RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: muso_bob on Monday 03 January 11 00:28 GMT (UK)
-
New to Rootschat and in need of assistance, please.
Grandfather Robert Turnbull - born c1892/3 NBL, father Robert. My dilemma is there are a number of Robert Turnbull's with father Robert so cannot knit my grandfather to the right one. My grandfather of Cramlington married Jessie Winn at St Mary's Church Parish of Morpeth 13 Feb 1922 (age 29?) Profession (unable to decipher - maybe a post in help section to come), father Robert deceased, no occupation. One witness is Lancelot Allgood Turnbull. Jessie (20) is daughter of William Winn a butcher. I have purchased my mother's birth cert 1924 and my grandfather (living at 10 Beacon Farm, Cramlington) is a stone miner in coal mine.
Any assistance or direction greatly appreciated. I am most impressed with what I have seen. Thanks
-
Had hoped that Lancelot Allgood Turnbulls wonderful name might have helped as being a one off birth entry but there are several!! Back to the drawing board................ :( I take it you don't know any definite names of brothers or sisters of your grandad which might help?
-
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Unusual! Then as you say there are several. Thanks for your response. :-\
-
I'm sure one of the regular experts on Northumberland will be along after the bank holiday and they'll get you moving onto lines of enquiry.Sorry I wasn't any help this time.
-
Hi Bob
It's a bit late in the day to be thinking straight - may need to revisit this tomorrow!
Can you recall any names of your mother's aunts and uncles? This might help with census records.
Have you tried looking for deaths/burials of the deceased Robert between 1892 and 1922?
Christine
-
I have 17 Tynemouth Robert Turnbull died between Dec 1892 and Jun 1920 and 4 Morpeth between Jun1894 and Dec 1913. I am hazarding a guess that of all NBLs they are the best candidates. Narrowing them down is my challenge. If only one can see the detail rather than just the index! :'(
-
My mother - Joyce Turnbull - was never forthcoming about her family although she did say she had a sister Elizabeth - I did a search of births on freebmd and found the only Elizabeth Turnbull 1925 mother Wynn, however, there were a number:
Births Mar 1923
Turnbull Winnifred Winn Tynemouth 10b 518
Births Jun 1924
Turnbull Joyce Winn Tynemouth 10b 624
Births Jun 1929
Turnbull Joan Winn Tynemouth 10b 460
Births Sep 1930
Turnbull Robert W Winn Tynemouth 10b 472
Births Mar 1932
Turnbull George S Winn Tynemouth 10b 398
Births Dec 1937
Turnbull Rena Winn Nthmbld.S. 10b 397
Births Mar 1939
Turnbull Derek Winn Newcastle T. 10b 314
These plus Elizabeth Wynn 1925 indicates a large family although Rena and Derek may not be siblings
-
Hi Bob, welcome to the dark side (northumberland family history) ;D
I think you're getting bogged down with all the Robert Turnbulls about.
The known facts from the certs you have is that your mother was born 1924 to Robert and Jessie.
Robert and Jessie married 1922 and Roberts father was also Robert, one of the witnesses being Lancelot Turnbull.
We need to ascertain the relationship between Robert and Lance.
Hopefully a census search can put them together.
Pete
-
Thanks Pete, I believe you are right and I have tried to get Lancelot and Robert together with Robert father or son. I did manage to get 2 certs of Roberts with father Robert - one In sub-district of Byker the other Westgate. Geographically seem to be wrong to novice me. I love the challenge, though.
I also will be trying to locate information on my mother who served in WAAF WWII, don't know service number or where. Though RAF flew her ashes back and scattered at Biggin Hill in garden at Memorial Chapel.
-
Yep it can get expensive :(. If it helps, Cramlington is /was in Tynemouth registration district. The Lance born 1889 looks agood bet to me.
-
1891 census has a Lancelot A Turnbull living in Crow Hall Farm cottages Schedule No 19) Cramlington Head aged 27 with a son Lancelot age 1. There is another family R Brown etc on the same page - Schedule No 15 Beacon Farm). (Coincidentally the property name on my grandfather's marriage certificate. There is also a Lancelot age 77 in the place Schedule No 20 Crow Hall Farm with son George age 35. I see in 1881 census that Lancelot age 67 has sons Lancelot 27 ans George 26. So without other evidence yet I believe that the Lancelot 27 is father of Lancelot 1 in the Schedule 19 1891 census. I hope. By the way the families with Lancelot in them are all farmers. My grandfather in 1922 - a stone miner.
Getting a Lancelot closer to my grandfather Robert I think. Thanks for the push Pete. I am hoping the Lancelot born around 1890 (2 to 3 years older than my grandfather Robert is the witness on my Robert Turnbull 1922 marriage certificate.
-
Well I'm failing to put Lancelot and Robert on the same census page :(
Looking at 1901 the 1 year old Lancelot from 1891 is now 11 and still living at Crow Hall Farm with widowed mother Ann and his siblings, none of which are called Robert (Robson is the closest)
There is also another Lancelot Allgood aged 6 on the same page son of farmer George and his wife Catherine - again, no siblings called Robert.
They could of course be cousins.
Christine
-
Hi c-side - that is what I am looking for now. My Great grandfather being a brother of Lancelot senior born about 1814 ish. One can but hope. May there are a Lancelot and Robert brothers in the 1841 census fingers crossed.
-
Hi all has the Lancelot Allwood Turnbull born Dec 1877 Belford 10b 381 and a Butcher on the 1911 in Cramlington a possible link?
Keyboard86
-
This is just a quick dash thru your Turnbulls starting with
Lancelot Turnbul/Turnbull born/baptised in Clyne, Sutherland Scotland in 1814, son of William and Elizabeth ( nee Robson/Robison)
Source IGI and ScotlandsPeople
Lancelot has several children with an Elizabeth in Northumberland...
Jane b circa 1843, William 1845, John 1846, Mark 1848 Robert 1849,Lancelot Allgood Robson, 1853, George 1855, James 1858.
Lancelot A.R and George were born in Bull Bush ( Bullbush) a community in the "township" of Hollinhill, within the Parish of Rothbury.
Census 1851 @ Ritton, (2423-217-7)
Census 1861 @Branton (3893-79A-18)
Census 1871 @ Fleetham (5178-62-28)
Census 1881 @ Crow Hall Farm, Cramlington ( 5094-78-34)
~~~~~~~~--------------
Census 1891 @ " " (4235-117-3)X 2 families-same page.
Census 1891 West Hartford (4236-163-9) William & second wife.
Matriarch Elizabeth dies 1886, Patriarch Lancelot A dies 1900. Son Archibald A.R dies 1899.
Census 1901 George and family @ Crow Hall (4811-71-1)
Census 1901 Lancelot junior's widow Ann @ Crow Hall (same ref)
Census 1901 William and family @ West Hartford ( 4809- - 24)
Census 1901 Lancelot A (prob. son of William) @ Jesmond (4781-43-34)
~~~~~~~~------------------
When a large family follows the conventions of the English/Scottish Naming Pattern to name their children , the results are similarly named children down thru generations...
i.e. SCotland-born Lancelot's father was William. Lancelot named his first son, William, after his father- rule 1 of naming pattern.
Son William named his first son, Lancelot, after his own father..
Scottish Lancelot's son Lancelot, called his first son, Lancelot, after his father, not himself.
Scottish Lancelot's son George, similarly named his first son, Lancelot after his dad..
And I would guess the Turnbulls carried this on into the C20th, before the convention died out.
Michael
-
Newcastle Courant Friday 3rd March 1882
Article on Newcastle court case: Miner William North of Dudley is accused of criminal assault on 17 yr old Mary Barnes, 17, in the employment of Mr Lancelot Turnbull, farmer, of Plessey Crow Hall, near Cramlington.
Doctor testified that his examination of the alleged victim showed no sign of rape!
Prisoner was discharged.
Michael
-
Hi all has the Lancelot Allwood Turnbull born Dec 1877 Belford 10b 381 and a Butcher on the 1911 in Cramlington a possible link?
Keyboard86
Hi with possible knowledge of later census maybe 190! RG13/4843/14/20, and 1891 RG12/4266/18/7
Keyboard86
-
Wow - my head is swimming - thanks everyone. There is a Lancelot living at the Beacon Farm place in 1911. So that is certainly something to pursue and encouraging. Michael thank you for your info as well so informative. In fact all who have taken the time to respond, thanks. Clearly there is a passion in family history. I enjoy the journey as much as the results.
I was born in Scotland although live in overseas (in UK for 4 months at the moment so tracing tracing). Our grandson carries my last name in his names as the Scottish tradition. His father is from a Scot dairy family. My wife and I have 3 daughters so the line will pull up.
keyboard86 - thanks I did get those census and now revisiting.
Now the homework - I will be in Italy for a week before I can get stuck in again.
-
Check in again when you get back from Italy - we still need to find a Robert ;)
-
With my grandfather being born about 1892/3 I think the Rothbury born 1849 is possibly his father and the Lancelot AR Turnbull also born Rothbury 1853 his brother - therefore Robert my GF's uncle. Hence the witness signature on my Grandfather's marriage certificate being Lancelot Allgood (Robert the father deceased). So to kill off the right Robert before 1922 and to try and confirm Robert 1849 as the father is the challenge. This I am pulling together from Michael's input. So if it is - it is - if it isn't then I have at least elimanes another suspect and am loser to the right one.
I just hope the opportunity eventually comes for me to be able to help others as you all have done. Grazie from Firenze.
-
1861 Census RG9/3893/794page 13 Civil parish-Branton,Reg.dist.Glendale,Sub-reg.Wooler
Lancelot Turnbull 47 b.Scotland occ.Shepherd
Elisabeth 44
Jan e 18
William 16
John 15
Mark 13
Robert 12 b.Screnwood, Northumberland
Lancelot A.R.8 b. Bull Bush, Northumberland
George 6
James 3
1871 Census RG10/5178/62 page 28 Civil Parish Fleetham, Reg dist.Belford
Lancelot Turnbull 57 Shepherd
Elizabeth 53
William 27
Lancelot 17
George 16
James 13
1881 Census RG11/5125/51page26 Civil Parish Embleton, Reg.dist.Alnwicl
Robert Turnbull 30 b. Screnwood occ. steam Ploughman (Ag.Mac)
Ellenor 28
Lancelot 6
Isaac 4
Isabella 2
Robert 11 months b.Belford, Northumberland.
Hope this helps
Patricia
-
Regarding the above:
Robert b.1880 emigrates to Canada in 1923. He is married to Jean, occupation Engine Driver and gives nearest relative as: Lancelot A. Turnbull, Sea Houses, Chathill, Northumberland - so he is obviously not the Robert you are searching for.
Patricia
-
From a transcription of "Baptisms 1840-1856, Rothbury Congregational church" ( Newcastle City Libray)
Baptised 31 Mar 1843 JANE (born 4 Mar) dtr of Lancelot and Elizabeth Turnbull of Lorbottle.
Baptised 14 July 1844 WILLIAM (b.1 July) son of " " of Ellilaw.
Baptised 8 Feb 1848 MARK (b.20 Dec) son of " " of Snitter.
Michael
-
Back on UK soil again. Visited Soc of Gen London yesterday and downloaded a number of 1911 census for Lancelot Turnbull. There are only 9 in total. There are no Roberts included that could be a brother of my grandfather, so the link will be cousin or uncle I feel. I also saw umpteen Robert Turnbull 1911 census - I have many now to analyse and try to create a map. This with the information I have received on this site may just get me somewhere. I will add details as I dissect.
-
I have also traced my mother's siblings and starting to gather them together. Would be amazing if any relatives out there! My grandfather was a coal cutter, coal miner, colliery engine (locomotive) fireman, stone miner in coal mine. These taken from certificates I have that are factual.
-
Welcome back Bob. I'm amazed that there are 9 Lancelot Turnbulls about. Just a thought, and i may be wrong here, but i believe the 1911c was hand-written by the householder. If so you may be able to compare the handwriting with the signature from the marriage cert to id the correct Lance.
-
If the marriage cert was from the GRO office you cannot compare signatures. You would have to look a the parish record if they married there. Or beg (it could take on hands and knees) the appropriate register office to show you the book. ;D
Janis
-
Comparing signatures? What a good idea, thanks Pete for your info.
Here I go making an "ass" out of "u" and "me". I assume that the GRO cert of marriage I have is a copy of the Registrar's "book". A record written by one person it seems as the writing certainly is all by one hand. So I am thinking that the certificate is information supplied by St Mary's Church, Parish of Morpeth in this case to the registrar. would there be a church record written by the individual people involved in existence? If so how does one see this?
-
muso_bob,
Copy certificates obtained from GRO will be copy of a copy of a copy. Certs from the appropriate Register Office will be copy ( handwritten or typed )of original entry in register. So the signatures of the "participants" are copies not facsimiles.
But some copy certs (typically Marriage Certs) from some Register Offices
( Sunderland, those in Co Durham, etc ), are facsimiles of the original register, and so show true signatures.
Michael
-
Thanks Michael, so the one I ordered from GRO online and received by post, which has what looks like a window in the centre of the page where they overlay over a "book" is what I think it is just a ledger entry. Maybe I should contact Northumberland Registry Office and ask if the copy they have shows real signatures by all parties? Then purchase a 'real' one if available.
-
Just had a look through the copy marriage certs i have, and as Michael says some are facsimilies and others are copies.
I read somewhere that the staff at woodhorn pit archives can copy entries from the parish records. I'll ask when i'm there come the weekend.
A fly in the ointment may be that folk had a similar style of handwriting. (ruler across the knuckles for not forming your letters properly) :D
-
I'm not sure that Woodhorn would get the original record book out to photocopy (in fact I'm pretty sure they won't!) but you can print an entry from the microfilm. 50p if you do it yourself or £1 if they do it for you. I have no idea what they would charge if they had to do the search on the microfilm and for postage.
Christine
ADDED be prepared to complete an excessively long copyright form beforehand!
-
I am not sure what the history is on the filling out the copyright form but they did that in Morpeth and carried through to Woodhorn but you can copy merrily away all you want in Tyne and Wear and Durham records offices and just hand over the 50p.
added--and they stamp your paper with a copyright notice too.
Janis
-
Thanks again folks. I leave UK for my home in OZ end of first week in February so starting to run out of time to visit. I would love to get up to NBL - Woodhorn etc. I do have other items on our agenda to do as well though. Pete thanks for your offer, only if you are not compromising your own research.
Of the nine 1911 census I have with a Lancelot noted. Only two are to my mind from an area near to Cramlington.
1: George 56 Farmer of Crow Hall Cramlington with his large family; son Lancelot is 16 farmer's son assisting on the farm.
2: Annie Turnbull 49 widow son 21 Lancelot Allgood 21 an oil cart man. Also a on Robson Turnbull 11. Husband was Lancelot Allgood K Turnbull born c1854 deceased as far as 1901 and 1911 census concerned. found him in 1891 census.
-
I am not sure what the history is on the filling out the copyright form but they did that in Morpeth but you can copy merrily away all you want in Tyne and Wear and Durham records offices.
Janis
Don't get me started on that one :-X I don't recall having to fill out forms at Durham RO either
Christine
-
Just because you're heading back to Oz, Bob, doesn't mean you can't ask for a look up at Woodhorn every now and then.
Those of us who go regularly don't mind at all - sometimes it's a welcome relief from awkward ancestors :D
Christine
-
Hi, managed to obtain a copy of the marriage cert today, having trouble uploading to this site tho
-
Thanks Pete, that is marvellous. Wow, what a difference to the writing on my GRO certificate. This has led me to another question that may have been asked elsewhere.
When one wishes to purchase a certificate is it better to obtain from the County Record Office? Do they do this sort of thing?
-
Until a few years ago the only place I know of that gave you an actual copy (as in photocopy) of a marriage on to certifcate paper was Sunderland. I don't know if other record offices are doing that now or not. Sunderland only did marriages and not birth reigstrations. Most record offices write the certificates out themselves and you don't get the original handwriting.
You could write the record office and pay the fee and they will copy (photocopy) the marriage if it was in a church and mail it to you. If you knew the place and date--would cost less than I certificate I believe.
Janis
-
Forgot to say that Roberts occupation on his marriage cert was "coalcutter"
The other witness at the wedding was a Jane Gill. According to freebmd there was a Jane Gill born Morpeth 1901 then i caught my eye on a Jane Turnbull Gill born Tynemouth 1898. May be worth looking up the 1901c for her parents.
Pete
-
Thanks again, Pete. I eventually summised coalcutter was the occ. Jane Gill confirms something as well now. I had originally thought from GRO cert that the witness was Jane Hill - Jane Hill is the maiden name of Jessie's mother. Jane Hill married William Wallace Winn occ butcher. So here was I thinking why Hill on her daughter's marriage certificate - divorced maybe. But no thanks to your note Gill. I will look further into the other information you provided.
-
Jane Turnbull Gill
Born Tynemouth 1898 AMJ 10b 242
Died Tynemouth 1898 JAS 10b 172 Age 0
So, Jane Gill Morpeth (county Durham?? Morpeth in Durham not NBL??)
JAM 10b 414 - maybe a better option. Haven't found a Jane Gill in 1911 census yet. Only 10 so name change is not a consideration. I suspect she will may be a childhood friend of Jessie, Jessie born Hepscott lived in Coal Burn 1901 and 1911 census.
-
Pity about that Jane dying. i thought that may have been a good lead. Morpeth is deffo northumberland. A registration district as well as a town
-
I have now journeyed to Northumberland just back this evening. Visited St Mary the Virgin Parish Church in Morpeth (means "murder path"), very nice and peaceful, however, closed. Over to the Morpeth Registrar Office and a young lady there searched the Cramlington Parish records (originals) - to no avail. No Robert the son of Robert born in 1892/93. Lindsey called and she checked Bedlington as well. They all confirmed no result, also Hexham a no. Even checked with Chevington - no 1 only father William.
Visited the Morpeth Parish office Wednesday and a lovely lady gave me a double sided A4 information sheet on St Mary church, which I appreciate, over to Cramlington for a quick look around St Nicholas church before going to Woodhorn Archives. I am impressed! The staff were most accommodating and listened to my plight and put me onto the Cramlington Parish Records that go well into the c20 - found my mother's and her sister Elizabeth's christening at St Nicholas, not my grandfather's - in fact hardly any Turnbulls. Did find Robert Turnbull (59) burial record dying in infirmary in Newcastle "late of Cramlington" in May1897. Remembering on my grandfather's marriage cert his father Robert is deceased. So if - a big if he bore a son when he was 54 or so. Can happen, then maybe he is the great grandfather. Do I hunt him down and see if he was from somewhere else? Onward and forward I hope.
-
Doesn't help with your search for Robert, but I'm busy reading a book about Bonnie Prince Charlie, and Sir Lancelot Allgood get a few mentions. He was a rich landowner, lived at Nunwick Hall, Simonburn. Big supporter of King George, rallied the Northumberland Militia against the Scots etc. Gained a lot of favours for supporting King George after Culloden. Later knighted and served as MP for Northumberland. Maybe he's the root of all the Lancelot Allgood Turnbulls.
Alan.
-
Hi Alan, thanks for that tidbit. I will have a serious look at that.
"From little things big things grow"! Your bridge looks like a bridge near my home in Oz.
-
m-bob,
Let me be pedantic for a moment.
You said you were in the "Morpeth Registrar Office". I think you were in the Northumberland Central Register Office that happens to be situated in the town of Morpeth.
There used to be a Registration District called Morpeth which was situated in the town of Morpeth. Title changed to Northumberland Central in 1937.
The RD used to cover a wide area including Morpeth town, and Bedlington and Ashington. And in fact there were sub-district offices in Ashington and Bedlington, to save shoe leather, as well as the main office in Morpeth town.
As Pete says Morpeth was/is Northumberland. Some sections of this message board as well as other sources refer to Morpeth as been in County Durham. But the RD of Morpeth included the Parish, Township and Town of Bedlington. Up to 1844 Bedlington Parish, referred to as Bedlingtonshire, was one of three "enclaves" lying within the bounds of Northumberland county, that " belonged" to County Durham.
Michael
-
Hello Michael, I stand corrected. I do understand wording can be confusing. It took some time for me to get a grip and still need to do more - on the various 'regions'. For instance Tynemouth to me would mean the mouth of the Tyne River in Newcastle, however, I understand it is/was a very large rural area.
The office I went to in Morpeth was in Newgate Street where people go to fill informs to marry etc. I just wandered in there not sure of what to expect and was greeted most cordially and assisted greatly. Woodhorn did explain Morpeth being in the past in Durham etc. Anyway I am enjoying the challenge and this forum is amazing.
Cheers, Robert
-
Robert,
The town of Tynemouth was/is a small town at the mouth of the town. The Township of Tynemouth covered an area a litte larger than the town of Tynemouth. The Parish of Tynemouth covered a wider area including North Shields, Whitley, Cullercoats, etc. The Registration District of Tynemouth from 1837 covered the six parishes of Tynemouth, Wallsend, Longbenton, Earsdon, Horton and Cramlington. The Urban Sanitary District of Tynemouth covered--- stop me, please !
So references to "places" of past times, would benefit from a qualification like town, parish etc, that they perhaps don't need today.
Trivia Angle. I went to King Edward VI grammar school in Morpeth (town). Our sister school was Morpeth Grammar School for Girls, which occupied the site now occupied by the Register Office.
Michael
-
Thank you for your explanation of terms and geography, Michael, it makes it easier to understand and will assist in plotting better.
I have just received Woodhorn's newish digital scan of the original parish record book entry for 4 items. My mother's christening/birth - her sister's christening/birth - my grandparent's 1922 marriage church record and my great grand parent's marriage church record. Very good quality and well worth the £4.25 each.
I also have now found a Robert Turnbull son of Robert Turnbull (wife Emma) 0f 23 Ridley St Cramlington 1911 census both in the colliery as coal miner and coal truck driver. RT snr born Newc and RT jnr South Shields Durham. RT snr moved from being a Railway Guard to Coal Mine Hewer. So now to try and confirm. The birth dates shown are calculations from provided ages so I am disregarding those as exact 1894 (1901 census) and 1895 (1911 census). I will now need to locate a Vol and page entry. Good fun!
-
Robert Turnbull, father Robert mother Emma b.South Shields 1894 1901 census RG13/4730/109.
If this is your family there is a tree on A* going back a few generations.
Patricia
-
Patricia, thank you for that. I have now looked at both public trees and the one with sources may be closer. John Turnbull married to Mary Ann Humble is conflicting with my rough notes of John Turnbull married to Mary Ann Davidson. So some work in that area to try and tie Robert b 1894 down. I have looked at FindMyPast census for 1891, 1901 and 1911 - there Robt snr is in Durham in Percy Street Westoe SShields '91 and Bligh Street SShields '01, in Cramlington '11.
Robert
-
Just wondering if everyone managed to sort out their Turnbulls from this thread. I have been researching Turnbulls of various villages around present A697 as the sister of my 2x grt grandfather married into this line. I was researching another line for a friend and discovered a link through marriage of her relative with the Turnbulls who moved to Crow Hall, Cramlington. Next I found links from them with 2 people I know in my village . It goes on and on.
I have quite a lot of info re the early Turnbulls who went from Roxburghshire in the early 1800's as shepherds to Caithness, Sutherland, Ross and Cromarty. They returned to North Northumberland before 1841. The name Lancelot Allgood is a recurrent name in this line and probably signifies one of them much earlier worked on his estate at Nunwick. The name is still continuing in present generations.
-
Dear Belfordian,
Thank you for your post. I appreciate your input and I have looked at Nunwick - seems to be around Hexham - one of the places I have wondered about. Lancelot Allgood T? I have tried to fit him at Crow Hall Farm - there is a George (farmer who had a L A son; however could not see a Robert around at all. Thank for this renewed interest. You have woken me from a limbo period. Robert
-
Goodness, this query is certainly long-running! I was curious re your Robert Turnbull enquiry as I have an Eliza Redpath who married a Robson Turnbull. I discovered that the names Lancelot Allgood kept cropping up in his line certainly from at least 1814 to present day. And it turns out Lancelot Allgood was MP for Hexham and the family owned Nunwick Hall. My lines were shepherds and farmworker's so they probably took the names from their employer if they worked on his estate. Like you I have used the Lancelot Allgood names to track other people as it is relatively unusual.
There were certainly men of that name who lived at Crow hall over the years. In my Turnbull research I discovered I am connected through Eliza Redpath,s marriage to Robson Turnbull to 3 people I know in my village which is at the other end of the county from Cramlington area!! Some of the Turnbulls moved up to Belford and so the line spreads!
Here are a few possibilities for you to consider.....
1. Did you send for Robert,s birth cert.? Morpeth one seems most likely. Does it name his father? Of course no one checked the info given at registration so you could invent something and it would rarely be challenged. So a father,s name could be incorrect. Vicars sometimes put the wrong forename. I found a Robert born 1882 on 1901 census at Seghill living with his grandmother MRgRet Turnbull born 1831.
2. Or could be the one at Seaton Deleval in 1911 born at Annitsford married to Hannah Elizabeth ? A first wife? Jessie might have been his second wife? But I think you said he was described as bachelor on the marriage cert.
I will reread your info and keep thinking.
The Turnbulls around Cramlington stem from lancelot Turnbull born 1814 in Sutherland where his parents had gone from NTHBLD. His father William was a shepherd who married Helen or Eleanor Robson from Elsdon. Most of their children were born in the far north of Scotland. The family was back in Northumberland by 1841. If Lancelot Allgood Turnbull witnessed Robert,s marriage I am pretty sure they are related and so Robert and yourself must be descended from William the shepherd. That means you are connected (very distantly) to me!!
Here are some options for you to explore
-
Hello Belfordian,
Thank you so much once again for your input.
Regarding a Birth Certificate for Robert (Morpeth) - my dilemma is "when was he born"????
Marriage certificate to Jessie Winn state Robert 29 years old.
However, Robert Turnbull death March 1932 - states he was 50 years old!! So eas he 39 when he married, 10 years previously?? The numbers do not fit. If only ....................
I am very interested to see your results of thye Scotland, NBL and Crow Hall links. I have looked at these. When in the UK (I live in Australia) I have visited the address where my grandfather Robert died, March 1932. My mother played around there when 7/8 years old. Not far from Crow Hall Farm. My mother was born at Beacon Farm - I believe in Mining Company cottages. This is literally across the road from the Crow Hall Farm.
I do ythank you for your interest.
You are quite right - this is a long journey, indeed. If only I could isolate Robt's birth. On the maternal side I have delved quite deeply into the Winn, Hill, Robson families.
Robert
-
I realise the discrepancy with ages but I would go by the age at death. A vicar or registrar could easily mishear 20 as 30 or even simply make a mistake. Have you seen the original marriage cert? Could it be 30? Sometimes figures are difficult to decipher. Combined with other evidence such as relatives saying that he was much older than his wife I would send for the birth cert from Morpeth for 1882. What is £9.50 if there is a chance of making a discovery???? I assume you have not found a baptism?
My sister in law was brought up on a smallholding on Beacon Lane, by the way.
If you do send for it, please let me know the result! I have always understood that the certificates at GRO are photocopies of original. Ones from registrars office are typed or handcopied out and often the Registrar mistakenly transcribes certain words incorrectly. Go for GRO!
-
Hello again, I do have a number of Rbt T birth certs - not mine as I have followed them through with the parents to a dead end. I haven't purchased 10b 336 Dec Q 1882, however. So will get onto that.
The marriage of Rbt & Jessie: I bought the 922 marriage from GRO and I also paid £4.50 for a scan of the actual Church Marriage cert from Woodhorn as another lind Rootschatter had been into Woodhorn and sent me a snippet with the actual signatures of Robert, Jessie and Lancelot. Result: The GRO was a handwritten by a cleerk version. All hand-writing was by the same person. The GRO did not include all details that are on the Church one. Jessie's address was quite different. A decision by the GRO person possibly. I cannot attach here for copyright reasons and can't attach to a PM to show you what I mean. The ages on both are definitely Robt 29 - Jessie 20. No doubt. Interesting your observation about a possible second marriage! I have wondered that as well given the anomalies of age between marriage and death.
Thanks Robert
-
It has been a long time, however, I do have a new possibility for my grandfather Robert Turnbull.
Knowing the Morpeth Robert fif not have Robert as father: leaving the Hexham 1882 birth Robert as the only one left I had not seen parents names; I purchased the Hexham certificate-
Robert Turnbull born 25 June 1882 Low Prudhoe, Prudhoe Castle, father Robert coal-miner and mother Maria formerly Downs. I am excited, but, now the work to confirm he is my grandfather.
Already looked at census and Robt senior born about 1848 and Maria ABOUT 1851. Maybe someone out there has researched the Downs and has Turnbull on their tree? The new journey begins.
-
Robert,
How does this Roberts signature in 1911 census (living with his mother, brother and sister in Chester le Street, he signed the census declaration), compare with the original marriage cert and birth certs that you have copies of.
Alan.
-
Hi all you turnbull researchers, can I join in too please.
I am looking for William Turnbull born abt ond 1870 in Cramlington, (according to the 1871 census) his father was Cuthbert and mother Mary. Oh and siblings of John Arthur b1866 and Ann Margaret b1869.
Now I have picked up the family on the 1881 census which shows Mary is now a Widow with 3 children.
To continue on with William in 1907 he married Henrietta Wood and they had a son Cuthbert in1907 and Alice in 1908. In 1910 (Jan) they emigrated to USA and indeed are listed on the 1910 census living in Plymouth. Sadly in Oct of 1910 Henrietta was badly burned and died, the two children were taken in by 'Aunts' and William ? ? ? we don't know what happened to him, a lot of people have said he returned to England but I have no proof and would welcome any additional information you may have.
I have also tried to trace Williams parents and siblings, I believe his parents to be Cuthbert born 12th may 1839 in Chollerton and Mary Arthur born abt 1842 in Ridsdale
Williams Sibling Ann Margaret I think married William Temple and John Arthur married Isabel Henderson.
But can find more information on what happened to William after 1910 - Help
-
Hello Alan,
I did compare just before I came on line now. disappointingly, in my humble opinion too different to be the same person. R same - R different capital T not so flamboyant.
So looking like I have missed out - again. I have looked at many many 1911 signatures and none have been close as this is not. So my excitement has been extinguished, somewhat.
Here they are to compare.
Robert
-
Hi Sticky 02, I have not encountered any of the names you are seeking in my quest. I have now met and corresponded with cousins of mine and Uncle and Aunt. Our lines include Turnbull, Winn, Robson and Giroy all in Northumberland. None of these migrated at all. My mother left UK for Australia with me after the end of WWII. Good luck.
-
Just posting link to related thread to save "double trouble"
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=724714.0
Annie