on a ridge (hence the name), overlooking Llyn y Gader, on Ffridd Uchaf land]
[T.Ceiri Griffiths "Achau rhai o deuluoedd hen Siroedd ......(etc)" (2003) p.[224(a)] shows Elias baptised at Beddgelert 9/3/1822. - See this ref for some related families at Beddgelert]
1851 Census: Beddgelert: HO 107/2512/17 (schedule no:51):
Gefnan: Elias Williams, son, unm, 29 Miner, Caern, Beddgelert
living with his widowed mother and widowed sister Ann (my ancestor) and her children (incl.Griffith, my gg grandfather)
Beddgelert Marriage register [p.74 entry 148]: 28 Feb 1852: Elias Williams 28, miner Gefnant [Gefnan] s/o Griffith Williams (Labourer) to Ann Pritchard 28, Llan[n]or, d/o David Pritchard (farmer)
Beddgelert Baptisms:[p.18/entry 144] Apr 7 1855 : Gwen d/o Elias (miner) and Ann Williams Rhyd ddu
[pity they only mention the name of the village and not the property ...!]
[& haven't yet found bapt records for their other children!]
1861 Rhyd Ddu/Beddgelert - RG9/4327/??/10 schedule no.49 in Rhyd Ddu village proper (property name not shown):
Elias Williams, Head, Married, Copper miner 38 with his wife (Ann) also 38, from Llannor and four daughters Elizabeth (8 ) Gwen (6) Margret (18m) and Jane (18m) [Twins?]
1871 Census Rhyd Ddu/Beddgelert -RG10/5701/??
in Rhyd Ddu village, but property name/number not given (schedule no 59)
Elias Williams Head, Marr, 49 Quarryman and his wife Anne (45! should be 49??) from
Llannor and their daughters: Dorothy (11), Mary (9), Margaret (7) and Jane (2)
[strange that Dorothy doesn't appear on 1861 census if she's 11!, - no mention of Elizabeth or Gwen (moved away?/married?) and the fact that their last two have the same names as previous children suggests that the twins may have died (haven't investigated this)]
1881 census Beddgelert/Rhyd Ddu RG11/5554/??
schedule no 39: "Rhyd ddu village no 29"
Elias Williams, Head, Married, 58 Quarryman, and his wife Ann (58) of Llannor and daughters Dorothy (21)(unm) and Jane (12), and grandson John M Williams (1)
Welsh language newspaper "Y Genedl Gymraeg" published 8/Jun/1889: Deaths: (in Welsh):
"Williams. April 27th [1889] .....67 years old, Mr Elias Williams, Bower Street, Rhyd Ddu (formerly of Gefnan)"
[his burial record not found in Beddgelert Parish records!]
1891 Census Beddgelert/Rhyd Ddu: RG12/4649/??/12 schedule no 70:
2 Bower Street, Rhyd Ddu:
Ann Williams Wid. 70 of Llannor, and one daughter Jane (22)(unm)
1901 Census Beddgelert/Rhyd Ddu: RG13/5260/92/11 schedule no 66
Bower Street (no number given): Ann Williams Head, Wid,(78) of Llannor
[no-one else listed as living at the same dwelling]
1911 Census - not yet checked!
Beddgelert Memorial Inscriptions (St.Mary's church) (Gwynedd FH index M.219)
- couldn't find any headstone associated with Elias and Ann Williams
but the index has an identically named couple buried in an unmarked grave: H.26 [no dates/addresses given] (index may have been compiled from the sexton's records?)
John (Rhosboeth)