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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: mrs griff on Monday 27 December 10 20:38 GMT (UK)
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Would a full term baby still born be registered as a death , date around 1934-1936
Mrs Griff
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What country? If England: "On 1st July 1927, stillbirth registration commenced."
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/civilreg.html
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The country was Wales so do it apply .
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The relevant act was the 1926 Act for the registration of births and deaths in England and Wales The Act did not apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland.
Stan
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Thanks hope I find what I am looking for
Mrs Griff
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Hi
The stillbirth GRO index (from 1927 onwards) is not public - you have to apply directly to the GRO. A stillbirth would not be registered as a death but as a stillbirth and would not appear in either the public birth birth or death indexes.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175676
Regards
Valda
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Do not forget burial registers and grave registers are a good source for burials of still-borns.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi
The stillbirth GRO index (from 1927 onwards) is not public - you have to apply directly to the GRO. A stillbirth would not be registered as a death but as a stillbirth and would not appear in either the public birth birth or death indexes.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175676
Regards
Valda
You are correct, Valda, but sometimes one might assume that a death registered an hour or less after a birth would be a still-born, but in some cases it wasn't. I deliberately avoided trying to trace my mother's first-born child, because I thought it would be tricky finding and getting the documentation, but when I bit the bullet and did some research, I found the birth and death certificate by the normal means, and obtained the documents by the normal means. The poor child was born during an air raid in WW2, and he could not get to the local hospital because the roads had been bombed, so he was transported about 10 miles across London. His death certificate put his age at 1 hour and the cause of death was prematurity.
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I thought if the baby lived even just a few seconds then it would be counted as a live birth and registered by the normal means. If the baby was born dead then it was a stillborn and those deaths registered in a separate register. I have a friend who said she had a stillborn twin brother. This was in 1954. He would have been recorded in the register of stillbirths.
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That is correct Coombs the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1926 states it this way-
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"still-born" and "still-birth" shall apply to any child which has issued forth from its mother after the twenty-eighth week of pregnancy and which did not at any time after being completely expelled from its mother, breathe or show any other signs of life.
Cheers
Guy
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Expelled from its mother. ;) Very civilised in 1926. 8) 8)
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Expelled from its mother. ;) Very civilised in 1926. 8) 8)
The same expression is used in the 1953 Act.
It is used out of necessity.
For example one could not use the term born as this could cause a problem with a birth by caesarean section.
In a similar way one may commonly come across the somewhat callous but again essential term disposal certificate.
The terms have to be simple to avoid confusion or legal argument.
Cheers
Guy
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I am not clear as to how a person who wishes to establish whether a sibling born in the late 1930's, for whom neither a birth nor death registration can be found, can search for the child as a stillbirth.
I can see how a parent, brother or sister can apply for a stillbirth certificate but without definite knowledge that there was such a stillbirth or even the exact year it might have taken place can one ask for a search covering, say, 3 or more years? Or is it necessary to order a certificate on the off-chance just giving a date range i.e. 1935-1940 and would they accept that wide a date span?
Selina
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I was looking for a death only a couple of days ago on SP, and the entry below mine was a child who lived only 2 minutes, which again verify's that as long as the child took a breath it had to be registered as a birth & death.
Trish
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I am not clear as to how a person who wishes to establish whether a sibling born in the late 1930's, for whom neither a birth nor death registration can be found, can search for the child as a stillbirth.
I can see how a parent, brother or sister can apply for a stillbirth certificate but without definite knowledge that there was such a stillbirth or even the exact year it might have taken place can one ask for a search covering, say, 3 or more years? Or is it necessary to order a certificate on the off-chance just giving a date range i.e. 1935-1940 and would they accept that wide a date span?
Selina
Yes, one has to apply to the Registrar General giving the approximate period for the still-birth.
I would also suggest mentioning in one's letter the reason for the interest.
cheers
Guy
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Very interesting thread. During a recent seach I have found my great grandmother had a set of twins that I had never heard of and on looking for a death certificate both show up as being aged 0. This was in 1926- so would they have been stillborn then if they show on a death certificate or would I need to obtain the death certificate to show this?
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They may have been born early as twins and only survived a short time,not necessarily still born though.They may also have died at any age up to 12 months and it would still show age 0.
Only the cert would tell you the reason for their deaths.
Carol
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Thanks Carol
I assumed they were both stillborn until I read this thread. Plus never knew there were twins in that side of the family until now either!
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assuming that the stillbirth was registered, my wife had a stillbirth in 1980, ( in wales) and neither my wife or i registered it, nor were we ever told that we had to, unless the hospital did so automatically, ( though i would assume it would have to be one of the parents)them in this case, it was never registered, so it may well have happened elswhere
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Very interesting thread. During a recent seach I have found my great grandmother had a set of twins that I had never heard of and on looking for a death certificate both show up as being aged 0. This was in 1926- so would they have been stillborn then if they show on a death certificate or would I need to obtain the death certificate to show this?
If there are death certificates (assuming you mean certified copies of entries in the deaths register) they were live births.
A still-birth has no birth certificate and no death certificate.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy,
yes there are birth and death certificates for both but as mentioned I 'assumed' they were still born. Im only new to this but defintaely have the bug already. Lots of information on this site to help us newbies though.
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Im only new to this but defintaely have the bug already.
thats the end of life as you know it now............................. ask the rest of us. ;D ;D ;D
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I know lol My partners already started to comment lol
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Hi Stephen
From 1927 onwards the stillbirth would legally need to have been registered for the necessary procedures for the child's body to be buried or cremated.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/HavingABaby/Givingbirth/DG_171268
The information illustrates how hospital procedures should have changed in the intervening 30 years and how parents now are involved and informed
'Stillbirth
Stillbirth is when a pregnancy has carried to 24 weeks but the baby dies before it is born. Reasons for a stillbirth are complex and not always understood.
The hours and days after the death of a baby may leave you feeling overwhelmed and shocked. You will have a number of choices and decisions to make after the birth, and your baby will need to be registered. Bereavement counsellors at the hospital will be able to guide you about what to do next.'
Regards
Valda
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Sorry Valda but you are a few years out the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1874 required -
"18. A person shall not wilfully bury or procure to be buried the body of any deceased child as if it were still-born.
A person who has control over or ordinarily buries bodies in any burial ground shall not permit to be buried in such burial ground the body of any deceased child as if it were still-born, and shall not permit to be buried or bury in such burial ground any still-born child before there is delivered to him either,-
(a.) A written certificate that such child was not born alive, signed by a registered medical practitioner who was in attendance at the birth or has examined the body of such child ; or
(b.) A declaration signed by some person who would, if the child had been born alive, have been required by this Act to give information concerning the birth, to the effect that no registered medical practitioner was present at the birth, or that his certificate cannot be obtained, and that the child was not born alive ; or
(c.) If there has been an inquest, an order of the coroner.
Any person who acts in contravention of this section shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds."
Cheers
Guy
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it looks like the hospital/doctor at the time must have registered the stillbirth, though how they would have been able to provide all the relevant details regarding my wife or i is a bit of a mystery
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Hi Guy
I did deliberately state (as it was a stillbirth in 1980)
'From 1927 onwards the stillbirth would legally need to have been registered' as in registered as a stillborn in the civil registration system.
I didn't presume there wouldn't be procedures before that otherwise you could have all the issues around children being deliberately smoothered etc and passed off as stillbirths. If anything the legislation was quite late considering the number of women who were regularly accused and tried just at the Old Bailey alone for infanticide and concealing births.
Stephen you could of course apply to the GRO for the stillbirth certificate if you wished to pursue it.
My understanding of stillbirth certificates is that cause of death was only added from 1960 and that babies were not allowed to be named until 1983? I'm not sure what other information was needed other than date and place, but it certainly surely should have been the names of the parents.
Regards
Valda
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You need to download the form, fill it in with parents names, my Mum is still alive so I got it on her behalf, but had she been deceased as is my Dad then I could still apply for it as a sibling, but I would the need to send the death certificates of both parents. Plus the year etc.
My siblings and I also knew about "Winifred Ann" who was stillborn and though she wasn't baptized my parents did give her a name, I also have the receipt for her burial which cost 12 shillings & 6 pence. I know she will be buried with others but I am looking to find the exact burial spot, she is buried in Heaton cemetery Bolton, I am in Oz, so taking a little time.
Good luck
Trish
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my grand mother had a still born she told my mother a lot of still born went in with some who had just die
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Very interesting thread. During a recent seach I have found my great grandmother had a set of twins that I had never heard of and on looking for a death certificate both show up as being aged 0. This was in 1926- so would they have been stillborn then if they show on a death certificate or would I need to obtain the death certificate to show this?
.......my grandmother had twins one still born no death cert... other one live 6 moths have death cert age 0 he die before he reach 1 that was 1915 so i cant find any info on the still born
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In parish registers I have seen notices of still born children in burials such as "a stillborn son of Joe Bloggs and Mary his wife".
As said cemeteries are a good place to find details on stillborns, and newspaper archives to see if there was an obituary.
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Thank you Guy for clarifying the procedure for me.
Best wishes,
Selina
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I had stillborn twins, in Wales, in 1991 and had to register a birth and a death for them.
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This is a very sad thread and my heartfelt sympathy goes to all that have experienced these births.
Hopefully it may help others to answer some questions which are often ones that people have a deeply felt need to resolve.
Selina
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In the 1911 census sometimes failure to find a missing birth or births if for example you have an ancestor who had 8 children, and 3 died but you can only find deaths for two, then the other one may have been a still birth.
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Hi
The 'fertility questions' asked on the 1911 census were
'In the 1911 census women were asked to state the ‘years the present marriage has lasted’, the number of children born alive to the present marriage (not just those who were living in the house) and how many had died.'
so again ignoring the existence of stillbirths and of course miscarriages.
Whoever filled in the household schdeule may of course have interpreted the question differently to how it was stated.
Regards
Valda
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Whoever filled in the household schdeule may of course have interpreted the question differently to how it was stated.
Yes, that's true, Valda, but the point I was trying to make was that any perceived barriers to accessing the information may be of our own making :)
I delayed the research of my mother's first-born child, because I'd read that it could be difficult to access the records, and even then I might not be able to get copies of certificates. In the end, when I did try, I was able to get the certificates as easily as all the other certificates that I'd bought. Much more poignant though.
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Hi Nick
In my last post I was clarifying only the point Coombs made in the previous post about the specific 'fertility' question on the 1911 census and was not refering to anything else previously stated on this topic.
Pre 1927 as Coombs has pointed out the major source for information on stillbirths is parish and cemetery burial records, particularly cemetery records as the parish registers may or may not include them - up to the particular individual church officials concerned, though they would of course always be included in more recent church registers.
Regards
Valda