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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Helen Mary on Monday 03 January 11 21:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help and think of a reason why a John Jarvis (from Thurnby Leics) and Elizabeth Duffin (from Oadby, Leics) travelled to Southampton in 1847 and got married (8th March) and had their first son John Job in 1848 in Southampton, died 1852 Billesden leics. Do not know where they were until 1851
By 1851 they were back in Thurnby (Son Willian Duffin Jarvis born) before travelling to Evington, Liecs (Prascilla born 1853) Fillingham Lincs (John born 1854) and Ingham Lincs (Alfred born 1856) before finnally setting in Nottingham.
Any ideas as to why would be appreciated. Thanks
Helen
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Hi Helen Mary,
Welcome to Rootschat!
People moved about for many reasons. Work is one of the main reasons, but maybe they felt they had to go away to get married, perhaps their families did not approve of their match?
Just a thought, did they get married by banns or licence? That might give you a clue, if you can find that out.
Good luck,
Copperbeech5
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat.
What was his occupation, that might give you a clue?
Jan
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Hi Helen
Do you know they travelled to Southampton in 1847 to get married? One of them may very well have been working in the Southampton area and the other travelled in 1847 to marry them there.
John doesn't appear to have been with his parents in Leicestershire on the 1841 census.
Have you obtained the details on the marriage certificate to see what John's occupation was on his marriage. Women also had occupations but at this date they are rarely recorded on their marriages.
Regards
Valda
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Hi,
Thanks for your replies
They married by banns at 'All Saints in the Town' Southampton. John Jarvis is down as a servant of 4 Prospect Place and Elizabeth Duffin has no occupation and is living at 2 Below Bar? both of them signed their names.
I know he is not with his parents in 1841 as they are in Bushby leics (Job and Ann) and by 1851 he is living with his parents and wife and 2 children (John Job and William Duffin) in Thurnby leics and still a servant.
I can understand moving around the country (leics, lincs, notts) as a servant, as my grandmother was in service and she remembered the servant markets!!!! but to go all the way down to Southampton!!! Where did he go between 1848 when John Job was born in Southampton and 1851 when they are living with his parents in Thurnby leics??? I have only found one other child William Duffin Jarvis born 1851 in Thurnby just before the census but I have not found any more children being born between 1848 ans beginning of 1851, so no idea where they went.
So any ideas would be appreciated , I did wonder if they could have gone to America and come back with Southampton being a port??? (may be silly I know)
Any ideas would be appreciated
Thanks
Helen
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Hi
It doesn't look as if they were just passing through Southampton if their first child was born there. Perhaps the people John worked for moved to Southampton and he went with them. Also as Valda said they probably didn't travel there to marry,they may have both been servants and met there.
Have you found him in 1841?
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Hi Groom,
No, I have not found him in 1841 there are 3 possibles all in leicestershire and 1 in Southampton ( born in Warwickshire) and my John Jarvis was supposedly born in Thurnby Leics but I do not have access at present.
Helen
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Do not discount the fact that no occupation is given for the wife. If she too was in service then upon marriage should would have had to leave her job. Many of the larger establishments frowned on their staff marrying as they knew that the wife would have to leave and a replacement found. If the couple were older and were higher up in the household heirarchy, they may have been allowed to continue in their jobs, especially for Head Butler and Housekeepers.
As said before, most women at this time did work, but lots of jobs were those they could do "at home" such as taking in laundry or looking after children of other women who did work.
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Perhaps they were both working for the same household who relocated to Southampton from Leicestershire
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t 2 Below Bar?
Just to help you with your "Below Bar" query...
In the centre of town there is a Bar gate. The road above that (to the north, I am pretty sure) is called Above Bar, the road below it is called Below Bar. It is mainly a shopping area now. I wonder if it always was, or perhaps she was a shopgirl of some sort?????
Otherwise, not much idea of why they moved.
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Southampton Street Directories are online :)
http://www.plimsoll.org/Southampton/streetdirectories/default.asp
They are really useful for placing people between the census. The limitation is that only the householder is listed.
The 1847 James BEATTY was living at 4 Prospect Place, Southampton.
In 1849 Adam AYSCOUGH lived there.
It would be worth checking to see where these two people are in 1851.
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I can't see Adam AYSCOUGH - I may have jumped to conclusions. The entry actually says Adm wich I assumed to be Adam but it could be an abbreviation for Admiral. ??? AYSCOUGH seems to be a Lincolnshire name.
There is a James BEATTY, a civil engineer born Ireland, living in Shirley, Southampton with a couple of servants.
So not a lot of help really :-\
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I tend to think the moves could be related to occupation. 'Servant' can cover a multitude of occupations, such as groom, coachman, valet, gardener etc. and it could be that the occupation of his employer is more relevant than his own.
It would be interesting to know who was living at 4 Prospect Place in 1847, although I don't know how you will find out! If John was just lodging there it won't be relevant, but if he was resident in the house where his employer lived it could be.
As you said, Southampton is a port and whilst I think if they'd gone to America they would be more likely to have gone from say Liverpool, Southampton could be relevant to the occupation of John's employer; maybe he was a merchant of some kind?
Good luck.
Jill
Oops! Above posts and mine all crossed!
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James Beatty, of Inniskillen, was a Railway Civil Engineer.
1842 employed on the Norwich & Lowestoft line.
1853 Nova Scotia.
1854 Grand Crimea Central Railway
died 1856
Not sure what other lines he worked on between 1842 and 1853.
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I don't know if this is a red herring but
1851 HO107/1670/513/16
Ankerwick House. Millbrook, Shirley, Hants. (Shirley is the west part of Southampton I believe)
James Beatty 30 Civil Engineer born Ireland
plus wife and daughter and 3 servants.
In 1841 HO 107/604/book 7 Folio 9 page 10
There is a James Beatty aged 20 born Ireland living at Humberstone Gate, St Margaret, Leicestershire. I can't make out his occupation.
I wonder if John worked for him and went with him to Southampton?
Jan
Added: Looks like the man KGarrad found
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groom, that may be the best lead we're going to find.
There won't be any employment records.
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Thanks.
What a lot of wonderful information you have found.
Bearkat the website of street directories is good and also has photos on it. I noticed that the railway between Southampton and London opened in 1840 and the connection between the Southampton docks and Town Quay opened in 1847 so it may be possible to assume that is why James Beatty was there.
I need to go searching more in the 1841 and 1851 census to find everyone.
Will let you know what happens
Helen
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I now have a copy of the 1841 census of James Beatty, he seems to have a servant!!! aged 20 ? of the county (leics) - this may be a dead end on finding out.
But out of interest if the it was Admiral Ayscough who owned 4 prospect place in 1849 he had entered the Navy and was made a Lt in 1793 and by 1847 R Adm R; 1849 V Adm B; 1851 V Adm W. There is also a painting of him!! (but not on the internet).
If nothing is proved and only supposition it has been very interesting finding other places to research and get data from.
Also Prospect place was situated on the east side of Above Bar Street set back form the road.
I will keep looking for John Jarvis and Elizabeth Duffin in 1841
Helen
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I'm not sure that it does say servant for James Beatty in the 1841, looks too long to me. :-\ :-\
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The servant is the third person listed in the household.
How rude of him not to name his servant. ::)
I wonder if James BEATTY left any money to his servant in his will. James died in 1856.
There is a possible will on National Archives documentsonline (cost £3.50 to download)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b39/
It's unlikely though. :-\
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Is this Elizabeth DUFFIN in 1841
HO107/587/14 folio 7 page 8
living Croxton Kerrial
John DUFFIN age 55yrs Ag lab
Elizabeth age 20yrs
Sarah age 15yrs
William age 14yrs
all born Leics
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I would not think he would be left anything as he was living in Lincolnshire by 1856 Ingham(where my great grandfather Alfred was baptised) but the information is interesting.
Thank you very much for your help
Helen
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Can you work out James's occupation Bearkat? He must have been well off as it looks as if he had 2 servants - does it say MS next to Thomas Ship?
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Is James an Inginneer???
and
Thomas SHIP Ind(ependant)
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BearKat
The Elizabeth Duffin at Croxton Keriel according to a relation of hers never married and so is not mine!!!
So need to find another
Suddenly realized the servant is FEMALE :o so cannot be John ? was it Elizabeth ???
I agree it looks like that James is an Inginneer
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Helen, did you find this picture of Prospect Place on the PortCities website?
http://www.plimsoll.org/resources/SCCLibraries/2251.asp
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Yes I did. :)
Also I found that they were set back from the road with large gardens to the front and were imposing according to Brannon "with their red brick fronts , trees and srubs" in 1850 so when my relatives lived their they must have been something. 8)
John and Elizabeth could not that far a way from each other at different parts of the same road and the church was on the same road as well.
All Saints’ church is of Grecian Ionic architecture, and has been much admired; it contains the monuments of Carteret, the circumnavigator, and of Bryan Edwards, the historian of the West Indies. It was destroyed during the war (WWII)
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To update you all I have just received John Job's birth cert.
He was born at 10 Sussex Terrace All Saints ( 16/8/1848) and when registered by Elizabeth (6/9/1848) she was living in Portland Street, All Saints, Southampton. (but no number given) and the father's occupation is listed as servant.
I had a look at the Southampton post office books , I could not find 10 Sussex terrace in the 1847 but in 1849 it was owned by John Stear - Fireman
As to Portland Street there are too many houses to know which one they worked in but I has a look on google earth and they are seem to a very nice terrace of houses.
I will keep looking to see if I cn find any more info.
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I've just discovered this thread.
James Beatty from Enniskillen was my GGGfather.
He was surveying the Manchester & Derby railway in 1840, the Norwich and Lowestoft lines in 1842. Don't know what he was doing in Leicester in 1841, but his occupation looks to me like ingenieur.
He was chief engineer for the Southampton & Dorchester railway from 1845.
We have a copy of his will at the family home, but I don't remember him leaving anything to any employees. In any case, by the time he was surveying the New Brunswick railway in 1852 his home was in Camden Town, London, where he probably had a different set of domestic servants.
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Thanks WeeHugh for the information.