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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: An65 on Tuesday 04 January 11 22:01 GMT (UK)
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There are actually several John Doral (or alternative spellings) Denmans in Lincs at various times.
Im not related, Im doing this out of interest of the Denmans later family history living in the parish of Brothertoft. But have seen several times on various messageboards people searching for this person and I thought Id post here what I believe I have found because it may be of use to someone else.
John Doral Denman b.cir 1799 "Authorn Hill" according to the census. There is as far as I am aware, no such place. John Doral Denman married Mildred Hall in 1828 at Coningsby, and his eldest son Joseph was baptised there a year later.
Its my belief that John Doral Denman came from a tiny hamlet called "Hawthorn Hill" located by Dogdyke, just south of Coningsby. At the turn of the 1800s there was no parish church at Chapel Hill or Dogdyke, so the nearest churches would have been Coningsby or Tattershall.
I thought it was interesting to note that in 1797 a Joseph Denman married Ann Riggall. They had some children baptised at Coningsby according to the IGI/FREEReg but I have not found John. Hopefully, its a good pointer in the right direction.
I do have info on later Denman family of Brothertoft if anyones interested.
Good luck to anyone seaching.
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A couple of entries in my marriage index
1761 Spalding, Dorril DENMAN/Mary KITCHIN
1785 Saxilby, Derril DENMAN/Sarah WILLSON
They are both in the IGI ... if you think of those spellings :)
No DORAL/DORRIL/DERRIL marriage in my index, I don't think it's a Lincs surname.
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Hi Geoff
yeah I found those theres something going on there with the continual ref to "Dorel" (and alternative spellings) as a middle name. It goes on for generations and includes a fair few with Dorell (etc) as a first name.
From what Ive been able to come up with so far, it seems that it goes back to the mid 1600s when a Denman-Dorrel marriage took place, and its been remembered by the famiy. This family began a hospital in East Retford Notts, and died out. But there were "kin" in Torksey and Saxilby, near Lincoln. I would suggest tentatively thats where the link lies, but at the moment the concrete link escapes me.
As prev mentioned Im not related - although my dad went to school at Brothertoft with a direct descendant. My main reason for posting tonight has been to clear up the misinterpretation of placename "Authorn Hill" on the census, which has lead several people researching this family awry. My hope is to help them find their way from here (although Id certainly like the info too!).
Thanks x
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My main reason for posting tonight has been to clear up the misinterpretation of placename "Authorn Hill"
We've had fun with that place before :) http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,83601.msg439580.html#msg439580
Only in Lincs could a place 12 feet above sea level be called a hill!
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aye and wouldnt it be hard to climb!! :D
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My main reason for posting tonight has been to clear up the misinterpretation of placename "Authorn Hill" on the census, which has lead several people researching this family awry. My hope is to help them find their way from here (although Id certainly like the info too!).
Thanks x
Try "Hawthorn Hill". If you go on Google maps and ask for directions from Coningsby, it's only 1.9 miles away ;)
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Many thanks it only reinforces my own belief.
(re-read the thread ;) )
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Hi all,
Further to the "Dorrel" subject=This is a very common middle name among Denmans and the reason can be found on Nottinghamshire History site.
Search for Retford and you will find "The History of The Olde Hall of the Manor of West Retford"
The three principal families were the Hercys,Denmans and Darrels.
Ann Denman married a Darrel in Retford (hence the name in various spellings).Their grandaughter married King James 2nd and two of their daughters became queens=Mary 2nd and Anne.
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Hi my name Liz Denman. I'm a direct relation to the Denmans at Hawthorne Hill. I'm fact I live about 15 miles away. My aunt is called Barbara Dorrell Denman. As you can see we haven't moved vary far in the last few Hundred years
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Hi my name Liz Denman. I'm a direct relation to the Denmans at Hawthorne Hill. I'm fact I live about 15 miles away. My aunt is called Barbara Dorrell Denman. As you can see we haven't moved vary far in the last few Hundred years
My dad's schoolfriend was Pete Denman his dad was known as Truey but his real name was John. His father was Trueman Denman and his, the John Doral Denman of Hawthorn Hill.
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An65,thanks for your posts,which I read with interest.
My grandfather was John Dorrell Denman,born 1875 at Heckington Fen.His father David was born 1840 at the North Forty Foot Bank (Now Holland Fen) near Brothertoft.
I can't quite get to Davids father,but David was down in a later census as living with his elderly mother named only as "Milley". Could this be Mildred Hall,do you think?
David married a widow,Elizabeth Patchett nee Richardson in 1873.
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Yeah hes the son of John Doral Denman of Hawthorn Hill (Dogdyke) who married Mildred Hall. They married 1828 at Coningsby.
B.abt 1840 North Forty Foot Bank his siblings were:
Joseph Danell Denman c. 1829 Coningsby
Mary Denman b. Abt 1831
Henry Doral Denman b.1833 North Forty Foot Bank d. 1920 Racine Wisconsin.
John Doral Denman b.abt 1837 Fosdyke Fen (area near Holland Fen church, no doubt still on the NFFB). He married Betsey Kime and lived in a house in Brothertoft churchyard. Theyre the ancestors of my dads friend Pete.
David Doral Denman b.abt 1840 NFFB married Elizabeth Mary widow of Charles Patchett. I know of 2 sons John and David, both born Heckington. John went to Vancouver but returned in 1918.
If you hunt for John and Amelia (as opposed to Mildred) in the 1841 census you will find they are all on the NFFB and David is there with them. They are also together in 1851 when Mildred has her real name.
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An65 Many thanks for your reply/help.
Is there any particular reason why "Milley" should be named Amelia in the 1841 census,but Mildred in the 1851?
Also,any idea who John Doral's (Mildreds husband) father was ?Would love to go back as far as poss.
Again,many thanks.
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Census enumerators had a hard job, especially back then as the general population could neither read or write, so largely went by what they thought they heard, or were told. If John said his wife was called Millie the enumerator could have written Amelia because he assumed that was her name, rather than the rather uncommon Mildred.
however she is called Mildred Hall at their wedding in Coningsby 3rd March 1828, and listed as being of an extra-parochial place North 40 Foot in Holland Fen. Whereas John Denman is listed as being of Coningsby. No clues as to parentage in the wedding, the witnesses were Thomas Hand and Samuel Blackburn.
There is a Joseph Denman & Anne Riggall having children in Coningsby from 1797-1815, our John might belong to them.
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Just took a look at Joseph Denmans marriage 23 January 1797 at Coningsby. He claims to be from Retford Notts at time of marriage, while his wife Ann Riggall is of Coningsby. Again no other clues with witnesses being James Shaw and James Blackburn.
If you want to see these Google Lincs to the Past website and type Coningsby marriage into the search box and then go to images and find the right year.
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An65,again I am much obliged for your help.
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Ann Denman, widow of Joseph, nee Riggall, Appears on the 1851 census living with her son Henry. They are living at Hawthorn Hill. So I believe you have the parents names.
Ann Riggall came from Wragby and her parents were Martin & Mary.
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Bit more for you, Joseph died at Dogdyke (Hawthorn Hill) 1835 and was buried at Coningsby. His wife Ann was also buried there after her death in 1856.
Trying to find Joseph birth is difficult, as since he doesn't appear on census we can't be certain where he was born. However, it's likely that that far back we could be moving back towards Retford, Notts. there was a Joseph born there in 1773 but according to the Ancestry family trees his family appear to be well documented. There is, though, another Joseph b.1777 at West Markham who doesn't appear to have stayed there. (died a child/moved away??) So it's worth looking into him as West Markham not that far from Retford. This Joseph parents were John and Catherine.
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Graham GD are you related to Lloyd Denman?
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Black cat1,Yes he's my late father,did you know him?
An65,Many thanks for more interesting info.
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I meet him a couple of times. He was my dad's cousin
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Black cat1,Who was your dad?
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By the way, John Dorrell Denman of Heckington who went to Vancouver, returning in 1918 and dying 1923, he was supposed to be related to Earl Denman. Earl Denman unsuccessfully tried to scale Mt Everest with Sherpa Tensing. I don't know if it's true because I don't have access to Canadian records but you know, if you know, I'd like to know ;)
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My dad was Roy. Jack's brother
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Earl Denman was my uncle (my fathers brother),both sons of John Dorrell Denman.If you go on abe books and search for "Alone to Everest",you can read his story.You can buy a copy very cheaply.
When Tenzing reached the summit with Hillary,he was wearing a woollen hat given to him by Earl.Both Earl and my father were born on Vancouver Island,but had to return to Heckington as young boys because their father was crippled with ill health.
John Dorrells wife was Harriett Allat from Swaton near Heckington.
I've just been looking at the Joseph you mention born 1773.His parents were Francis Denman and Hannah Cade.I was a bit thrown by the fact that she was born and they were married at Gamston,because I assumed it was Gamston,Nottingham.I've just discovered that there is a Gamston just south of Retford though and this must be the place.Joseph was christened on Xmas day,1773.
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Black cat1, That's amazing.Your dad Roy was one of the nicest men I've ever met.I used to spend the whole summer holiday for three or four years running staying with Jack and Elsie and working on the farm.
Roy would let me drive the tractor pulling a binder,cutting whole fields of corn when I was 10 and 11.Can you imagine that being allowed nowadays?!!
I can also remember meeting his father,Charlie.
Roy was a great guy and my memories of him are all good.
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Thanks for the lovely words.
I think I spent the first 5years of my life on a tractor with him and uncle Jack.
My dad always liked your dad but was always jealous of his height.
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Thank you very much for the extra info, I shall add it to my records.
For your notes:
John Doral Denman and Mildred had John Doral Denman 1837 who married Betsey Kime daughter of Trueblood kime and Sarah Lawson.
They married in 1865 and lived at the churchyard cottage in Brothertoft.
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John and betseys children were. John James 1867-8, Sarah A b1872 m. Alfred Starmer, Annie 1877 m. Alfred Leyton, Trueman 1875 married Annie Elizabeth Ashwell, Elizabeth 1880 married Joseph Markham Cook, John b1883, and Harry b1883 married Annie Haw.
Truey and Annie had John George 1909 married Ada Skinner and they had my dad's friend Peter 1932-97. He never married.
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Lloyd used to be a policeman,so had to be a certain height in those days.
My sister and I are hoping to meet up with Jacks daughters,Catherine and Zena this summer for a trip down memory lane.
Roys grandfather David originates from Holland Fen,so will have a drive around there among other places.
As you are on here,I assume you're researching the family history?If so,how are you getting on?
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I was a bit bored a few weeks ago so just put in the surname and found all this. I also found where they are doing DNA tests of male Denmans to find out if we originate from one place/person.
It's all interesting. Barbra (ginty) started researching it several years ago. I think she got back to 1600s but by then it was getting very confusing with branches of the family going all over.
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An65,thanks for that.
A few weeks ago I bought a book from a bookshop in Retford titled "Holland Fen with Brothertoft".
It's only a slim volume,but among the old photo's there are two giving the front and rear view of the cottage in Brothertoft churchyard.(which was demolished about 1940)
Amazingly,the couple who once lived there are pictured standing before it and named as "Mr.Mrs.Johnny Denman" !
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Black cat1,It seems almost certain that the Denmans originate in Retford.We went there recently and even the town library is called The Denman Library!
From there,they branched out all over the place,including Lincolnshire (our mob!)
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According to the DNA site there was 2 clusters of Denmans. One in Nottinghamshire and the other in Sussex.
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Black cat1,
I remember Ginty very well.I can still picture the large old kitchen at Holme House where she cooked for Roy and Charles.
Is she still living at Grantham?
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Hi Black cat1 and Graham GD :)
You two might find it useful to exchange messages using the PM system.
Just click on the other guy's name and then "Send PM". You can then exchange e-mail addresses and photos or ... anything. :)
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Black cat1,
If you're interested,go to nottshistory.org ,where you'll find an old book called "The History of The Olde Hall of the Manor Of West Retford" written by Edwin Wilmshurst,1908.
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Ah yes Mrs Brammers booklet Holland Fen with Brothertoft. I have a copy and also swapped emails about the parish with her as I'm interested in the place dad was born. If you find the pic of Hedgehog Bridge school in there my dad's 3rd from the right on the front row. I know the pic you mean. And yes that is them outside. It must have been before 1925 when he died. After that it became derelict and eventually was knocked down. But not before my dad's generation and Pete played in it.
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Glad to hear you've got a copy of the book.I have to go now,but hope to chat to you again soon.All the best.
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You too. Check your private messages. :)