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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Braindead on Saturday 25 December 10 15:12 GMT (UK)
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I wasn't sure whether to post this here, or in the London Board, or somewhere else, so if a moderator thinks it would be better in another forum, please move it.
I'm trying to find out about my great grandmother's family. I have quite a lot, but I'd like even more, and it is quite a saga, so here goes...
... Rose Tatiana de Bartholomey (my great grandmother, we always knew her as Tatiana) was born on the 7th december 1877 (info from death index). I don't know where, but in census returns, passenger lists etc she gives London as her place of birth. I can't find any matching entry in the births index though, and obviously I'd like to find out so I can get the birth certificate...
...her father was Count Michail Fedorovich de Bartholomey, who was Councillor to the Russian Embassy in London between 1870 and 1880 (this ties in with London being place of birth). He then went on to become Russian Ambassador in Washington, and a list of staff at the Russian legation there in 1880 lists his wife as Frances Mary Bartholomey. It has always been assumed in the family that she was Scottish, and was a daughter of the Duke of Hamilton...
...Tatiana had an elder sister, Hélène Marguerite De Bartholemey, also apparently born in London, c.1875. In Hélène's marriage banns (in Paris!), her mother's name is given as Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton...
...The Count's marriage failed and Tatiana & Hélène were packed off to a convent, first in Paris & then on the Isle of Wight - Tatiana & Hélène can be found there in the 1891 census, though the transcription on Ancestry leaves a lot to be desired - my great grandmother is listed as "Rola Bartholoma", which highlights one of the problems I've had - how the name is spelt. I have seen it variously with or without the "de", and spelt Bartholomey, Batholomei or Bartholoma...
...The same arises with Tatiana's father - I've seen both Michel and Michail. He remarried & died in Surrey on 31st July 1895, aged 58. (Info from death indexes and Probate register). Tatiana married my great grandfather, Redmond Barton Cafferata, in London in Oct/Nov/Dec 1901 in Kensington...
What I'd really like to know is:
1. Where was Tatiana born? Is it in the BMD indexes? Is there a birth certificate?
2. Were Michel de Bartholomey and Frances Mary married in London? If so, Is it in the BMD indexes? Is there a marriage certificate?
3. Any further light you can shed, including Hélène's exact place of birth.
Many thanks in advance, and Merry Christmas to you all.
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Hi Braindead,
Have you seen this marriage?
Jun 1879 Kensington 1a 314
Michael Bartholomei or Bartholonei to possibly Frances Mary Broadwood
That's after the girls' births ... ???
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Ha! How do you like this? A year earlier than you thought though:
Birth Rosa Tatlina B Broadwood
Mar 1877 Marylebone 1a 572
Also:
Helen Margaret Broadwood
Dec 1874 Marylebone 1a 586
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Hi
Just found that and when you check the image it is Rose Tatiana
Junev
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Here is the geneology of the Dukes of Hamilton; I can't see any daughters by the name of Frances Mary or Marie in the appropriate timescale (though I dare say there may have been illegitimate offspring!)
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Hamilton1643.htm
Have you seen this? Rose is pictured and mentioned on this (French!) site though it doesn't help much with your queries!
http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/jaguar/sujet986.htm
I am no further on with your specific queries though!
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I am no further on with your specific queries though!
I think I answered them anyway :D
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yes, Tati, you got in there whilst I was dredging up my schoolgirl French!
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The chap on the French site seems to be a fan of Redmond, how great is that! 8)
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Now this looks potentially interesting, given the Hamilton "connection"
1861 census:
Chas Hamilton Broadwood age 36, b Crawley, Sussex, occ. late ?? to Her Majesty
Mary Louisa Broadwood, wife, age 25, b Inverness
living at 2, Nw Bond St, Westminster St James
According to BMD, Charles Hamilton Broadwood d q4 1872 in Steyning.
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I think we have it :)
I've found a Rootsweb page with mention of Charles divorcing his wife (Mary Short) for her affair with "a minor member of Royalty". Apparently this made the front page of the London Times.
Mary seems to have had an interesting life, if half of the story so far is to be believed!
Modified to add: The "minor member" being the Duke of St Albans (who he?!)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0awz/
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Well thanks!!!
:D :D :D
Tati, I think you've got the births of the two sisters and the marriage of the parents too. I guess I'll be emptying the coffers to get the certificates, but I definitely think they're the right ones. Thanks SO MUCH!!!
Tati, I have been in touch with the Frenchman who posted about the car, and yes, he is a real fan of Redmond!! He owns a telescope that Redmond had built in the 1930s and has been able to fill me in on Redmond's life in France (he spent much of his later years there, and died and is buried there).
Annie65115. That is REALLY intriguing about Chas Hamilton Broadwood, certainly merits further investigation. I wonder if Mary Louisa Broadwood eventually became Mrs Bartholomei?
Now I need to get all of this straight in my head! Thanks again, It really is amazing how you've helped in just a couple of hours!
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Hi,
1863 Divorce
Broadwood Chas Hamilton b Broadwood Mary B Duke of St. Albans
Junev
amend - should have been ....Hamilton v Broadwood of course!
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Here's the relevant Duke:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Beauclerk,_10th_Duke_of_St_Albans
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Do you have Hélène Marguerite's actual marriage cert, Braindead? It's online here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ax0/
(hope the link works - click on 'visualiser' and scroll to page 12)
It confirms her birth details:
Marylebone, 24 Sep 1874
father Michel Bartholomei (deceased), mother Mary Broadwood Hamilton (deceased)
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I've got a feeling that Mary Short, Mary Louisa Broadwood, Mary Broadwood Hamilton, Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton and Frances Mary Broadwood may well all have been the same person; a mistress of self-reinvention, I suspect.
A copy of the marriage cert for Mary Short and Charles Broadwood is online, if you search in Ancestry.
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The question now presenting itself to me is was Mary Broadwood / Mary Short / Louisa Beresford, divorced by Charles Hamilton Broadwood, the same person as the Frances Mary Broadwood that Michel Bartholomei married in 1879?
Charles Hamilton Broadwood's wife Mary would have been about 43 in 1879, and Michel Bartholomei would have been about 42, so the ages fit.
How can I prove / disprove the theory that they were one and the same person?
Thanks again, for all the help you've given me, it's made my day OOPS!!! Better not say that on Xmas Day!
N.B. This was written whilst you were posting Tati & Annie65115!
Do you have Hélène Marguerite's actual marriage cert, Braindead? It's online here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ax0/
(hope the link works - click on 'visualiser' and scroll to page 12)
It confirms her birth details:
Marylebone, 24 Sep 1874
father Michel Bartholomei (deceased), mother Mary Broadwood Hamilton (deceased)
I can't get the link to work unfortunately & am not having any luck when I put the search details in - what did you enter?
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I reckon you need the 1879 marriage cert - it will tell you Frances Mary's marital status and father's name.
Does this link to Paris archives work?
http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/index.php
> select 'accéder aux registres d'actes', then:
Type d'acte: acte de mariage
Arrondissement: 16e
Date de l'acte: 26/02/1896
then hit 'rechercher'
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My gut feeling is that this is all the same person. The webpage to which I alluded earlier suggested that Mary Short/Broadwood left England some time after the divorce scandal,and may have died in Paris (this was someone's tree and it didn't state the source of this info.
I agree that it would be a good idea to get the marraige cert though of course if it is the same person, she may have bent the truth a little now and again!
Have you been able to access the certificate for Charles B's marraige to Mary Short? At that time (1854) she gave her name as Mary (no middle name), full age, a spinster, father's name Charles, profession "esq"(!) --- Just for comparison with the marraige cert to the Count!
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Thanks Tati, that link has worked & I'm now wading through a mass of French. It's interesting that the name "Mary Broadwood Hamilton" is given for Hélène's mother.
I certainly will get the marriage certificate of Michel Bartholomey and Frances Mary Broadwood & I'll let you know what it says.I've got a feeling that Mary Short, Mary Louisa Broadwood, Mary Broadwood Hamilton, Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton and Frances Mary Broadwood may well all have been the same person; a mistress of self-reinvention, I suspect.
I quite agree! ;)
A copy of the marriage cert for Mary Short and Charles Broadwood is online, if you search in Ancestry.
I've got that now, thanks. & thanks for the updated reply.
this was someone's tree and it didn't state the source of this info.
I know how frustrating this can be!
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I'll look forward to hearing about the cert -- or anything else you find out!
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I've already ordered it - should be dispatched on Jan 5th.
I've looked at the web pages on rootsweb that refer to Charles Hamilton Broadwood & Mary Louisa Broadwood & am not convinced that the details are correct - the 1861 census gives her age as 25 and place of birth as Inverness whereas the rootsweb pages put her 5 years older and born in London - not that it's strictly relevant to whether she's the same person Michel de Bartholomey married.
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Just been looking at the Passenger lists on Ancestry & have found the entry for Michel, Frances & Helen Bartholomey to USA in 1880. Interestingly, Tatiana, the younger daughter isn't listed as a passenger, & Frances gives her age as 30 - some 15 years younger than the Mary Broadwood we've been looking at.
:-\
Edit: Been looking at the Broadwood divorce case in the Times & the judge was very unflattering about all parties & in the end, refused the divorce petition! This means that Mary WASN'T divorced, so when my certificate arrives, I'm now hoping that her status reads "Widow" rather than divorcee.
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Hello all.... :)
Some great work by Rootchat members as usual!
Braindead...I see from your profile you are in North Notts....so if you are not already aware you can use your Nottinghamshire Library card number to access the Infotrac newspaper resource online - http://infotrac.galegroup.com/itweb/ntm_ttda
The newspapers have 27 references for "Charles Hamilton Broadwood" and one for "Mary Hamilton Broadwood"....... fascinating and too much to report here.
The 1870 for Mary says she lived and cohabited with her husband for nine years in England, France, Italy & Belgium....had one child now dead....husband deserted her and ever since remained apart and separate....
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Thanks - I'll have a look. I've looked at the Times reports of the divorce case, but haven't searched the individual names. I will now.
Thanks again.
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Well, the marriage certificate arrived today, which I think is pretty good going allowing for the holidays.
Unfortunately, it isn't exactly conclusive:
Frances Mary Broadwood is listed as a widow, which fits, but the certificate doesn't name her father - in the father's name and surname section is what looks like the word "George" but that has been crossed out and initialled "B" (I assume the registrar, Mr Barnes). There is nothing in the father's occupation.
I guess the next step is to get the birth certificate for her children - hopefully that'll give her maiden name, but what do people think - are Frances Mary Broadwood and Mary Hamilton Broadwood one and the same?
Interestingly the address of both parties is given as 47 Beaufort Gardens, Brompton so they were obviously living together quite openly.
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Oh, what a shame! Does it give her age at least?
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Unfortunately the entry is just "full age".
:(
The certificate hasn't been a total waste though - I now know the exact date of their marriage + the name and occupation of Michel Bartholomei's father. I had no idea of these before.
:)
I have also been given permission by my better half to get the necessary birth certificate.
:)
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I have also been given permission by my better half to get the necessary birth certificate.
LOL! Excellent :D
I take it the witnesses aren't any help either?
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The witness names are a ? ? ? Friend and Jane Friend.
I haven't decided whether Friend was their surname or relationship to the happy couple!!
:o
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Oooh, how frustrating!
Of course, if it was all the same woman, she was quite good at bending facts such as her name, so we wouldn't necessarily expect the marraige certificate to give the full unadulterated truth.
And if they were different people, all I can say is that there's an awful lot of coincidences going on.
(It also struck me that if Mary Broadwood, wife of Charles, was having a fling with a duke, then she was clearly moving in the sort of social circles that might include diplomats as well).
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(It also struck me that if Mary Broadwood, wife of Charles, was having a fling with a duke, then she was clearly moving in the sort of social circles that might include diplomats as well).
According to the newspapers, at various points Michel Bartholomei met Queen Victoria, the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Edinburgh - who was married to the daughter of the Czar. He also met the Czar's brother and from that, I'd assume that he met the Czar too.
So yes, they certainly moved in the same social circles, although I wouldn't have thought that Mary was popular with the aristocracy after her fling with the Duke ended up in court!
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My brain's really starting to hurt now!
I got the birth certificate today for Rose Tatiana Bartholomei and...
...mother's name: Frances Mary Broadwood formerly LOWTHER! ??? >:( :'(
Can anyone help me now?
I've had a quick search on Ancestry but haven't as yet waded through all the possibilities, but nothing immediately springs to mind. Any thoughts or suggestions?
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There's a Frances Lowther and Henry Broadwood as a possible marraige in St Martin's in 1840on freeBMD, but would that be too early?
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I think that would be too early - but thanks for looking.
Re-assessing the evidence, the marriage certificate for Mary Short / Charles Broadwood in 1854 gives both as "full" age, putting Mary's year of birth as around 1833 if that is correct.
I got to thinking about one of my first ever roots chats posts: This photo dating thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,410178.0.html), which put the date of the picture at about 1860 and the age of the woman as in her early 20s. If that's correct we're looking at a year of birth between 1835-1840 slightly young for the Broadwood marriage, but managable.
It seems that this lady was married to someone by the name of Broadwood but was a widow by the mid 1870s.
She then married again and became a Bartholomei.
In her daughter's marriage banns in France she's Marie Broadwood Tourmaly Hamilton & in the licence she's Mary Broadwood Hamilton (the Frances has gone, but that could be an easy mistake by Hélène)
I am still inclined to thinking we've got a many-aliased lady here, but it's getting more difficult to link her with Charles - I'd like to find the truth though as she still intrigues me, an interesting lady even if she's not who I thought, and there's not an obvious fit for a Lowther so far. Of course it could just be another alias...
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In her daughter's marriage banns in France she's Marie Broadwood Tourmaly Hamilton
The image looks like Tormaly or Formaly: I was wondering if it was just a misunderstood 'formerly'
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It is a possibility that it could be formerly, but as far as we know she wasn't "formerly Hamilton". There is also the language issue - my experience of French is limited to Google translate & it doesn't seem a similar word in French: anciennement or autrefois. The family were fluent French speakers too at that time as well.
As to where do I go next, I think I'll have to invest another £9 on Hélène's birth certificate as I don't have that one yet.
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Henry Broadwood m Frances Lowther 1840
Now in 1851, Henry Broadwood, Member of Parliament, was living with his wife Frances, young son Arthur and the usual servants, in Tunbridge Wells. In Frances, Henry had married a younger woman - but her dob would have been around 1819, so she could not have been having children in the 1870s under any guise.
However, in another headache-inducing coincidence, their second (first? what were parliamentary rules in those days? haha!) home was in Argyll St in London, in a house that had previously been home to Chevalier George de Benkhausen, Russian consul!!!
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However, in another headache-inducing coincidence, their second (first? what were parliamentary rules in those days? haha!) home was in Argyll St in London, in a house that had previously been home to Chevalier George de Benkhausen, Russian consul!!!
It all seems very incestuous / nepotistic! :o
As an aside, going back to the orignal (?) Mary Broadwood, in the 1861 census she gave her age as 25 i.e. born somewhere around 1836, yet in the marriage register for her wedding to Charles in 1854 she is described as of full age i.e. born in 1833 or earlier. I know it's only a small difference but I think it illustrates how careless the lady was with facts about herself.
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The latest installment...
Just received the birth certificate of Hélène - the name on the certificate is the Anglicised Helen Margaret by the way, but the really interesing part, as may be supposed is the mother's name:
Mary Broadwood formally HAMILTON ;D ??? :o
This, of course set me thinking -
In her daughter's marriage banns in France she's Marie Broadwood Tourmaly Hamilton
The image looks like Tormaly or Formaly: I was wondering if it was just a misunderstood 'formerly'
I think that's the case - if Hélène just gave her birth certificate when registering for her marriage in Paris then the person completing the banns may just have copied the name. Thanks for that Tati. :D
Then I got to thinking further, that as the certificates I have are from the copied register rather than the original, could there have been a transcription error when copying the original: there are some similarities in the letter formations of Hamilton & Lowther when written in script.
Where does this leave me now, and where do I go from here?
I am, of course, much further on thanks to the Rootschat community - less than a month ago I had no definite knowledge of the daughter's births or Frances Mary's marriage - you've helped me find them so huge thanks. :) :) :) :) :)
On all three certificates, Mary goes by her married name of Broadwood, but it's variously Hamilton, Lowther, or nothing entered.
My instinct is that Mary WAS the wife of Charles Broadwood, used his middle name of Hamilton to suit her and that Lowther, on Tatiana's birth certificate is a mis-transcription.
Any more thoughts to help me along?
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Do you have any more info about Mary/Marie/Frances's death?
--edited to add--
Charles Broadwood made a will, details of which are on the national probate calendar (I got this through Ancestry). As his divorce had been refused, he was still technically married to Mary at the time of his death, so I assume his will may make reference to her, even if it's only to say that she gets nothing!
For the sake of a fiver, and if it were me, I'd send away for a copy and see if there are any more clues to be gained from it. Probably not- but you never know ----
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I haven't sent off for The will as I don't think it will help. There were two more court cases involving the Broadwoods. In 1870 Mary went to court and got a restraining order against Charles, stopping him from taking any of her assets, And in 1874, she challenged Charles' Will - unsuccessfully, with costs being awarded against her.It is interesting To note that, if she was the same person, she would have been pregnant with Helene at the time of this challenge. I don't know anything about her death,except that it was before Helene's marriage. I suspect it was a long time before, due to the girls being put in a convent by the time of the 1891 census. A newspaper report at the end of 1882 shows that Michel was relieved of the post of minister to Japan at his own request and I wonder if Mary's death was the reason for this request?
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I was just thinking that if you were really, really lucky, the will may refer to "my estranged wife Mary aka Maria/Frances and currently shacking up with a certain Russian" -- or words to that effect!
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"my estranged wife Mary aka Maria/Frances and currently shacking up with a certain Russian"
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
As you've put it like that, I can see the benefit of the outlay, especially as I was going to send off for Michel's will next.
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I have been fascinated by this thread.
I hope that you are still active.
I research all Broadwoods and because of that I was aware of the marriage of Charles Hamilton Broadwood to Mary (Ann/Louisa) Short, but knew nothing of her subsequent life.
I have recently been collaborating with a descendant of the Short family and that got me looking again at Mary Ann Short. I am fascinated by all her possible aliases.
Do you have any new information that is not in the thread.
For instance I believe that I have a record of her death.
I hope to hear from you.
David
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Yes, it has been fascinating to read through it again! I notice we were posting on Xmas day, I’m not sure how I got away with that- the OH must have been immersed in the TV!
I too would love to hear if the story has been taken any further.
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Glad to hear that someone is out there.
I see from another thread that Braindead did get Michel's will, but not much detail given.
An extra piece that I picked up that wasn't in the thread was in the England and Wales National Probate Calendar under Frances Mary Bartholomei.
She died 18 June 1884 at 20 Mariannen Gasse, Vienna, Austria.
She had been living at 101Tverskoy Boulevard in Moscow which is shown as Michel's address.
David
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'Quote from: Braindead on Monday 10 January 11 22:32 GMT (UK)
In her daughter's marriage banns in France she's Marie Broadwood Tourmaly Hamilton
The image looks like Tormaly or Formaly: I was wondering if it was just a misunderstood 'formerly''
Just come fresh to this thread but on reading through initially I immediately assumed - maybe incorrectly - that Tourmaly, rather than being formerly was simply a misquote of de Bartholomei.
Pheno
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Hello, Mary Ann Short/Mary Short/Mary Louisa Short is my 3rd great aunt and I along with some other cousins have been researching her for a long time. But its been a while since we visited her again and this thread definitely brings her into the forefront again! She seems to have changed her name and probably her age to suit her circumstances. Thank you to all for your contributions and I look forward to following and hopefully contributing to this chat too. I will pass on this thread to a cousin who did a lot of research... it will be interesting to see what she says too.
The probate record for Charles Hamilton Broadwood states that he had effects under 2,000 pounds.
Angela
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I've got a feeling that Mary Short, Mary Louisa Broadwood, Mary Broadwood Hamilton, Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton and Frances Mary Broadwood may well all have been the same person; a mistress of self-reinvention, I suspect.
I think Marie Broadwood Tormaly Hamilton, should probably read 'Formerly'?
Annie
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In her daughter's marriage banns in France she's Marie Broadwood Tourmaly Hamilton
The image looks like Tormaly or Formaly: I was wondering if it was just a misunderstood 'formerly'
I should have kept reading prior to posting earlier ::)
Annie
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A needle with an interesting thread attached. I look forward to further instalments.
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More interesting information:
Hélène Marguerite Bartholomei married Jean Gabriel Chaâles des Etangs 26 Feb 1896 in Paris.
They had a child Andrée Marie Chaâles des Etangs.
She married Louis Andre Thebaud, American businessman, sportsman and philanthropist in the Gilded Age, who was 38 years her senior, so the family was still moving in rarefied circles.
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fyi
I have updated FamilySearch Family Tree with the BMD information from this thread. I would welcome any collaborative help and comments over there.