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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: scotty151 on Thursday 30 December 10 12:41 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me find the following addresses in the 1881 census and tell me who was living there?
3 Prudhoe Place, Newcastle
31 Prudhoe Street, Newcastle
I have a marriage certificate dated 9th April 1881 (six days after the census) which gives the following details.
William RENDER - 26, Bachelor, Engine Fitter of 3 Prudhoe Place, Newcastle. Father - Thomas Render, Slater.
Margaret Ann SCOTT - age 24, Spinster of 31 Prudhoe Street. Father - Robert Scott, Boiler Builder.
Witnesses - Robert Scott & Annie Scott.
I need to find out if this Margaret Ann SCOTT is the one I am looking for.
The information I have is Margaret Ann SCOTT was born c.1857 in Newcastle, the daughter of William James SCOTT. Her father died in 1870 and his widow (2nd wife - not Margaret's mother) then married William Scott's brother, Robert SCOTT. Very complicated family!!
The above marriage could be the one I am looking for if Margaret named her step-father, Robert Scott as her father, rather than his brother William James Scott who was her actual father.
Robert's occupation of Boilersmith or Boiler Builder fits perfectly.
What puzzles me is that on the marriage certificate, Margaret's place of residence is recorded as 31 Prudhoe Street whereas I have found my Margaret (a few days earlier) living with her (step)father Robert Scott, Boilersmith, at 106 Corbridge Street, Byker, Newcastle upon Tyne. RG11/5068, Folio 40, page 22.
I am hoping it may help to find who was living at the Prudhoe Street/Prudhoe place addresses in 1881. If a Margaret Scott was there then I am off track and have the wrong marriage.
However, a search on A*** using these names does not find this address. Does anyone know in which district it would be? I have found Prudhoe Street on a modern map. Off Percy Street, near St. James Park.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Regards,
Kevin Scott
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Hi
1881 at 3 Prudhoe Place (RG11 5059 30 52)
James Johnson, daughter Mary E. and mother-in-law Mary Dobson
1881 at 31 Prudhoe Street (RG11 5059 11 13 and 14)
Seven members of a Sayers family, Isabella Atwell and her granddaughter Isabella Robinson, and five members of a Sessford family
John
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Can anyone help me find the following addresses in the 1881 census and tell me who was living there?
3 Prudhoe Place, Newcastle
31 Prudhoe Street, Newcastle
However, a search on A*** using these names does not find this address. Does anyone know in which district it would be? I have found Prudhoe Street on a modern map. Off Percy Street, near St. James Park.
Just to point out that you can search the 1881 Census on Ancestry by the address, and not just the names.
Stan
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Thank you John for finding these addresses for me. It's a bit of a puzzle to me that neither William Render or Margaret Ann Scott are at these addresses on census night, but give them as their place of residence at their marriage just a few days later. Also, I can see no connection whatsoever to the families shown at these addresses.
At least I know there wasn't yet another Margaret Ann Scott!
I cannot find William Render at all on the 1881 census. I have found his parents and he is not at home with them.
Stan, Thanks for the advice, however I cant see how to do this. I have tried putting "Prudhoe Street, Newcastle upon Tyne" into the "lived in" box, but the results just show many torn census pages where the names are missing.
Obviously doing something wrong here!
Kevin
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Kevin,
I think you must have "customised" your searching on censuses to the " New Search" as opposed to the "Old Search"
Similarly the "New Search" format does not allow searching by entry of Piece/Folio/Page numbers, as the "Old Search" did !
Michael
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Stan, Thanks for the advice, however I cant see how to do this. I have tried putting "Prudhoe Street, Newcastle upon Tyne" into the "lived in" box, but the results just show many torn census pages where the names are missing.
Obviously doing something wrong here!
Kevin
You get this screen, in "Old Search"
Stan
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You will see the link for "Old Search" in the top right of the screen,
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,497611.msg3544215.html#msg3544215
and http://www.rootschat.com/links/08nt/
Stan
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Many thanks Michael & Stan,
I had forgotten about the "old search" as it is so long since I had used it. Thanks for reminding me. So much easier to use!!
Kevin
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I tried looking for William Render in 1881.
It's VERY much a long shot but there's a William 'Pender' (RG11; Piece: 3607; Folio: 104)
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle On Tyne, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: "S S Arago"
Occupation: Third Engineer
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Howard Street
ED, institution, or vessel: Nina
This William Pender doesn't appear to exist in 1861, 1871 nor in 1891. Could he have jumped ship which is why the marriage addresses appear to be dodgy? I suppose a third engineer could be a fitter as well.
Unfortunately the image does say Pender.
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Thank you Tracy for taking the time to search. In the absence of any other information, William Pender is certainly a possibility.
I wonder however, as he was a Third Engineer on a ship in Liverpool on the 3rd April 1881, would he have been given leave to go to Newcastle to get married on 9th April 1881? Would he have had to waited until the ship returned to Tyneside? Perhaps he caught the train? I wonder if I will ever know!! :-\
I really appreciate your input into my search.
Kevin
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Kevin,
In which church did William and Margaret marry ?
You write that Margaret's father, William James Scott died in 1870 and his widow, his second wife, "not Margaret's mother", married his brother Robert Scott. On the 1881 census Robert and Isabella are married with Margaret in their household. If Isabella, who was wife with William J Scott on 1861 census
( 3814-11-16), with 4 yr old Margaret in their h/h, is not Margaret's mother, who was ?
Although the Margaret spouse at the 1881 marriage named Robert Scott as her dad, the Margaret Render (nee Scott) on the censuses named her ?first son Thomas James- after her natural father ?
This is just a trivia bit- hopefully not to mislead !. In my memory of not too long ago, there was a similar puzzle about a couple marrying, naming their address/es like Prudhoe Place/Street, but belonging elsewhere ?
Michael
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Hello Michael,
William Render & Margaret Ann Scott married at Newcastle upon Tyne Register Office on 9th April 1881. I did notice that they named their first born William James Render, possibly after Margaret's true father.
This is quite a complicated family, but I will try my best to explain them!
William James Scott (born c.1834, Norham NBL) & Robert Scott (born c.1836, Scremerston NBL) were the sons of James Scott & Eleanor Wilson (married 4 June 1820, Chillingham NBL).
At the time of the 1851 census both brothers were with their parents at Bells Hill, Adderstone NBL, but by 1861 the family had moved south to Newcastle upon Tyne.
William James Scott married bet 1851-1855, but I cannot trace this marriage. There were two children - Ellenor c.1855 & Margaret Ann c.1857 (the subject of my query).
His first wife died and on 9 April 1860, William James Scott (widower) married Isabel Turpin at St. John's, Newcastle. Hence by the 1861 census , William J. Scott was married, but the two children were from his first wife.
William James Scott died June Qtr 1870 in Newcastle.
Robert Scott married Ann Kennedy at Newcastle Register Office on 18 Feb 1856. They had seven children, before Ann died on 26 Dec 1870 in Gateshead.
At the 1871 census, Isabella Scott (widow of William) was living at 89 Blandford Street, Newcastle with Margaret, 12 (daughter of William Scott& ?)
Ann Scott, 2, (her own daughter with William Scott)
plus five nephews & nieces - the children of Robert Scott & Ann Kennedy.
On 28 Dec 1874 at Newcastle Register Office, Isabella Scott (widow of William James Scott) married her brother-in-law, Robert Scott (widower).
So by the 1881 census it is a very mixed family who were living at 106 Corbridge Street, Byker.
Margaret A. Scott, 24, is recorded as daughter of Robert & Isabella, when in fact she was actually daughter of neither! She then names Robert Scott as her father at her marriage to William Render, six days after the census was taken. Which brings me back to my original query as to why she gives her address as 31 Prudhoe Street at the marriage?
Sorry for such a long winded reply, but I hope you now have a better picture of this complicated family.
Regards,
Kevin
PS. Robert Scott was my gg grandfather.
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Couiold it be that you had to have a city of Newcastle address in order to marry at Newcastle Registry Office?
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Good thinking Mr Tibbs, but Byker also lay within the jurisdiction of Newcastle Registration District. Michael
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Thanks Michael. Next thought: my husband has an ancestor who lived in the workhouse as a child. When she started work her address was Prudhoe Street. Could there have been hostels there and the intending to marry couple stayed there overnight before their marriage in order to avoid travelling on the day they married - and a hostel would be cheaper than a hotel? :D
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William Render was living at 3 Prudhoe Place in 1871 census. Maybe Margaret had lived at 31 Prudhoe St. earlier and considered it "home". Not there in 1871.
Alan.
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My mistake. He's living at 3 Porters Yard in 1871. The previous house is 14 Porters Yard, the next house is 2 Prudhoe Place, then 4 Prudhoe Place.
His parents are still living at 3 Porters Yard in 1881.
Alan.
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Thank you all for your help in finding an answer to my query.
Another SCOTT researcher has come up with a connection between Margaret Ann Scott & 31 Prudhoe Street, Newcastle.
Joseph Sessford and family were living at this address in 1881 (just days before Margaret Ann's marriage to William Render). Joseph Sessford was a witness at the second marriage of Margaret's father, William James Scott to Isabel Turpin in 1860.
Perhaps there is some family connection, yet undiscovered, to the Sessfords or they may just have been family friends with whom Margaret stayed on occasions.
We may never know....
Kevin
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Scotty
I have loads of info on The Render family William Render and Margaret ANN Scot William died 1900 and Margaret 1943 If you want any more info get back to me
Audrey
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Hi Audrey,
Thanks for your message and YES I would love to know more about William Render and Margaret Ann Scott!
I have found William's death entry in Sept Qtr 1900, but have no details for Margaret's death. I have found four children -
William James Render 1882 (married Mary Jane Rutter 1902)
Thomas Render 1884
Isabella Scott Render 1886 (married Andrew James Corbett 1908)
Margaret Ann Render 1894
Do you know the name of Margaret Scott's mother? (ie the first wife of William James Scott).
It always seems strange to me asking about Margaret Scott as that is my wife's name!!
I will PM you my email address
Best wishes,
Kevin Scott
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I have ancestors living at Prudhoe Place on the 1861 census. Looking at that area, I found it was highly crowded insanitary "close" just off Percy Street which borders the Haymarket. That was where all the market traders gathered and there were many pubs her and there. So I imagine much coming and going with lodging houses for any travellers or traders.
So maybe that address was just one of convenience for the marriage.
I have g grandparents who both gave a Newcastle address for their marriage in Newcastle, when both were definitely living at Crawcrook in Co Durham. She was about ready to give birth, hence the deception!
Gen in NBL England
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Thanks Gen List Lass,
I think you are right and that the Prudhoe street address on the marriage certificate was an address of convenience. There were three families recorded at that address in the 1881 census. What originally puzzled me was that Margaret Ann Scott was listed with her parents in Corbridge Street, Byker on census night and then 6 days later at her marriage gave her address as 31 Prudhoe Street.
I was not sure if I had the correct Margaret, but now I am certain she is the one.
One of the men recorded at 31 Prudhoe Street in 1881 was a witness at a family marriage, so there must have been a connection between Margaret Ann Scott and that address.
Kevin
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a bit of info on William Render from my records
William died 12/8/1900 address 183 Parker Street Byker
William James Render [son]born 1/3/1882 died 1943 age 86 address 215 Parker Street byker .still looking for any info on Margaret Scott not sure but I think her mother was Isabelle ?
Audrey