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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Rap on Friday 07 January 11 03:41 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I've been trying to validate an old family folklore story that the original ancestor, a fellow by the name of Arrowsmith, arrived with one of the First Fleet as a gardener rather than a Convict. I've found lists of convicts on the fleets, but can't find a list of the itinerant workers or crew who arrived with them. Can any one direct me to the right place to look for his name? or does someone have access to these records?...I've hit bit of a brick wall.
Many thanks,
Rap
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State Library NSW should hold such lists.
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/
Leanne
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Hi Rap,
My first reaction is "oh yeah, that's what they all say!" ;D Just having a quick look at the Colonial Secretary's Papers and BDMs there doesn't appear to be any mention of the ARROWSMITH name until convict Daniel in 1818. If you contact the Fellowship they can probably help you with a surname search http://www.fellowshipfirstfleeters.org.au/ or advise you about resources that you can check.
I suggest that you just research your family backwards and see where it takes you. You might find that the ARROWSMITH comes in at a different time period.
Debra :D
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Rap
I agree with Debra above. It could be just rumour and not actual fact and you should always work backwards. Though in saying that There were 250 Free persons that arrived with the first fleet of which the majority were the soldiers and crews of the ships.
You could try one of the books (early NSW musters) listed on the following link to see if he is listed
http://www.jaunay.com/auscensus.html
This book might also be of help
The First Fleeters : a comprehensive listing of convicts, marines, seamen, officers, wives, children and ships / edited by Paul G. Fidlon and R.J. Ryan
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Hi,
The best resources for early convicts are Mollie Gillan's book The Founders of Australia and Scott Brown's CD The Colonial Database (1788-1810). Neither of these resources mention any Arrowsmith.
Andcarred
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We have a large framed poster which lists all the names of convicts, crew and passengers that came on the First Fleet. The poster has the name of each ship and names of people on each ship. We bought the poster at Port Arthur about 18 years ago and then had this framed. Arrowsmith does not appear anywhere on the lists.
Regards Kaybron
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We have a large framed poster which lists all the names of convicts, crew and passengers that came on the First Fleet. The poster has the name of each ship and names of people on each ship. We bought the poster at Port Arthur about 18 years ago and then had this framed. Arrowsmith does not appear anywhere on the lists.
Regards Kaybron
I also have a large sheet, with the above information.
It may be the same one:
Compiled by Bryan Thomas, Sydney 1976
Sources of information were:
The Fellowship of the First Fleeters
"The Crimes of the First Fleet Convicts" by John Cobley
"Sydney Cove 1788" John Cobley,
and
The Mitchell Library for the following -
The Contractor's Lists (Phillip's Voyage to Botany Bay - published 1790)
The Thomas D. Mutch files
Historical Records of New South Wales
Lieut. Ralph Clark's Journals
There is no mention of an Arrowsmith.
Regards,
Alison :(
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Hi Rap,
the first birth for an Arrowsmith in NSW bdm is in 1849.
Jane H. V18493365 34A/1849
father - William
mother - Hannah
There are Arrows but the first one is in 1829.
The first marriage is in 1836 of a James Arrowsmith to Catherine Barry at St. Patrick's RC, Parramatta
or in 1836 of a William Arrowsmith to Susannah Morgan at COE Abercrombie district or Bathurst.
What is your man's name and do you know any other information?
EDIT - I've also tried Ar* with nothing close.
Alison ???
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Just had another thought:
Could he have gone under any other name?
Alison ???
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Many thanks to you all for your kind help with this old 'tale'....I guess that it may have been embellished over the generations, and is in actual fact, quite off the 'mark'. Working backwards from greatgrandfather Arrowsmith, I have come to a convict named William Arrowsmith b1806 who arrived on the Exmouth in 1830. He lists his native place as 'Gorshire'...which I can find on google as the hamlet of a family of gnomes!...the sense of humour is right on the money! It is this William who married Susannah Morgan, and he appears as a 'runaway' sent to jail again in 1833 at Sydney. He is also listed as a 'bonded' convict (?)
Thanyou for all of your leads, as I will now check them out and discount the old family story. I thought that I may have been on the wrong track, and there was an earlier Arrowsmith family in Sydney. We have not a hint of the first name of the original Arrowsmith, so it will be nice to check out all these leads you have all suggested, and put this old story 'to bed' for the last time.
Your time is much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Rap
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Hi Rap, I'm researching a William Arrowsmith who died in 1872 in NSW whose death notice reads "On the 4th of December, at his residence, Croom Park, near Dungog, after a lingering illness, Mr William Arrowsmith, aged 75 years. Melbourne papers please copy."
I've found newspaper references to an insolvency for a William Arrowsmith in 1859 which describe him as of Bandon Grove near Dungog, millwright: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13016246?searchTerm=%22william%20arrowsmith%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1872-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1800-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc
I think this William was previously at Bathurst as there is an 1852 newspaper advertisement from a son seeking contact with "Mr William Arrowsmith, Millwright and Engineer, formerly of Barnard Castle, Durham, and late of Bathurst": http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12941009?searchTerm=%22william%20arrowsmith%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1872-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1800-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc
There is an 1835 newspaper account of a William Arrowsmith (a "free mechanic" and a "millwright and engineer") in connection with employment at Bathurst: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12853541?searchTerm=%22william%20arrowsmith%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1872-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1800-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc
I was wondering if you were researching the same William Arrowsmith of Bathurst and Dungog and wanted to share information?
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I see some mixed records.
There are many convict records, including 2 entries for Parramatta Gaol in 1833, for a William HARROWSMITH, sometimes listed as William ARROWSMITH. He was convicted at Nottingham in 1829. The records appear to be consistent in that his occupation (where shown) is listed as clock-maker/gunsmith and his age appears the same. His "Native Place" in one record is Leeds; he was employed in Sydney orginally by Mr Oatley. There is a handwritten note next to his name in the Convict Indent papers - "Killed by a ?? going over him at Bathurst, 1835" The date, as I read it for this note is 1835 however it just might be 1895 but I don't think the convict indents were being annotated as late as 1895.
There is another William ARROWSMITH arrived to VDL in 1842.
BTW there is an 1872 death on NSW BMD for a Charles ARROWSMITH of Dungog, parents William and Hannah. An inquest was held for this man (17 January 1872) which found he died as a result of a gunshot wound accidentally inflicted by himself.
There are some newspaper reports of this where the name is given as James ARROWSMITH.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18760642
Perhaps a son of your William?
Judith
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Thanks Judith, yes I suspect that James/Charles Arrowsmith is a son of William Arrowsmith who died near Dungog in 1872. There are baptisms/births recorded to William Arrowsmith and Hannah starting in 1849 in the Dungog region but it appears they may have married in 1838 in Bathurst as William Arrowsmith and Susannah Morgan.
There is an obituary for the wife of William Arrowsmith in 1900 that says she was born in Glasgow about 1818, came to Australia at the age of 15 and married William in Bathurst three years later:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137943457?searchTerm=arrowsmith%20stroud&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1900-01-01|||dateTo=1900-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||l-advcategory=Article|||sortby
There is a possible arrival record for this Susannah Morgan as a servant unassisted passenger by that name, nationality English, in July 1835 on the Hercules (and interestingly, on the same boat was a John Harrowsmith, settler).
I haven't yet worked out how William arrived.
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HI
Family tree on 2001 first Families Hannah arrived on the ship Layton 1833
Muss
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Roser, when linking to trove articles you can click on the little 'i' in the white circle, at the top left of the page and then copy the Article Indentifier.
It gives you a neat link e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13016246
Alternatively, you can use 'shrink link' to reduce URLs: http://www.rootschat.com/links/
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar, yes that sounds much better and easier than posting huge four line links! Cheers
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Hi
William Arrowsmith is my husband's GGG/grandfather.
There is a John Harrowsmith and a Susannah Morgan who both arrived on the Hercules in July 1835.
William and Susannah Morgan married on 24 Mar 1838 in Bathurst. It looks as if Susannah (nee Morgan) died the following year on the 31 May 1839 in Bathurst.
William went on to have several children with Hannah Doherty, who is named as his wife on his 1872 death certificate.
The living children listed on William's death certificate were: William, John, Margaret, Mary, twins Edward & Elizabeth, and George. By the time that Hannah died in 1900 John had predeceased her.
Daughter Jane died in 1857 & son Charles was accidently killed earlier in 1872.
My husband is descended from Elizabeth, she was employed as a general servant by a lady in Newcastle, upon the death of that lady, Elizabeth became the 'wife' of the husband and lived most of her life under the identity of his dead wife.
Elizabeth had her surname recorded at times as 'Harrowsmith' & 'Harris-Smith'
Regards
Ciara :)
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Here is a link that can be magnified to view each name and their occupation
http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-62574532
Cheers Neil
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@ Kensi.... long shot, as this is an old post, but your Husband's Elizabeth, I believe is sister to my GGG Grandmother Margaret. All other details are also in my tree (William Arrowsmith etc).
I am wondering if you have any further information relating to the family. I have some conflicting info my end.
There is conflicting info with Margaret being Arrowsmith or Smith. I can't find anything on her, apart from just some basic stuff, and all research stops with her daughter Mary Deamer. Old 'hear say' here is that my Margaret took the identity also of the Margaret Arrowsmith.
Anyway, any info would be great.
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Hello Lita T.
Where can we view your tree (William Arrowsmith etc.)
There are a couple of trees on Ancestry. Is it one of them?
I hope Kensi sees your post and chats with you about your interesting family.
Meantime, it would be worth your while to get a transcription of the birth certificate of a child of William and Hannah born after 1856. It will show mother's maiden name and at least help settle that controversy. Morgan/Doherty. ;D. If you have not already done this.
Perhaps George. ARROWSMITH 6401/1857
Sue
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Hi Sue
Our tree is on ancestry, but private at moment, as we are researching some info that has been recorded incorrectly.
I have Mary's birth Cert, which list William and Margaret, but unfortunately birth certs/transcripts for Margaret and her parents are not on file, as I've been told they are too.old, so goes to church records, which are not providing enough info.
Interesting my sister and I have no DNA matches come with Margaret, only William, which makes me wonder if the identity swap happened. With William, I have Matches with William.
Our ancestey is like opening Pandora's box, there's so much conflicting info with DNA compared to written evidence.
Oh the saga continues. I hope Kensi sees my post and may have some info. Otherwise a trip back to Dingog may solve issues.
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hi Lita.
The point of my suggestion about getting a birth certifcate for a child of William and Hannah is to define with certainty that the mother's name was DOHERTY not MORGAN. (See previous pages of this thread).
George was born to them after civil registration in NSW. If completed correctly it will offer a good deal of valuable information.
Just recommending that you do not focus too much on the recent interesting discrepancies if there is doubt about the earlier fundamentals ;D and I am not seeing much in the way of certificates in current published research on this family
Sue
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Hi Sue
Yes I understand why having birth Cert. I have ordered heaps over time for ancestors. Trouble is BDM don't have it. I've ordered it twice and all I get is baptism. And the details say William Smith and Anne Dogherty. Yet all other doc says Arrowsmith. Are they different people with exact same details, or did they drip the 'Arrow', or isnit something else. To hard to put all the detail of the research in this thread, but I need to find out the historical info, so I can work out where it fits currently.
There's so much incorrect info on Ancestry, so trying to ensure that I sift through what is correct.
Found heaps on trove about George I think it was.
Agh the saga continues 😁
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Of course they have it!
ARROWSMITH GEORGE
6401/1857
Parents WILLIAM And HANNAH
At DUNGOG
Sue
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Hi Sue
Have you been talking about birth cert for George? I've been talking about Margaret, and they don't have her birth Cert. However, ordering George may list his other siblings (Inc Margaret), so might be worth checking out.
Margaret is my line of heritage.
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Hi Lita,
I think you need to carefully read back over the whole thread.
It seems like you are missing parts and there is confusion.
My advice. Get George's DC. Details above.
Kensi was last onlinehere in 2019.
Sue