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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: maidmarianoops on Thursday 30 December 10 00:24 GMT (UK)
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over the past week i have gone through a lot of books and photos to try to help with uniform recognitions.
I finished up in tears at the fate of deserters,who were killed by their own comrades,for being afraid.
Sorry
sylvia
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hello sylvia
never say sorry for emotions of this kind it was a despicable way to treat men who in the most part were completely shattered by the constant shelling and conditions that they had to endure this is why so many never spoke of there time there .
how easy it was for those in command to sit well back from the front line and tell others to throw there lives away for what in a lot of cases was for no gain what so ever , i n my very humble opinion anyone who was there deserves the utmost highest respect from all of us and the younger generations should be taught in school of the bravery of all those who served and died ancient history is just that and should now be put to one side but the 2 world wars are modern history in my mind and should be remembered .
the antics of the past weeks with the student protests goes to prove just how little knowledge most youngsters have of the sacrifice made by the common man for his fellows a lost generation of men and boys who thought they were doing an honourably thing for king and country , as the saying goes LIONS LED BY DONKEYS what must it be like to be told to form up as a firing squad with one man out of the six firing a blank cartridge so no one of them knew who it was that fired the blank was that supposed to make them feel better .
i too am sorry but only for my putting down the thoughts i,ve had for a very long time and then inflicting them on all who read this my apologise to you all
trevor
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Hi
The deserters who were executed in the First World War were pardoned in 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/aug/17/military.immigrationpolicy
http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-shotatdawn.html
http://www.economist.com/node/7804031
Regards
Valda
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t mo, don't apologise it was an awful situation for young boys and men to be in, my grandfather served in WW1 he only survived because he was badly injured by shrapnel and shipped home. He called one particular General a butcher.
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I believe though he never directly confirmed it that my uncle, Sergeant in the RHA WW1, and regular soldier commanded a firing squad towards the end of the war. It was obliquely mentioned when he talked of prisoners who had been condemned being pardoned or amnestied at the end of the war.
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May I commend x3 books to you all
Mud Blood And Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan
Forgotten Victory by Gary Sheffield
Blindfold And Alone by Hughes-Wilson and Corns
I'm afraid that there is a lot of myths around re WW1, and an awful lot of them perpetrated by things such as "Oh What A Lovely War" and several badly written and researched books.
All the shot at dawns were not deserters over 20 of them were convicted murderers, and received the punishment set by the civilian courts at the time.
And of all the allied armies, we executed the least apart from the Americans, and only a tiny percentage of those condemned were ever executed.
Psychiatry was in its infancy, and many, many were given psychiatric help...Pse see "Forgotten Lunatics Of The Great War" by Peter Barham
Trevor, perhaps you really need to read the above books...Officers did not sit well back from the front line....The amount of Generals KIA will surprise you!!
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May I commend x3 books to you all
Mud Blood And Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan
Forgotten Victory by Gary Sheffield
Blindfold And Alone by Hughes-Wilson and Corns
I'm afraid that there is a lot of myths around re WW1, and an awful lot of them perpetrated by things such as "Oh What A Lovely War" and several badly written and researched books.
All the shot at dawns were not deserters over 20 of them were convicted murderers, and received the punishment set by the civilian courts at the time.
And of all the allied armies, we executed the least apart from the Americans, and only a tiny percentage of those condemned were ever executed.
Psychiatry was in its infancy, and many, many were given psychiatric help...Pse see "Forgotten Lunatics Of The Great War" by Peter Barham
Trevor, perhaps you really need to read the above books...Officers did not sit well back from the front line....The amount of Generals KIA will surprise you!!
A shame Douglas Haig wasn't one of them.
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Why?
He was the man who lead the army to victory in 1918, and was the one who tried to stop the Somme, and was ordered to attack by the politicians who pandered to the French demands.
He also advocated the tank and "modern" warfare such as section attacks and all arms fighting
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Noted historians differ on the subject.......... Haig was old fashioned in his belief how battles should be fought.
So no blame lies at his feet........ it's the politicians or the French?
To glorify the slaughter and indeed glorify Haig's stubborness is naive.
It's so easy to fight battles from a tent and send 100's of thosands of men to their death due to the belief "one is right."
In fact the politicians didn't want another Somme.
The British and Allies were always going to win once the USA entered the war.
Out of interest ...how many Generals were killed?
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hello scrimnet
i was just trying to add this reply to your post when irishresearcher beat me to it and mine has been lost in the ether somewhere so believe me when i reiterate what irishresearcher says it,s a pity haig wasn,t one of them he and his cronies were who i was alluding to in my comments regarding officers sitting well back from the front and i was aware that a lot of officers were killed leading there men from the front as they went over the top .
and i thank you for the list of books which i will source if pos most of my reading matter on ww1 has been the likes of harry patches book and another by richard van emden called the great war through veterans eyes this i,m sure you know is taken from diaries kept by the soldiers and officers ( and a comment must be made that express orders were given that no man was to keep a diary or take photographs ) why is that if not to supress the horrors that they faced , i also realise that if a man were captured or killed that if info that was useful to the enemy was written down it would or could cause a lot of damage so i do try to see both sides of a coin in this back to the emden book other extracts are from the imp war museum so as far as i,m concerned this is a work of fact not something cobbled together just to make money .
this is my own humble opinion and i stand or fall by it ww1 was a last attempt by useless senior commanders for a bit of glory before they shuffled off this mortal coil and they failed abysmally and took virtually a whole generation of fine men with them i,ll stop now as i could rant on for a lot longer , as i said in my other post i apologise to one and all for this but it,s what i feel , i promise i will make no further comment on this post .
happy new year to one and all and may we never forget those men on both sides lead by donkeys
i,ve just seen the updates on this and i for one am solidly behind irishresearcher for what it,s worth
trevor
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I googled it.......78
3 drowned
12 (at least) by sniper
Quite a number by shell fire
22 small arms fire
1 accidentally poisoned
1 cholera
By the way I take your point on tanks.......... though he did start off in 1914 with cavalry charges. ( ex cavalry officer)
I believe his persistence with sending wave after wave of soldiers over the top knowingly they'd get mown down is what he will be remembered for.
I've also checked Germans that were executed in WWI and the figure is considerably lower than the 300+ that the British carried out.
So the US and Germany were considerably less than the British........ France executed double that of the British but Id be interested to know how many were Afro-French.
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Hi
The deserters who were executed in the First World War were pardoned in 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/aug/17/military.immigrationpolicy
http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-shotatdawn.html
http://www.economist.com/node/7804031
Regards
Valda
i would also like to add to this.
I regularly go to the National Arboretum near Alrewas in Staffordshire, and there is a memorial there for the men, each his own name and age, along with the regiment he was in, on a plaque on a post, and they are arranged in a semi Circle around a central statue of a blindfolded soldier.
It may sound wierd, but its such a peaceful serene area, I often sit there just thinking, last time I was there I met a man visiting the plaque of a relative, I think it was either his father or brother, and he told me it gave him peace to know his relatives plaque was there surrounded by others who had met the same fate as him.
If you get chance you realy should go & see the memorial, its named 'Shot at Dawn' and situated behind the main memorial on the left hand side, any of the staff will give you directions to it if you ask ( I would add, its better to go in drier weather as the ground in most of the Arboretum is grassed & gets difficult in wet weather!)
Gaille
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I googled it.......78
3 drowned
12 (at least) by sniper
Quite a number by shell fire
22 small arms fire
1 accidentally poisoned
1 cholera
By the way I take your point on tanks.......... though he did start off in 1914 with cavalry charges. ( ex cavalry officer)
I believe his persistence with sending wave after wave of soldiers over the top knowingly they'd get mown down is what he will be remembered for.
I've also checked Germans that were executed in WWI and the figure is considerably lower than the 300+ that the British carried out.
So the US and Germany were considerably less than the British........ France executed double that of the British but Id be interested to know how many were Afro-French.
The wave after wave thing is also a contentious issue!
Dont forget that this was a war originally fought on 19th Century colonial terms, and planned for fast moving engagements with the cavalry doing what the tanks did later. It was no mistake that the Tank Corps were (and still are!) recognised by cavalry distinctions.
Haig learnt and embraced the new technologies. It was he who pushed forward the idea of All Arms attacks. I would write more eruditely on this, but I'm stuck on a hospital bed having had an abdo operation yesterday and thus have no access to the references in my library!!
What I will say however is that I cannot commend the Gary Sheffield book highly enough. and for something a bit more forthright Corrigans Mud Blood and Poppycock ;)
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Good luck on your recovery.
Though I think you should widen your reading material on Haig.
I'll leave this thread alone now......... I think most recognise he was one of the most stubborn of military leaders who cost far too many lives.
I believe it was his inability to learn from past mistakes that will consign him to being a weak military leader in most people's eyes.
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hello scrimnet
i too would like to add my best wishes for a speedy recovery for you and a happy new year to you and yours
trevor ;)
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hello gaille
thank you for posting that piece regarding the memorial for those executed i for one was not aware such a memorial existed and if i,m ever in the area would certainly like to go there to see it , i,ll have a google to see if there are photos of it online thinking about it .
happy new year to you
trevor
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hello gaille
thank you for posting that piece regarding the memorial for those executed i for one was not aware such a memorial existed and if i,m ever in the area would certainly like to go there to see it , i,ll have a google to see if there are photos of it online thinking about it .
happy new year to you
trevor
Hi Trevor,
Photo should be attached.
Also if you look at my avatar over on the left all the photos are of the NMA.
Gaille
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hello gaillle
bless your heart deary thanks for putting that up it certainly looks a beautiful memorial i can see why it,s special to so many very tasteful in deed , on a lighter note i,ve always wanted to have a frock coat such as portrayed but being such a shorthouse it would look more like an over coat on me.
trevor
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Speedy recovery Scrimnet. I see you are only too well aware that the first casualty of war is the truth.
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Speedy recovery Scrimnet. I see you are only too well aware that the first casualty of war is the truth.
Thanks Imber...They MAY let me out tomos....Almost a week... ::) Christmas night - New Years Day...Bonus
But it does mean a couple of weeks on the chaise longue with the vapours!
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Speedy recovery Scrimnet. I see you are only too well aware that the first casualty of war is the truth.
You'll find there are many versions of the truth.
Pedestals and rose tinted glasses have no place in War or History.
Happy New Year all.
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Best wishes for a speedy release and recovery Scrimnet. It is true to say that however much we discus the questions of errors committed by politicians and senior officers in past (and current) wars we will be quite unable to reinstate the casualities. However what we, and by that I mean the world, should do is to learn from our past mistakes and ensure they are never repeated in the future.
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i,m sorry i,ve got to come back in here on this , were now moving off the point made at the beggining of this which is the despicable shooting of our own men ok take out those that were shot for murder or other crimes against humanity it,s the men who were shot for so called cowardice thats the issue .
as to learning by our mistakes when is that going to happen i wait to see but i bet it ,s not in my lifetime
irishresearcher got it right in his last post read it and think on
trevor
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If we don't learn from our past mistakes t mo then in the course of this century the human race itself will certainly become part of history! Think about that!
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but as i say we aren,t learning by our mistakes were still putting young men in harms way and for what , at the end of the day we lose hundreds of them and gain absolutely nothing just bigger graveyards
trevor
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Then as I implied in my earlier reply if we don't learn from our past mistakes we will wipe out all life on the planet!
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thanks to all for your answers
sylvia
when will we ever learn
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May I commend x3 books to you all
Mud Blood And Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan
Forgotten Victory by Gary Sheffield
Blindfold And Alone by Hughes-Wilson and Corns
Thank you...I am always on the look out for reading matter on this subject. I shall put these on my 'most wanted' list.
Jen