RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 04 January 11 09:51 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt...... and I for one am totally intrigued by it.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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Robert Shadforth Senior was born in 1722. He died in 1810, aged 88, in Hartlepool, County Durham. He was a Weaver and Parish Clerk of St Hilda’s, Hartlepool. He first married Jane Shepherd (1720-1757) on 5 January 1754, St Hilda’s, Hartlepool.
His second wife was Dorothy Middleton (1722-1766) though I have not yet found the record of the marriage, which took place about 1758; children of this marriage were Robert Shadforth Junior born 1758, Mary 1760, Edward 1761-61.
After Dorothy’s death in 1766, Robert Senior married Margaret Hett (1730-1808) on 9th September 1766.
Robert Shadforth Junior married Alice Laws on 10 January 1785 at St Hilda’s Church, Hartlepool. Witnesses were William Burrell and Ann Coulson. Robert Junior was 27 and Alice was 39.
The next record we get is the baptism of William Shadforth, their child, which states: “William Shadforth baptised 20 April 1788, born 7 March 1788. Illegitimate son of Robert Shadforth (Junr) and Alice (his Wife).”
About the same time, Alice Shadforth dies: “Alice Shadforth buried 23 April 1788 age 42 yr. Wife of Robert Shadforth junr.”
And baby William, aged about six weeks, also dies: “William Shadforth bur 25 April 1788, illegitimate son of Alice, wife of Robert Shadforth”
On 17th August 1788 Robert marries Mary Whittingham at Billingham and their child, Thomas, is born on 31st March 1789.
It is worth pointing out that Robert Shadforth Senior was Parish Clerk, and Robert Shadforth Junior was not only Sexton, but also a governor of the Friary Workhouse, Hartlepool. Clearly the Shadforth family had a fairly high standing in the area and it is possible that one of them was responsible for writing up the Parish Records.
I would appreciate help with the following:
1. Why would baby William be shown as illegitimate in the parish records when they clearly state he is the son of Robert? Is there any way of finding out if Robert and Alice were separated at the time of William’s birth? Could she have been in the workhouse? Is there a record of Bastardy in this case? And what of the untimely but obviously convenient death of Alice and her baby?
2. I can’t find any trace of Alice Laws or her family in the Hartlepool area, so any clues as to her origin would also be greatly appreciated.
I know it’s not going to be possible to find out precisely what went on here, but I would appreciate both facts and thoughts about the situation and the ultimately desperate plight of Alice and baby William.
(ADDED: This has just come to my attention. It might save a lot of duplication. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498454.msg3552447.html#msg3552447 )[/color]
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:) Hmmm... nice one.
Flowers to do and back later..
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Hi Lesanne........ you're here before Toni........ ;D ;D
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'Robert jnr was 27 Alice was 39'
I wonder if she was a widow?
Do the Hartlepool parish records around that time show if a bride was a widow?
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My first thought - even today, giving birth is more risky for women in their 40s - there's a higher chance of hypertension, eclampsia and haemorrhage. In those days, those could have been fatal (and never mind the omnipresent risk of postnatal infection in those days). So perhaps it's sad but not too surprising that Alice died so soon after childbirth.
And with the mother dead, the baby wouldn't last long unless a suitable wetnurse could be found. So again, sad but not surprising that little William followed Alice into the grave.
The only things I can think of re the illegitimacy is that either Robert was working away and everyone knew he couldn't have been the father; or perhaps marital relationships were not good and he denied paternity! Would his word automatically be believed in the latter circumstance?
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This link has just been brought to my attention. It may help in the search.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498454.msg3552447.html#msg3552447
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I am confused with "Greensleeves" in the title. Are you looking for the name Greensleeves?
I have heard of the family name Greenleaves in Cheshire and Newton le Willows area. Recently.
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I am confused with "Greensleeves" in the title. Are you looking for the name Greensleeves?
I have heard of the family name Greenleaves in Cheshire and Newton le Willows area. Recently.
No ScouseBoy........ it's Greensleeves (her username) Scavenger Hunt. She will be along soon.
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Reading the other thread I'm still a bit confused but basically has anyone seen either the original parish records or a filmed copy of them?
I'm asking in case there was something written about the child which wasn't on a transcription.
Perhaps posters don't want to say this but it has been alluded to on that thread that it may have been physically obvious that the child wasn't Robert's child although if it was perhaps mixed race then he may not have been actually the son of a coloured man but with our knowledge of genetics there may have been some coloured ancestry on Alice's side.
I'm sure any port town even then had it's share of children who were the result of mixed race relationships but I would wonder if these were considered to be from the lower end of society and for it to happen in a respected family wasn't acceptable.
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:) After reading thru the thread, I also wonder if the original record book has an ink blot... ::)
They do make the transcriptions weird and wonderful, sometimes..
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just bookmarking now christmas is finished with and kids are back to school i might get a bit more time on the PC
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Tax records would show who was paying tax on a property at this time – everyone had to pay tax
Parish records i.e. minuted meetings might shed some more light along with manorial rolls
As Jaywit said could Alice be a widow so thus not Alice Laws
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If it wasn't for the fact that Alice apparently died as a result of childbirth (has the PR burial record been checked to see if a cause of death is mentioned?), I might suggest something a bit left of field ... and that is ...
William is the illegitimate son of Robert.
Alice is Robert's wife.
The mother of William is not named in the PR.
;D
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Alice was 39 at the date of the marriage and 42 when she died 3 years later, so almost certain to be the same Alice not a second wife of the same christian name.[this happens on my tree and has caused some confusion to other researchers who have not looked at the PRs, only the census.]
Have you considered that Robert and Alice were not living together, maybe even living with other partners, ie; the speedy marriage of Robert after Alices death. She[Alice] would still be his wife and the record would have to state that, and also as husband, the father. With his family being so involved with the church, maybe even writing up the records they would take the opportunity to make a note to try and distance him from the child.
Maybe it would be possible to find where they are living, but not being census years the search becomes more difficult.
If you have access to the PRs[or copy of] then you most probably will be able to see who wrote them.
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Were Alice and William buried in the same grave?
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Was she an inmate in the work house or did she work there,?
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governor[/color] of the Friary Workhouse, Hartlepool. Clearly the Shadforth family had a fairly high standing in the area and it is possible that one of them was responsible for writing up the Parish Record
.This is a quote from Greensleeves notes, just does not look like it, not sure what happened.
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governor[/color] of the Friary Workhouse, Hartlepool. Clearly the Shadforth family had a fairly high standing in the area and it is possible that one of them was responsible for writing up the Parish Record
.This is a quote from Greensleeves notes, just does not look like it, not sure what happened.
Viewing the original PR would confirm this wouldn't it?.
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The PRs may have the fact that a person baptised or buried was an inmate of the workhouse. Myself I can see no mention of Alice being an inmate, the only mention of the workhouse is that Robert was a governor of that institution. I think it is a red herring, but will need to be checked if possible. Always the possibilty that Alice had an affair or some such and became pregnant, and Robert, certain it was not his could have thrown her out, thereby she might have ended up in the workhouse. This is all conjecture, nothing as far as I can see to say she was in the workhouse.
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Ok.. quick while it's still in my head...
Illegitimate.. If the wife had died prior to the baptism (3/4 days) Robert would be a widow and no longer married. Making the baptism out of wedlock and Illegitimate....
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But the child would have been born in wedlock - you wouldn't call someone who has lost a parent illegitimate, I don't think.
I think it is more likely that the parish clerk (e.g. Robert's dad) knew his daughter in law had been playing away and so decided to note his displeasure (never dreaming that in 150 years on, there would be people pondering over every nuance!)
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Hi everyone - sorry for the delay in joining you. Will read back to catch up with what's been going on. Much appreciate all the help!
Regards,
GS
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maybe they married after the child was conceived ???
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• Manorial Records, after 1066 the land of England was divided into Manors granted to faithful servants of the King. These did not always correspond with the boundaries of villages, towns, parishes etc. and often had their own name.
Manorial Court Rolls these refer to two types of court, Baron Court & Lett Court the latter tends to deal with law and order, on the other hand Court Baron is concerned with recording those who held land from the manor.
(Manorial) Rental, listing all the tenants in a manor their holdings and how much they paid in rent to the manor. copyhold (now called leasehold 19th c) if you lived in or owned a house that technically came under the Manor upon death or any over reason for the property being passed to another party even down the family line you would have to apply to the lord of the manor to do so and his consent would have to be given – even in wills (these should be recorded in the Manor estate documents and possibly the court rolls)
Manorial Accounts recorded the income and expenditure of the manor though these generally do not contain personal names.
Manorial Documents were written in Latin until 1733.
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– Parish Rates - The Parishioners at Parish Meetings approved rated for the relief of the poor, upkeep of the church, maintenance of the roads etc. – these rates were levied according to full rents of the estates – Assessments were made out in books showing the rental value of each property in pounds and shillings and the rate payable in pounds shilling and pence – when allowed a schedule was given and signed also.
* Rate Books
put simply record money charged to and collected from householders - a form of local taxation.
to begin with they were entered into different books but later combined into general rates.
the early books are in written format but the later printed ones had entries under these headings:~
no. of property being rated
name of occupier
name of owner (which may be the occupier or not)
description of property , i.e. barns / stables/ cottage
name or situation of property (i.e. address)
the estimated area of the property expressed in yards, acres, roods and poles
the gross estimated rental
the rateable value
the amount of rate to be paid
the amount of rate collected if any.
these range from 18th century to the mid 20th century although a few exist from earlier i.e. 16th & 17th century
rate books only list the head of household sometimes by surname only
address are not always given in full
the further back you go the less detail you will find
Rate books will be held at TNA (Kew) or the Local RO
To check if anything has been transcribed in your area google
'poor rate books' 'church rate books' general rate books' etc etc
A2A will give you access to the catalogues of many respiritories search the area you want for rate book/s as the keyword with/without spaces
• Window Tax or Light Tax was introduced in 1696 (to replace Hearth tax) with amendments in 1747 and 1797. it was abolished in 1851.
The value to historians is the collection of names, usually of the tax-payers.
After 1784, house and window tax asesments were consolidated; they were then known asthe 'assessed taxes'. These were taxes imposed on male and female servants, carriages, carts,hair powder, horses , shops and waggons.
These assessed taxes can provide a wealth of information on the everyday and business lives of taxpayers.
The information can help, not only with names but tell the researcher whether or not an ancestor was a shop keeper, owned a horse, used hairpowder, employed servants and how many windows their house had.
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was the child bp. as an adult in which case it possibly is not Roberts sons but Alices from a first marriage but bp in his name to enable him to inherit or something ?
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Thanks for all that, Toni - I will go through it in a mo.
First, just to clarify, Robert Junior and Alice married at St Hilda's, Hartlepool on 10 Jan 1785. I got this from Durham Records Online. The entry doesn't state whether Alice was single or a widow, but I agree that at her age it is likely that this was a second marriage. The record does state the witnesses' named - William Burrell and Ann Coulson, so I am wondering if either or both of them were related to Alice.
But the marriage date shows that she and Robert had been married for just over three years when William was born in March 1788.
Hmm, just a thought - if Alice was married before and husband disappeared, she remarried and then Husband No 1 returned, that presumably would make baby William illegitimate.... But it wouldn't explain why the PR states "illegitimate son of Robert Shadforth (junr) and Alice (his wife)..."
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was the child bp. as an adult in which case it possibly is not Roberts sons but Alices from a first marriage but bp in his name to enable him to inherit or something ?
The PR on Durham Records Online gives the baptism thus:
"Baptism St Hilda's Church, Hartlepool.
20 Apr 1788 William Shadforth, born 7 Mar 1788, illegitimate son of Robert Shadforth (jun'r) & Alice (his wife)"
I assume Alice was still alive at this point, or she would have been described as 'late wife', I assume...? However, she was buried on 23rd April, three days later, whilst William was buried on 25th April, aged about six weeks.
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I think it is more likely that the parish clerk (e.g. Robert's dad) knew his daughter in law had been playing away and so decided to note his displeasure (never dreaming that in 150 years on, there would be people pondering over every nuance!)
I am wondering this too, whether the Roberts (father and son) were going out of their way to discredit Alice. I would really like to find out who she is and where she came from. As she was so much older than Robert Jnr it could well be that the family didn't approve of the union in the first place.
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And with the mother dead, the baby wouldn't last long unless a suitable wetnurse could be found. So again, sad but not surprising that little William followed Alice into the grave.
The only things I can think of re the illegitimacy is that either Robert was working away and everyone knew he couldn't have been the father; or perhaps marital relationships were not good and he denied paternity! Would his word automatically be believed in the latter circumstance?
I am making the assumption that Robert Jnr was not working away as he was the Sexton of the church, but I suppose that does not preclude him from going off on trips. I don't think I have found out what his occupation was, other than sexton. Would that have been a full-time job?
And of course, as Robert Jnr was sexton and his father, Robert Snr, was Parish Clerk, it was likely that one of them might have been making the entry in the Parish Records, so basically he would be free to enter what he wanted, I assume.
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Perhaps posters don't want to say this but it has been alluded to on that thread that it may have been physically obvious that the child wasn't Robert's child although if it was perhaps mixed race then he may not have been actually the son of a coloured man but with our knowledge of genetics there may have been some coloured ancestry on Alice's side.
I'm sure any port town even then had it's share of children who were the result of mixed race relationships but I would wonder if these were considered to be from the lower end of society and for it to happen in a respected family wasn't acceptable.
Yes, Jaywit, I had wondered this too. Of course, it could have been something like red hair or as you say, a child a shade darker than expected. As nothing was known about genetics in those days, if the marriage was in trouble, I suppose that a child's physical appearance could be used to suggest a wife had been unfaithful - particularly if the husband wanted to cast her, and the child, aside.
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This may be coincidence but there's a burial for a William Laws,taylor,(sic) St Hildas 12 Feb 1776 and a marriage at St Hildas 24 Aug 1774 between a William Laws & Alice Burrel,by Banns,Witnesses Robert Shadforth & Jane Hastings these are from Durham Records Online but of course may not have anything to do with your Alice.
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This may be coincidence but there's a burial for a William Laws,taylor,(sic) St Hildas 12 Feb 1776 and a marriage at St Hildas 24 Aug 1774 between a William Laws & Alice Burrel,by Banns,Witnesses Robert Shadforth & Jane Hastings these are from Durham Records Online but of course may not have anything to do with your Alice.
Oh, Angelfish, that looks very interesting! How fascinating, I will follow this up, thank you so much for this.
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Oh, just noticed that one of the witnesses to the marriage of Robert Shadforth Jnr and Alice Laws was William BURRELL....
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Oo-er,that's interesting
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sounds v promising! :D
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parish clerks weren't meant to be making the entries in the parish registers at this time, although some of them probably did.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/podcasts/parish-admin-records.htm
:-\
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Thanks for that Osprey. I suppose it fell to whoever was the most literate..... or organised!
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I have found two baptisms at about the right time, if Alice was indeed Alice Burrel(l):
19 Sep 1748 Alice Burrell, daughter of Robert Burrell, baptised at St Hilda's, Hartlepool
5 July 1747 Alice Burrell of Panns, born 5 Apr 1747 daughter of John Burrell, at St Michael's, Bishopwearmouth
There is also the baptism at St Hilda's of Alice Burrel, daughter of William and Margaret Burrel on 30 Jul 1738, but I think this would make Alice too old as she would have been nearly 50 in 1785.
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Does anyone know how I can access the bastardy records for Hartlepool to see if baby William was entered thereon?
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Does anyone know how I can access the bastardy records for Hartlepool to see if baby William was entered thereon?
If no one here knows it would be well worth asking on the Durham board where all the experts hang out. ;)
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https://www.familysearch.org/s/search/library_catalog#searchType=catalog&filtered=true&fed=false&collectionId=&catSearchType=place&searchCriteria=&placeName=England%2C+Durham%2C+Hartlepool&author_givenName=&author_surname=
Someone may shorten this link.. :)
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Here you go, Les ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b3i/
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If they knew that the child was illegitimate they wouldn’t have wanted to pay for his upkeep and every effort would have been made to find the putative father.
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If the baby died at 6 weeks of age I honestly don't think there would have been time for any bastardy proceeding to take place.
I think sight of the PRs would help, you can see if the same person was making entries all the time, you get a feeling for their style and what exactly they did record, something transcriptions don't let you do.
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Was Alice cast out for having a child illegitimately? where did she die?
Sometimes the reputed father is listed in the pr’s
Was the child the eldest boy?
In which case he would be due to inherit if he was the son of Robert if he was not the son of Robert then he would have no inheritance maybe this is why he was regarded as illegitimate to enable someone else to inherit.
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That is an interesting point, Toni, as Robert Jnr remarried less than four months after the death of Alice - on 17 August 1788 - and as their son, Thomas, was born on 31 March 1789, it seems that his new wife, Mary Whittingham, was pregnant at the time.
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If the baby died at 6 weeks of age I honestly don't think there would have been time for any bastardy proceeding to take place.
I think sight of the PRs would help, you can see if the same person was making entries all the time, you get a feeling for their style and what exactly they did record, something transcriptions don't let you do.
I think I need to visit the records office in Durham, don't I? Pity I live in Wales ......
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Have you got a LDS Family History Centre anywhere near to you?
If so I would order the PR film there and look at them, see if they give any clues.
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I might be misreading it but it looks as if the films available are of transcripts :-\
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Have you got a LDS Family History Centre anywhere near to you?
If so I would order the PR film there and look at them, see if they give any clues.
Oh thanks for this, Jaywit - I have a friend who is far more knowledgeable than I am on these things - I will contact her to see if she knows of an LDS Family History Centre in Wales because it would certainly be worth looking at those records. It is such a shame that there are no BTs on Family Search for Hartlepool of the relevant period. I got some really interesting stuff off there for another branch of the family who were at Sunderland/Bishopwearmouth.
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I might be misreading it but it looks as if the films available are of transcripts :-\
Looks like I am building up a pretty good excuse for a holiday in Durham..... :)
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There are several family search centres in Wales:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
I believe that you can order fiches through them and then use their facilities to read the fiches (you can't take the fiche away with you). The loan period is for 3 months and it costs £7.50 --- bargain!
(hope that is all correct - I've a friend doing this through on of the centres atm, I'm sure that's what she said!)
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Oh thanks Annie, that's great. I see there is one in Swansea where daughter is at uni so I could combine a visit to the records centre with lunch, perhaps..... :)
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I had a look on the North East Inheritance database but the only Shadforth Will in Hartlepool was for a William Shadforth,barber,probate 1762.
There is a Will for William Burrell,plumber & glazier of Hartlepool,probate 26 Aug 1771.
You can search from http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/intro.php
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That's an interesting site, Angelfish - and it has given me a bit more info on someone else in the family!
I believe (thought I can't be certain yet) that the parents of Robert Shadforth Senior were Thomas Shadforth and Catherine Pemberton who married on 30 October 1710 at St Michael's Church, Bishopwearmouth. In the PRs they are described as 'of Panns' which is (or was) part of Sunderland where the salt pans were.
Well, when I searched for Shadforth on the link you gave me I found Probate records of:
Thomas Shadforth of Bishop Wearmouth Salt Panns
Date of probate 18 January 1735
Further probate 31 October 1735
Administration bond, penal sum £100, 18 Jan 1735
ditto £50 31 Oct 1735
regranted to Thomas Pemberton as goods were left unadministered by Mary Shadforth widow and relict
and also
Mary Shadforth widow of Bishop Wearmouth Salt Panns also spelt Shadfoorth
Date of probate 23 Aug 1735
Will 22nd Jan 1735
So yet more stuff for me to check out - I am having a great time with all this. How lucky I retired on 31st Dec! :)
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Glad it was useful,the staff at Durham Uni library are really helpful too if you have any queries.
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Angelfish, it looks like there will be hours of fun for me on that website - am most grateful :)
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... Robert Jnr remarried less than four months after the death of Alice - on 17 August 1788 - and as their son, Thomas, was born on 31 March 1789, it seems that his new wife, Mary Whittingham, was pregnant at the time.
Is it fishy or just very convenient that baby William and Alice both died when they did? What were their causes of death? ;)
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By my calculation, Mary Whittingham conceived around the 8 July, which is 10 or so weeks after Alice's death - quick by today's standards but not entirely unreasonable for those times perhaps and especially if there were some "issues" about Alice and her behaviour.
I would look into what other parish records survive from say 1785 to 1795, to see if anything can be gleaned about Robert's (jnr) character and the circumstances surrounding his marriages to Alice and Mary. You could also email the record office to ask their opinion about the wording in the PR - their local knowledge may cast light on the wording. Also I wonder if there was a local newspaper at that time (the RO would be able to tell you); if Alice became pregnant as the result of rape for example, it may have been reported.
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Hi
I'm here ....just finished reading the first thread .... what a mystery ....will be back
deb
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Hi Greensleeves
It would appear that the baby was healthy when born or else it would have been baptised at home privately to be entered into church later if it survived it looks like the mother was giving concern and as someone else has said if the mother was weak the child would not thrive with out a wet nurse and fadewas there any sign of disease in the parish such as cholera a new born and newly delivered mother would easily succumb to any infection were there more deaths than usual in the parish spring 1788?
A sexton was not a full time job and would have held a second post if that is known you could see if he was likely to be away from home at all. It certainly looks like he is making it known that although he accepts the child in his family he does not claim it his natural child
The speedy remarriage looks like the new wife did a bit too much comforting of the widow ;D necessitating the speedy marriage.
I doubt the child would be mentioned in the bastardy records as it appears that Robert is taking them into his family or he would have made sure his name was not associated with the baptism at all
Trees also in need of a trip to Durham
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Just finished reading both threads... lots of material... but I think that one possibility hasn't been mentioned yet - do correct me if it has :)
I have a married couple in my tree whose children were described as illegitimate in their baptism records. This was because, although the parents married (and I have the certificate), the man had previously been married to the woman's sister and therefore, at the time, the subsequent marriage was illegal.
In most cases, once the knot was tied, everyone accepted it and life carried on, but in this one case, the vicar of the church did not accept it and pointedly stated the children were illegitimate.
Is that even remotely possible here in that Alice, being older, could have been married to Robert's brother, who then died?
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GS ...you said you didn't have RS marriage to Dorothy Middleton ...
IGI extracted:
ROBT. SHADFORTH = DORO. MIDDLETON
17 MAY 1752, Easington, Durham
deb
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I wonder if its worth a quick look at the witnesses William Burrell and Ann Coulson. to see if there is a connection to the family :-\
H
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scroll down to the reply from Old Crone!
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this link is a book about illegitimacy
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b43/
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From another forum:
Just look at the words legitimate and illegitimate! These are legal terms. An illegitimate child, originally, was one which was not recognised in law. Illegitimacy quite specifically barred children from inheriting estates or offices. William I of England was illegitimate but gained the throne through conquest.
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I wonder if its worth a quick look at the witnesses William Burrell and Ann Coulson. to see if there is a connection to the family :-\
H
I think angelfish found one back on page 3 ...
Is that even remotely possible here in that Alice, being older, could have been married to Robert's brother, who then died?
That's an interesting thought Angela. But would the same apply if Alice was (bigamously) married to any other man - not just a brother of Robert?
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hi
not that this helps but I've been frantically googling and found this drawing of the Friary in 1780.
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A child of 2 unmarried parents was illegitimate that we know, if the parents married after the child can only be legitimized if one of the parents was not married to a third party when the child was conceived – this doesn’t help in this case but a bit of information for you!
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Is that even remotely possible here in that Alice, being older, could have been married to Robert's brother, who then died?
That's an interesting thought Angela. But would the same apply if Alice was (bigamously) married to any other man - not just a brother of Robert?
It would certainly apply to bigamy in any circumstances, but this anomaly where a man couldn't marry his dead brother's widow and a woman couldn't marry her dead sister's widower did complicate matters a lot ::) Not remotely bigamy, just a forbidden relationship....
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Googling found this ...Google Books
History, directory, and gazetteer, of the counties of Durham and ....
Hartlepool
Directory:
Robert Shadforth: sexton and Governor of the Workhouse, Friary
Wm Shadforth: Farmer of the Mayor's tolls and Constable, Southgate street
list of inhabitants by trade:
Academies:
Michl Shadforth (day) St Mary's Street
Boot and Shoemakers:
Charles Shadforth, Northgate Street
Hairdresssers:
Thomas Shadforth, Northgate Street
ummmmmm are they all related to Robert?
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thinking out loud here:
William Shadforth was bapt s/o Robert Shadforth and wife Alice
then buried as William Shadforth illegit son of Alice.
If Robert knows he's illegitimate could he have not had buried William as "William with Alice's Maiden name" ...?? after all, William would not be a Shadforth, unless he is a Shadforth from one of Robert's brother's.
am I making sense?
deb :-\
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Oh thanks everyone for being so busy in my absence!
Regarding the witness to Robert Jnr and Alice's wedding, WILLIAM BURRELL:
It has been suggested that Alice might have been married previously to WILLIAM LAWS - the entries (cited previously) are thus:
24 Aug 1774 William Laws married Alice Burrel, St Hilda's Church, Hartlepool
Witnesses: Robert Shadforth, Jane Hastings
12 Feb 1776 Burial: William Laws, taylor (sic), St Hilda's Church, Hartlepool
Now, I have estimated that at this time Robert Shadforth Junior would have been about 16 yrs old, so presumably the witness to this wedding was Robert Shadforth Senior.
Now, if this is our Alice, ALICE BURRELL,, there are records of two baptisms at appropriate times for her and possibly her brother, both at St Hilda's:
19 Sep 1748 Alice Burrell daughter of Robert Burrell
10 Jun 1753 William Burrell son of Robert Burrell
So taking Trees' suggestion to look at the witnesses to the marriage of Robert Jnr and Alice, it could well be that WILLIAM BURRELL was Alice's brother. So far I can't find Ann Coulson though.
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Here is another interesting little snippet for you:
Robert Shadforth Senior's third wife was Margaret Hett. Their son, WILLIAM HETT SHADFORTH (born 1767 and half-brother to Robert Jnr) married ANN WHITTINGHAM at Billingham on 18 Jun 1789. ANN is the sister of MARY WHITTINGHAM, the second wife of Robert Shadforth Junior.
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Thanks for all the stuff you have unearthed Deb - I will check it out and report back!
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(Just book-marking ... I have Law/Laws in Durham so am interested !)
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(Just book-marking ... I have Law/Laws in Durham so am interested !)
Oooh, how interesting, Lydart!
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Hi Greensleeves,
I have only just read this thread and in view of its length I may have missed something.
Was Robert (Jr) only the "father" of William and Thomas or were there other children? Is there anything unusual about the wording of the baptism for Thomas?
I'm wondering whether there is any possibility that Robert (Jr) might not have been capable of being a father.
Nigel
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picking up on whats already been said if a child was born out of wedlock they were illegitimate if the parents subsequently married the child became legitimate UNLESS one of the parents was married to a third party at time of conception OR if the father was married to the mothers sister who died and vice versa if the mother was married to the husbands brother who died thus the child would always be illegitimate not always a problem unless they were due to inherit it only became a problem when other people had to pay towards the upkeep of the child if the mother was unable to support it herself financially sometimes extended family would help out
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The following article on illegitimacy may be of interest:
http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/TEXTS/BASTARDY.PDF
Nigel
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It is all well and good to know the definitions and 'rules' regarding illegitimacy, but in this case it is dependent on whether the person who filled in the PR knew and understood the rules, or chose to follow them.
It has been suggested that maybe they had reasons for writing the regsiter for William's baptism in that method. It would be worth checking the other entries to see who wrote the entries (eg was it a Shadforth?) and the wording they used for other illegitimate children.
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hi Ruskie :D :D :D
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It seems to me that Robert jnr's dad, Robert, the Parish Clerk, wanted to "let it be known" that William (Alice's child) was NOT Robert Jnr's.
It sounds like a small town where everyone knows everyone and what they were doing... sounds like a big scandal 8)
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Hi Greensleeves, just popped in to have a look and see how you are doing....pretty good so far!PM
Nothing much here, but just in case they turn out to be related: These people are all in graves in St. Hilda's too.....
http://www.interment.net/data/eng/durham/sthilda/hilda_ag.htm
Burrel, Robert, bur. 28 Nov 1784, Age 35yr, [DO]
Burrell, Jane, bur. 16 Oct 1778, d/o Isaac and Ann, [DO]
Burrell, Margaret, bur. 24 Oct 1791, Widow of Robert, [DO]
Burrell, Margaret, bur. 5 Feb 1780, d/o Isaac and Ann, [DO]
Coulson, Ann, d. 7 Mar 1801, bur. 9 Mar 1801, age: 8mo, d/o Thomas and Isabella, [DO]
Coulson, Benjamin, bur. 20 Feb 1788, age: 63yr, [DO]
Coulson, Benjamin, bur. 21 Jul 1781, s/o George, [DO]
Coulson, Catherine, bur. 20 Dec 1781, Widow, [DO]
Coulson, Eleanor, bur. 12 Oct 1780, w/o Benjamin, [DO]
Coulson, George, bur. 26 Nov 1778, s/o George and Isabella, [DO]
Coulson, George, bur. 31 Jul 1788, s/o George, [DO]
Coulson, George, bur. 5 Mar 1796, [DO]
Coulson, Isabella, d. 2 Aug 1806, bur. 5 Aug 1806, age: 31yr, Consumption, w/o Robert, [DO]
Coulson, James Barclay Coulson, d. 11 Aug 1799, bur. 13 Aug 1799, age: 4mo, s/o Thomas, [DO]
Coulson, James, bur. 13 Jan 1795, [DO]
Coulson, John, bur. 5 Dec 1782, [DO]
Coulson, Mary, bur. 11 Aug 1789, d/o Robert and Barbara, [DO]
Coulson, Mary, d. 9 Aug 1807, bur. 11 Aug 1807, age: 69yr, w/o William, [DO]
Coulson, Nicholas, bur. 18 Aug 1783, s/o George and Isabella, [DO]
Coulson, Robert, d. 7 Oct 1803, bur. 9 Oct 1803, age: 4yr, s/o James, [DO]
Coulson, Sarah, bur. 8 Mar 1789, d/o James and Elizabeth, [DO]
Coulson, William Jnr, bur. 21 Dec 1794, [DO]
Coulson, William, bur. 6 May 1789, s/o William and Mary, [DO]
Coulson, William, d. 25 Feb 1799, bur. 27 Feb 1799, age: 67yr, s/o James, [DO]
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hi Ruskie :D :D :D
Hello Deb m'dear - it looks like we missed eachother :'(
It seems to me that Robert jnr's dad, Robert, the Parish Clerk, wanted to "let it be known" that William (Alice's child) was NOT Robert Jnr's.
It sounds like a small town where everyone knows everyone and what they were doing... sounds like a big scandal 8)
I would love to know the full story behind this.
Too early for any local newspaper reports I imagine? Or none that survive ...
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Is there a register of Parish Clerks somewhere? I know Lambeth Palace hold Anglican clergyman records did you need any qualifications to be a parish clerk except a relationship with God and to be able to scribe? did the people who took on these positions see themselves as higher in the community than others?
Did they receive income for being a parish clerk in which case you must expect there to be some sort of accountancy book.
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I put a link on reply 36 about parish clerks - they were not meant to be making entries in the registers:-
"Now the parish clerk was appointed by the rectoral vicar and acted as his clerk and sometimes as clerk to the vestry. He assisted at the church services and led the responses and in some parishes he would act acted as the sexton as well and actually dig the grave and actually maintain the churchyard. He might sometimes make entries in the parish registers, but he wasn't supposed to. Only the parish priest, witnessed by the churchwardens, should actually make entries in the parish registers. But, sometimes in the 18th century and early 19th century, particularly in the period when the clergy could be very lax, you can find examples of the parish clerks actually making entries in the baptismal and marriage registers although after 1812 it specified in the Parochial Registers Act that it had to be the parish priest that made the entries. And under Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act in 1753, where he required the bride and groom to sign the register or make their mark and their witnesses to sign the register or make their mark, the parish priest had to make the entry in the register. But there are examples of the clerks making entries in baptismal and burial, what we call general registers, in the late 18th century, up to 1812.
[Shows image]
This is an example of an appointment of a parish clerk, Francis Ray in Sutton Maddock, a parish in Shropshire in 1808 in May. Now you might find details of an appointment details of an appointment mentioned in the vestry records, the vestry minutes or in the churchwardens' accounts. But if you don't, then the appointment had to be ratified by the archdeacon and a copy sent to the diocesan registrar. So if there's nothing in the parish records, it's worth checking at the diocesan record office, which is normally a county record office, to see if there are records of appointments of parish clerks, and you usually get a couple of nominations or certainly the nomination from the parish priest saying, 'I would like to appoints so-and-so to be my parish clerk'.
Sometimes you'll get a recommendation as well. "
As said before, checking the registers to see who made the entry & the wording of other entries would look to be the way to go.
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Hi Toni* I have several PCs on my tree there was no official register someone did start compiling a list but hasn't added any for years he acknowledged my submission about three years back but they never appeared on the list. There is a Guild of Parish clerks but they have very few records of them. It depended on the parish if the clerk was paid or just received expenses Some like Yarnton in Oxfordshire had a house and were expected to teach as well as all the other duties. Other small parishes paid expenses which appear in the Wardens accounts, some parishes were left legacies for the upkeep of a clerk. The clerk sang all the responses made sure the congregation were orderly and in regular attendance, rang the calling bell he WAS the second in rank to the priest, The registers were officially kept by the priest but often the clerk wrote them up or at least kept a note book of the various events for the priest to enter He often witnesses marriages so I expect when Greensleeves sees the registers she will find her ancestors name as witness to most weddings in his time of office. The wardens were elected from the congregation or rather one was the second chosen by the priest. The wardens looked after the running of the parish the financial and side selection of poorlaw officials collection of poorlaw rates and so on the clerk helped with the services.while the clerk looked after the services.
Hope that helps the meaning of Clerk can be misleading remember a priest is a Clerk in holy orders but you don't think of him as a secretary either
H.
Red post sorry osprey great minds think alike
added most of mine had other trades such as my Charles Pratt of St Nicholas Warwick who continued shoe making and letter writing for other people
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also with parish clerks in my tree!
;)
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Hi everyone, gosh I have some interesting stuff to read though - thank you all so much.
Robert Shadforth Snr, incidentally, was a Weaver as well as being the Parish Clerk. Robert Junior was the Sexton although I don't yet know what his other trade was; presumably he had one if the sexton role was part-time. Oh, I see he was also listed as 'Governor of the Workhouse, Friary'. So would those two posts add up to a full-time occupation?
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I think the governorship of the workhouse would be his main job, with sexton being the sunday job (literally!)
Sidetracking slightly, I'ver certainly seen PRs where parish clerks have made entries and identified themselves and their entries, usually to add or alter names that were missed or incorrectly entered. Maybe sometimes the priest was ill, old or drunk and the clerk was the more reliable of the two! lol
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Sextons helped the parish clerk and often dug the graves too Many were the sons of Parish clerks and often took over when dad died.
H.
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This may be of interest ; http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=12953
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for whom the bell tolls - 52 times for Alice, 5 for her child - and was Robert doing the tolling?
from: http://steve.pickthall.users.btopenworld.com/pci/6.html
N.B. These notes concern the nature of the job carried out before about 1907. The role of the modern parish clerk is very different - the clerk to the parish council - and is part of the local government organisation.
Parish Clerk - "They should be at least 20 years old. Known to the parson as a man of honest conversation and sufficient for his reading, writing and competent skill in singing" Canon 91(1603).
Functions - reading the lessons and epistles, singing in the choir, giving out the hymns, leading the responses, serving at the altar and other like duties, opening of the church, ringing the bell, digging graves if there be no sexton.
Sexton - usually combined with the parish clerk in country parishes. They are the sacristan, the keeper of holy things relating to divine service. Responsible for the care of the church, vestments and vessels, keeping the church clean, ringing bells, opening/closing doors, digging graves and care of the churchyard. When there was a death in the parish, the sexton would toll the ´passing bell´ - nine times for a married man, eight for a bachelor, seven for a married woman, six for a spinster, five for a boy and four for a girl, then once for each year of a the deceased´s life.
Churchwarden -
Since 1672, a woman has been permitted to carry out the duties of Church Warden, Sexton, Overseer of the Poor or Rate-Collector. (but the index lists a few female parish clerks as well!)
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http://ia700406.us.archive.org/20/items/churchwardensacc00barmrich/churchwardensacc00barmrich_djvu.txt
Not the right parish, but downloading this free e- book gives a great insight into what types of thing were recordrd in Durham parishes. For example:
Ibidem. — Officium dfii con. Tho. Wright, detect, of fornication
with Margret Butler, alias \blauk\ The child was born in North-
umberland at his sister's house there whiche he contryved for.
PM
Could Alice have been similarly accused? And would the St. Hilds's records record it? This example is a lot earlier.
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Well, thank you for all the parish clerk info. So it would appear that Robert Jnr, as Sexton, would have dug the grave(s) for Alice and baby William, and would have tolled the bell....
Thank you for that link Youngtug - I am amazed that the Friary is still there. It certainly looks a bleak place, both on the photos and on the drawing of it which Deb posted earlier.
And thank you too, PM, for joining in the hunt after all your help on the earlier thread. Very interesting links! If anything, this Hunt has showed me how much I don't know about family history research - there seem so many wonderful sources of info out that which I had no idea existed!
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Thought you might like to see this picture of St Hilda's Church, Hartlepool. Looks like quite a substantial place, doesn't it!
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http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42631
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That is really a formidable church - and the inside is very grand as well. It makes the whole Robert/Alice/William scenario even stranger....
www.hartlepool-sthilda.org.uk/page2a.html
Another Coulson/ Shadforth church moment:
JOSEPH PACE married MARY ROWNTREE on 2nd Feb 1792 at St Hilda's Church Hartlepool (Witnesses CUTHBERT COULSON and ROBERT SHADFORTH).
From: http://www.nexicom.net/~gtp3066/uk/durham.htm
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http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42631
Thanks for this interesting link, YT. According to that, at the beginning of the 19th century Hartlepool only had about 900 inhabitants so it really was a relatively small place. This would back up Deb's suggestion that it was a small town where everyone knew everyone's business and that this matter could have been a major scandal.
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Thanks for that info PM. As you say, the church is really quite a formidable place - more like a cathedral than a run-of-the-mill parish church. So clearly the Parish Clerk and the Sexton would have been considered stalwarts of local society, I should think.
I am sure there is some connection between the Shadforths and the Coulsons though I have yet to find out what it is.
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Born 7th of march 1788. Is this a transcripted copy or the original. If transcribed it would be best to check the original in case it was 1782/3 instead of 1788. It was not unusual for baptisms to take place years after the birth, especialy if someone was seriously ill. Alice may not then have died due to childbirth. Not easy to not assume that that is the scenario, but you need proof, or you may be led down a long and fruitless path.
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I had a look at the transcription business. It is complicated - several versions. I think they were very carefully done, but no harm to check with Durham as to where the originals are:
http://nd.durham.gov.uk/recordoffice/usp.nsf/pws/durham+record+office+-+durham+record+office+homepage
Maybe send your summary. say you are planning to visit, where should you go in Durham? I had a great response from a similar request to Islington Record office, and they were terrific when I got there, had all the rate books etc. ready, and got into the story - still not quite there, but a good adventure. I also contacted the parish, and they were lovely and helpful.
All the graves surround the church - I looked up the graveyard on Google, You probably are related to a lot of them....
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you can get a copy of the parish entry from the record office for £3
www.rootschat.com/links/0656/
I've only ordered from them once and I had the copy in a few days.
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just following up on this from the earlier thread:
"Another interesting thing is that one of the Ancestry trees give an address at High St. for Robert - i think it may be yours. British History on line has a great history of the parish:
Church Estate.
The endowments known as the Church property have from time immemorial been leased for the benefit of the church of St. Hilda, the earliest lease extant being dated 25 September 1706. The trust property consists of a dwelling-house and three houses in the High Street, a house and shop on Church Bank, two houses in St. Mary Street, and three cottages known as Fisher Row, and £61 3s. 11d. consols, the whole producing yearly £128 or thereabouts, which is applied to the repair of the fabric of the church.
So Robert and Alice when married may have been living right beside the vestry.....and the Shadforths finances may have been tied to the Church?"
I think Durham University may be a good place to start looking: - just as well you are retired!
http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId=ead/dhc/dhcosurr.xml;query=%22robert%20shadforth%22#1
DHC2/E2/282 5 April 1769
Thomas Shadforth.
DHC2/E2/272 30 July 1768
Robert Shadforth.
To illustrate your point about what a small place it was, this directory from 1827 which features Robert as sexton and workhouse governor:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=uqM3AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA259&dq=hartlepool+street+directories&hl=en&ei=UYUoTdn4PIuFhQebl9WADw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&
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Nice atmospheric print. Hartlepool, Original steel engraving drawn by T. Allom, engraved by W. Le Petit. 1832.
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Here is a good article about English Bastardy. What it lacks is any reference to the idea that a woman could legally have a bastard within wedlock, but does indicate the local parish and church court records are your best bet:
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Illegitimacy_in_England
However, I found a record of a similar situation:
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/illegit.htm.
Includes the idea that the child reverts back to the father at age 7 by law, if the father is paying for upkeep - new to me.
Robt Brew writes his second son for his tenancy upon certificate of the Episcopal Register that Jane Moore the sd Robts wife owns the eldest son to be an illegitimate child and the person accused make penance whereby it debars the eldest son to make title of inheritance to the Premises.
This article has fascinating stuff about parishes.
Another, more scholarly one, which addresses some of the issues raised in this thread:
From: Peter Laslett, Karla Oosterveen and Richard M.Smith (eds.), Bastardy and its Comparative
History (Arnold, 1980)
"Overall, the impression is that bastardy was treated by the church courts as the logical outcome of,
and morally equivalent to, fornication. Only a detailed comparison of sources, for instance to see
whether bastards registered in the parish registers were also presented at the ecclesiastical court,
will begin to tell us what happened in practice.
There are many other difficult points of law and definition to decide in relation to
bastardy. If a couple married and it was subsequently discovered that the marriage had to be
annulled because of some bar, precontract or affinity, for example, were their offspring
illegitimate? The position seems to have been that both by canon and common law, as long as they
had a full church wedding, and it could be shown that at least one of the partners could be proved to
have been in ignorance of the obstacle to marriage, then the children were still legitimate though
the parents were not really married. (15) These were known as 'putative' marriages.
Again, if the husband had been absent from his wife for a number of years, and she
had a child in his absence, was it a bastard? According to Coke, as long as the father was alive and
in England, the child was his and legitimate (Burn, I, p. 110). Or, what was the position of a woman
impregnated by one man who then proceeded to marry another man and the child was born after the
wedding to the latter? It was apparently believed that the child was legitimate and must be accepted
as his by the man who married the pregnant woman. "
from:http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/TEXTS/BASTARDY.PDF
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Greensleeves, I am sure you have this already, but in case anyone else like myself was not aware of it:
Durham University:
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/
Seem to be very Family History friendly:
"Before your visit, if you have internet access, much preparatory exploration of our collections can be usefully done online (see below). Alternatively, email enquiries can be made to pg.library@durham.ac.uk, or by calling 0191 334 2972, or writing to Special Collections, Palace Green Library, Palace Green, Durham, DH1 3RN."
From a quick scan of that page, it seems likely that you may find useful stuff about St. Hilda's and the Shadforths. Also if, as I suspect they had guild connections as weavers.
Wonder if there is anyone in Durham free to do some sleuthing for you? Is there still a tombstone with Alice and William?
PM
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Sorry I've been absent - internet went down so have spent last 24 hours in limbo....... fortunately we now seem to be restored. Will read back and reply later. Many thanks for your continued input - links and illustrations look good. Hartlepool must have been an impressive-looking place. I used to visit when I was a child, crossing from Middlesbrough on the transporter bridge.
GS
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hi GS
Have just been Googling and found this entry:
JOSEPH PACE married MARY ROWNTREE
on 2nd Feb 1792
at St Hilda's Church Hartlepool
WITNESSES
CUTHBERT COULSON
and ROBERT SHADFORTH).
I'm wondering if that was their 'job' to act as witnesses.
deb
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certainly I've noticed my ancestors who were parish clerks turning up as witnesses at a fair few weddings. One of them looks to have signed as witness at over 200 in a 20 year period. I have another who was parish clerk for 45 years. I'm not planning on counting all those...
::)
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As the clerk assisted the priest with all services he was usually on hand to witness the marriages and it looked good it=f you had a witness who could actually sign his name.
How far back have you found the Shadforths in the area? Often the position of Parish Clerk passed from father to son in Yarton I have 5 generations of Parish Clerks. And in Hampton Poyle the office has passed from brother to brother to brother in law it shows that the family were educated and respected in the community
H.
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Is not technology wonderful:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/podcasts/parish-admin-records.htm
Gives a Podcast no less, on how parishes worked in those days....
I do hope the overseers or someone wrote down the whole affair....
From what I have been reading, it gets curiouser and curiouser....Trying to think of an economic reason - are we certain that Robert had no other children before or after William?
Are these the records?
Ref. No: EP/SS.SH
Catalogue Title: South Shields St. Hilda Parish
Category: Ecclesiastical Parish Records
Size (kB): 266
Type: Catalogue
In the Durham record office. This is a huge catalogue, very difficult to sift through, but it looks like they have the original BMD registers and a lot of minute books etc. Example:
EP/SS.SH 5/5
Church Cess Book, 1760 - 12 April 1784
(1 volume, paper)
Ref No. EP/SS.SH 5/6
Church Cess Book for panns, docks, glass-houses and tenements, Easter 1782 - Easter 1788. Minutes of Vestry Meetings at which churchwardens were elected, 21 April 1783 - 26 March 1788. Offertory Accounts, 5 August 1787 - 7 July 1788. Index at the back of the volume
(1 volume, paper)
Ref No. EP/SS.SH 5/7
Church Cess Book for panns, docks, glass- houses and tenements, Easter 1787 - Easter 1792, and for all lands in the townships of South Shields, Westoe and Harton, Easter 1790 - Easter 1793. Churchwardens' Accounts, 1788 - 1792. Vestry Minutes, 6 April 1790 - 1 April 1794. Includes also lists of names of vestrymen, 1791 (p.116), 1793 (p. 197); details of fees for ringing the church bells (p. 117); list of churchwardens, 1787 - 1798 (p. 164); terms of employment of the church bell-ringers, 20 March 1791 (p. 169). Among those matters discussed at the last Vestry Meeting (p. 197) was the payment of subscriptions towards the parish Fire Engines. For index to volume, see inside front page, 1787 - 1792
Even if the William/Alice/Robert/Margaret affair is not recorded, there might be interesting items to do with the rest of the family...PM
http://www.everychildmattersincountydurham.org/recordoffice/register.nsf/7da41db46fbaf08880256ff80053d88c/ab1502e76b5c0bb780256938004864e1?OpenDocument
Later -OOPS is this the wrong parish - are their two different St. Hilda's? Hartlepool? South Shields brain confusion on my part.
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More to read; http://www.archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticall01jemmgoog#page/n698/mode/2up
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Dunno if this helps, its the same situation, but a different part of the country, with different wording
all the children (four of em)went on with the surname of the Husband of the mother who gave birth.None of the 4 children became Langleys.
Anne KING bp. 22 Jan 1705 The vicar has written in the register 'The third bastard child of Valentine Langley and John King's wife'
One of the children must have died, one called ann born 1703, I wonder how they worded her burial
would they have put Ann King Illegitimate child of John King and Ann his wife
mm
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If the child was illegitimate would have it had implications on the burial?
I know unbaptised people were not permitted to be buried in certain areas
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From all this reading reading round the subject, I am thinking that there must be some economic angle to this. Here are two documents of the time, which show how things are recorded. But it is hard to see what economic threat William posed, and to whom.
http://rootsresearcher.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/amanuensis-monday-apprehension-of-richard-read-re-bastard-child-his-brother-john-paying-the-bastardy-bond-for-him/
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I am inclined to agree with you PM. If it was deliberately written like that to ensure that William could not inherit, though, it would appear that at his baptism he was expected to survive. However, in the event, he was buried five days later.
I still don't know, if William was illegitimate, why the record states "illegitimate son of Robert Shadforth (jnr) and Alice (his wife)." I would have thought the putative father would have been 'named and shamed' to distance the Shadforths even further from the child.
So, was this the Shadforths taking advantage of their positions? Had the marriage between Robert and Alice already broken down, which meant that Robert Jnr and his father, Robert Snr, were anxious to ensure that any child of the second marriage (he was presumably already in a relationship with Mary Whittingham) would inherit.
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Even if William was not Roberts son, in law Robert, being married to Alice at the time of the birth, was the father, so the question of inheritance does not arise.
Here is an example of ecclesiastical law that may be appropiate. ; http://www.archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticall01jemmgoog#page/n20/mode/2up
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" I would have thought the putative father would have been 'named and shamed' to distance the Shadforths even further from the child.
Only by going to the quarter sessions. The baby died. Anyway, the child had a father to support him, he wasn't a burden on the parish.
This you may find interesting; http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/haller.htm
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that latter link makes really shocking reading YT.
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Right, to try to start summarising a few things, I have put together these facts which the Hunt has produced, as a suggestion of who Alice Laws might be:
It is possible that Alice Laws was a widow when she married Robert Shadforth Jnr. At the age of 39, it seems unlikely that she would been single. Is this Alice’s family?
All events at St Hilda’s, Hartlepool:
7 Nov 1722 Baptism - Robert Burrell, son of William Burrell
15 Feb 1746 Robert Burrell married Alice Watt
19 Sep 1748 Baptism - Alice Burrell, daughter of Robert Burrell
10 Jun 1753 - Baptism - William Burrell, son of Robert Burrell
24 Aug 1774 - Marriage of William Laws and Alice Burrel
Witnesses: Robert Shadforth*, Jane Hastings
(*this must have been Robert Shadforth Snr, as Robert Shadforth Jnr was about 16 at the time)
12 Feb 1776 - Burial: William Laws, Taylor (sic)
10 Jan 1785 Marriage of Robert Shadforth (jnr) and Alice Laws
Witnesses: William Burrell, Ann Coulson
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Just a thought - who were the witnesses at Robert Jnr's second speedy marriage? And if Alice had married Laws, were there any children?
PM
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It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt, and this week it's a bit of a tangle.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,506327.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Some good questions there PM, GS hope we’ve manage to help in some way as I can’t access the PR’s I will move on to the next hunt but if you need help just shout
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Thanks for all your help everyone - I seem to have gathered up so much information and it is really interesting going through it all.
PM - regarding your last post, I don't know who the witnesses were to Robert Jnr's second marriage, though I think I will have to find out! It took place in Billingham, so I will have to turn my attentions in that direction.
As far as the possible first marriage for Alice Laws, I have checked through the Durham records and can't find any entries for children of that marriage. I am also wondering, if this was her, what she was doing in the intervening period as William Laws died in 1776 and Alice married Robert Jnr in 1785. I am continuing to search for clues!
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Hi Greensleeves,
It has been very interesting and I learned a lot from it. I do think a direct approach to St. Hilda's might be of use, as you are a descendant of Robert Snr, if I remember correctly, - one of their own! in the absence of Durham folk doing look ups in the key archives, I think you may have to get thee to Durham yourself!
On the Church/Legal side of things, this is very peculiar. The usual law in force at the time makes Robert the legal father, irrespective of biology. I think there may have been a case made against Alice in a one of the local courts either before or after the birth, to allow for William to be acknowledged as illegitimate, if not legally so. Otherwise the thing could be conveniently hushed up by the deaths.
This is why I think records must have been made, and hopefully might have survived. I also wonder if Alice had money herself or the prospect of some, and her family were implicated in ousting baby William? Or the real father, or his family spilled the beans - unlikely, unless there was an infuriated wife about.
Naming the baby William is interesting too, as the Shadforth's seem big on Robert son of Robert.
What I am saying is that the Shadforth's may not be the only players here, or the villians either.
As the more scholarly stuff I posted here says, courts of this period seemed to take the view that marriage made every child of the marriage the legal father responsiblie as for upkeep, and a potential inheritor as well. The wording of the baptism seems to indicate that Robert is still in the father picture in some way.
Perhaps this was to stop a penny of Shadford dosh going indirectly, via a healthy William, to the family of the real Father? The speedy remarriage seems to say there were other agendas around as well. Sometimes, in these situations almighty and unintended muddles result, and things get made public that might not otherwise be known.
Shall be interested to see where the Coulston Burrell stuff takes you. regards, PM
Burrel, Robert, bur. 28 Nov 1784, Age 35yr, [DO] from the internment.org data above. Could he be a younger brother of Alice Burrell?
As Durham has exceptionally good records, no harm in e-mailing the lot - and the Vicar of St. Hilda,s about exactly what has survived. Otherwise, you might be there for weeks!
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Thank you so much, PM, for your considerable help with this. I think I might pluck up my courage and approach the current priest direct (you gave me his address some time ago). As you say, I do have direct links with the church..... and they can only say no!
I have found an indication that Robert Jnr might not be the eldest son - there might have been a Thomas Shadforth who was older. I have no other info about him but I think I will have to winkle him out and see what he has to say for himself.... There have been suggestions in this thread that baby William might have been the child of another Shadforth which would account for the putative father not being named. I have seen elsewhere records stating something like "XY, illegitimate son of Joe Y and Ann W, wife of Fred W". So I think I might amuse myself by treading that path for a short while just to satisfy myself that no stone remains unturned!
As you say, I need to get up to Durham to check all this out. Nice excuse for a trip once the weather improves - and possibly a trip to York and Whitby at the same time, just for the fun of it!
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looking at some of the Church Court Abstracts of the time, this gives you an idea that people took adultery etc very serioulsy:
Reference: DDR/EJ/CCD/3/1787/2
Dates of creation: 1787
Extent: 1 folder, 17 ff. plaintiff: Barnabas Fenwick of Ryton, County Durham, esq
defendant: Frances Aislabie of Ryton, County Durham, wife of Samuel Aislabie
defamation - adultery/fornication
proctor: Robert Burrell - prosecuting
Documents - citations, libel, interrogatories and depositions
this probably means this Robert was a Proctor of the church court - a lot of Birrell's about in the Diocesan files......
Gowland v Wright
Reference: DDR/EJ/CCD/3/1787/3
Dates of creation: 1787-1788
Extent: 1 folder, 14 ff. plaintiff: Margaret Gowland of Bishopwearmouth, County Durham, spinster
defendant: John Wright of Bishopwearmouth, County Durham, yeoman
defamation - whoredom
proctor: George Wood - prosecuting
Documents - citation, libel, interrogatories, depositions, allegation and bill of costs
looking through these very interesting abstracts, looks like Durham Diocese had a view on these matters that had not changed sine the 13th century:
Was unidentified161r-v 14 January 1413
Mandate by the official of the archdeacon of Durham to the parochial chaplain of the collegiate church of Darlington, to declare in that church the sentence of excommunication pronounced by the official of the archidiaconal jurisdiction of the prior of Durham, against Margaret, a resident of the parish of Darlington, lately concubine of John Barbour of the parish of St Margaret, Durham, for her repeated contumacy, and to summon her to appear before the prior's official on Wednesday [1 Feb. 1413] in the church of St Oswald by Durham, to receive correction concerning alleged adultery and fornication.
Dated: Durham
Anyway, lots of interest, no data.....
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Goodness, doesn't that all sound incredibly archaic now - although I know here in Wales there are records of women being whipped for having illegitimate children. So clearly if Alice had fallen from grace, it would certainly have meant she would be given a hard time.
Regarding Thomas Shadforth, the elder brother, he was baptised 9 March 1756, but there are neither marriage nor burial records from him, so perhaps he left the area. In fact, I can find nothing about him whatsoever so I've drawn a blank with him before I even started.
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this was how one of the people on my tree recieved "justice"
see Rough ride for the county's sinners here
http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/leisureold/pasttimes/1261264.rough_ride_for_the_countys_sinners/
It was his innocent wife I felt sorry for
Trees
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"....................................did I gather that disapproval of an unmarried girl who had got herself pregnant was being expressed."
Ooooooooh how I detest that phrase..... what did they think she'd done......... immaculate conception!!!
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if there was a [legal] case it would be in the manorial records
i know TNA have chancery court records back to the 1400's in some cases but i dont think this is a matter for them
on the matter of fornication i read in the paper yesterday there was a Russian lady who was to marry an African man in the UK the supposed purpose was for him to gain stay in the UK, it was brought to court becasue the Border Agency employee (or whoever deals with this sort of stuff) visited the house the day before marriage and found the Russian lady in bed with another man !
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An interesting development - as I have been checking the Durham Records Online, I have been contacted by someone who is researching the COULSON family. I have emailed her to ask if she knows what the link is between the Shadforths and the Coulsons. I await her response with interest.
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Regarding Thomas Shadforth, the elder brother, he was baptised 9 March 1756, is the mother given as Jane Sheppard, or is there no mother given?
It strikes me that it seems Robert Snr. was following the usual pattern of the times, getting a minder for existing children as soon as a wife died, by remarrying speedily. Rober Jnr. also remarried very quickly, and there is time for him and Alice to have had a child a year older than William, even if there is no record. Just musing on family patterns. Just wondering......PM
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I am a bit puzzled by Jane Sheppard and wonder if she was actually a wife of Robert Snr.
Robert Snr's wife, Dorothy Middleton, was born around 1722 and died in 1766. I have been unable to find a marriage for them although in this Hunt Debusa found an IGI extracted marriage:
Robert Shadforth = Doro Middleton
17 May 1752, Easington, Durham
If this was the case, then Dorothy would be the mother of Thomas although before Deb's post I had thought that Jane was the mother of Thomas.
Hey ho, I must go and see if I can find the Easington BTs on Family Search!
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Sorry PM, forgot to add that the PR on Durham Records Online does not give the mother's name. States Thomas Shadforth son of Robert Shadforth baptised 9 March 1756.
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i pretty new on here, but i have access to the parish records for st hildas in hartlepool, as i have not have the need to use them, my lot being from west hartlepool, im not sure of how far they go back, but i can find out for you, do you know if the family had always lived in what we call old hartlepool or the headland. the reason i asked is because all the families on the headland are decended from 6 families only 2 i can remember are the horsleys and the pounders. But there is a very active family history group on the headland and im sure they might be able to help you, they only deal with headlanders unfortunatly im not 1 being born in yorkshire and my husband is from west hatlepool, so they aint too keen on you joining. they are an absolute mine of information. im sure if you google them they may have a web site or contact details. they tend to move around venues quite a lot?? so dont even know where they are based. hope this helps,
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Hi Susan, Thank you for your very kind offer and welcome to the Scavenger Hunts.
I'm sure Greensleeves will be in contact, but she's just moved and doesn't yet have internet connection.
Barbara
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ok, thats fine, i tend to go and search the records a couple of times a month, when i have a few hours to spare, funnily enough my freind lives behind st hildas church, i like these scavenger hunts what a good idea. sue
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Hi Sue
If you need a Scavenger Hunt, just send me a PM and I'll organise it for you ;)