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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ComposeMail on Monday 20 December 10 20:12 GMT (UK)
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Help me find the child who died in the fire - she was a child of Robert Charles Gooch and Margaret Murray (or Murry). Her father Robert born 10 June 1866 at Blundeston, Suffolk. Initally he was a Brewer's Labourer, then became a Police Constable and, presumably when he retired from the Police, moved to Lancashire. Her mother Margaret born 1866/1867 in Dublin, Ireland. According to the 1891 Census they lived at Wagon & Horses Yard, Tombland, Norwich, Suffolk; in the 1901 Census living at Notley Croft, Abbotts Langley, Hertfordshire; and in the 1911 Census living at Police Station, Little Hadham, Hertfordshire.
The 1911 Census records that they had 11 children, but only 10 surviving by 1911. I assume the missing child was the one who died in the fire. I don't know the first name of the child, but family knowledge has it that it was "a female young baby - died in her cot in a housefire".
Can anybody out there help with identifying the name and birthdate of the child, and when she died. Also any newspaper reports on the event.
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Hi
Righty-ho....
1901 the kids with them were:-
Charles W (aged ten) - for some reason get a smily face when I type 8 and 10! never mind ;D
Margaret (aged eight)
Edwin M (aged 4)
Violet P L (aged 3)
James V (aged 1)
There is a interesting gap between Margaret and Edwin that could easily be a missing child
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Charles W (aged ten) - for some reason get a smily face when I type 8 and 10! never mind ;D
Margaret (aged eight)
Just to interupt a minute - I think if you remove the brackets it might work ! :)
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:) thanks - worked it out eventually :-[
I can't find them in 1891 - do you have the census reference?
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With additional children from 1911 (so when we look at birth records we know who survivied!)
Ethel aged 16
Gladus May aged 9
Eline Rachel aged 7
Sydney Walter aged 5
Voirey (!?) Tessa aged 4
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Ok - so we have
Charles W, born about 1890
Margaret, born about 1892
Ethel, born about 1895
Edwin, born about 1897
Violet P L, born about 1898
James V, born about 1900
Gladys May, born about 1902
Eline Rachel, born about 1904
Sydney Walter, born about 1906
Viorey (?) Tessa, born about 1907
10 out of 11 - that gap is still there between 1892 and 1895. need to see if we can recover them off freebmd to get exact years...
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:) thanks - worked it out eventually :-[
I can't find them in 1891 - do you have the census reference?
Robert is down as Charles RG12; Piece: 1523; Folio 6; Page 6
Ethel was born in Chorley Wood, where was Margaret born?
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:) thanks - worked it out eventually :-[
I can't find them in 1891 - do you have the census reference?
Robert is down as Charles RG12; Piece: 1523; Folio 6; Page 6
Ethel was born in Chorley Wood, where was Margaret born?
Hemel Hempstead or Chorley Wood - census not clear as its written over 2 lines
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Margaret is bn Dec qtr 1892 Hemel Hempstead
Ethel is bn Dec qtr 1894 Watford
No other births in HH or W between those dates
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Edwin Murray is bn Sept qtr 1896 Watford
Violet Priscilla is bn Dec qtr 1897 Watford
James Victor is bn DEc qtr 1899 Watford
Gladys May is bn Jun qtr 1901 Watford
Aline Rachel is bn Dec qtr 1902 Watford
Walter Sydney is bn Dec qtr 1904 Watford
Vera Theresa is bn Dec qtr 1906 Hertford
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do we know when the parents married? (maybe a gap before the first child or a twin or younger than the Viorey?)
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oooh! There is a Lilian Dorothy Gooch bn Mar qtr 1910 Hertford who dies Jun qtr 1910 Bishop Stortford......
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oooh! There is a Lilian Dorothy Gooch bn Mar qtr 1910 Hertford who dies Jun qtr 1910 Bishop Stortford......
well done ! that looks promising...!
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Little Haddam in 1911 census is only about 3 miles away from Bishops Stortford....will have to see if LH falls into that registration district.
Edit: and it certainly does http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/bishops%20stortford.html
birth certificate only way to solve 100% methinks
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Well Rutht22000, Spidermonkey, and Pels. that is fantastic! Thank you so much! ;D
I will send for the Birth Cert!
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Hi,
I got the Birth Cert, and the Death Cert for Lilian Dorothy Gooch. These confirm she was indeed the child of Robert Charles Gooch, a Police Constable, and Margaret Gooch, formerly Murry.
The Death Cert gives no clue that Lilian died in a fire. Cause of Death is given as Marasmus Syncope: which I understand means a generalised failure to thrive.
Help!
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Could it be one of the other older children and the story has got mangled with time passing and it possibly happened post 1911 as clearly Lilian is the 11th child?
Have you gone through to see if you could find what happened to all of the other siblings, married, died etc as you may be able to do it by a process of elimination and see if any of them died as children?
Marasmus is the generally failure to thrive, but the syncope can be due to a heart problem
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I agree with Ruth that you might need to match and dispatch the other children to get to the truth. Also, I think it might be worth contacting Hertfordshire Record Office to see whether there are any newspapers that survive from that would have reported a fire.
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Edwin M Gooch mar 1918 to Florence White, so we can assume he survived!
Violet P Gooch mar Mario I Cerutti in 1917
James Victor Gooch died in 1977 Liverpool
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possibly dispatching Vera Teresa marrying in Liverpool in 1928 to O'Hara and Gladys May as well (if she married in Liverpool too?)
bit stuck on Aline Rachel...
I wonder if it was definitely this generation and possible a grandchild of Margaret & Robert?
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Well it looks as if Walter Sidney died in Liverpool as well (1975), so I wonder if the family moved up there.
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Possible for Ethel M Gooch marrying in Liverpool in 1927.
As you say Ruth, perhaps it was one of the grandchildren of Robert and Margaret. Or perhaps it was Lilian, but she survived the fire and later died. Perhaps her lungs were damaged by smoke and so she was never strong etc? :-\
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Possible for Ethel M Gooch marrying in Liverpool in 1927.
As you say Ruth, perhaps it was one of the grandchildren of Robert and Margaret. Or perhaps it was Lilian, but she survived the fire and later died. Perhaps her lungs were damaged by smoke and so she was never strong etc? :-\
its possible - if the children from Robert & Margaret can already be accounted for then it could be another generation.
But Lilian may not have been strong enough if she inhaled smoke - on looking further into it, syncope can come about due to smoke inhalation/reduced lung function so its possible, but just possible with no further proof that Lilian was the one caught in the fire.
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And syncope is not fun - I had it when I was pregnant with my son and on my bad days I was fainting upto 8 times a day!
Think Margaret Florence Gooch can be accounted for with a marriage in 1916 to Herbert Knight, so that's another one off the list!
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bit stuck on Aline Rachel...
Wonder if Aline is actually Eileen R Gooch mar James Gorst in Liverpool in 1937?
Added: got a match on an Eileen Rachel Gorst bn 1902 dying in Crosby 1970
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Yep that looks like it could be Aline/Eileen
i think they are nearly accounted for and I can't find any more children born after Lilian
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Yup, just Charles William Gooch bn 1890 to find now.
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The 1911 census has Ethel and Charles up in Liverpool (niece and nephew of James and Theresa Mason) which explains the Liverpool connection and also firmly puts Charles as an adult.
Therefore, if it wasn't Lilian who died from the fire, it must have been a grandchild.
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yep - have to agree with you there....the only thing that puts the 2 together is girl, baby and part of the cause of death that can be due to many things, one being smoke inhalation. without anything more specific on the death certificate for Lilian, its impossible to say and the next generation needs looking into
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Think we need Composemail to come back and see whether there is a possibility of the family story being another generation down.
Good work though, Ruth, on tracking all the siblings down!
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Hi Spidermonkey, and Rutht 22000,
Well done in tracking down all the children’s marriages etc.
The family story was that the child who died in the fire was one of Margaret Murray’s children. But you have now accounted for them all, so perhaps you are right and we should be looking another generation down.
I am not surprised that so many of the children’s marriages occurred in Liverpool. It is possible that Robert and Margaret moved there when he retired out of the police force. The family story is that “they had an eating house in Great Howard Street in Liverpool”. I now have their daughter ETHEL’S Marriage Cert (1927 in Liverpool) to William Christopher Oldfield, which gave her father Robert Charles Gooch’s occupation as “dining room proprietor”.
Ethel and her brother Charles were living with their aunt and uncle Theresa and James Mason in Liverpool, Theresa (Teresa) nee Murray was the sister of Margaret Murray (Murry). Teresa was born in Dublin, and married there on 20.7.1879. By any chance was the child who died in the fire belonging to James and Theresa Mason? However, as far as I know, they had no children of their own. Their address in the 1911 Census was 70 Dublin Street, Great Howard Street, Liverpool (perhaps the family memory got a mixed up here, or perhaps the 2 families did eventually live together)?
Teresa Mason died 7.1.1933 (age about 73), and her husband James Mason died before her on 2.11.1919 (age about 60). We don’t know where they died – presumably the Liverpool area.
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Hi again Spidermonkey, and Rutht 22000,
I've been researching the grandchildren of Margaret Murry, and have come up with 2 who died young: I have great hopes that one of them is the child who died in the fire - now awaiting the Death Certs which I have ordered up.
Meanwhile I have been working on locating the correct Birth details for Margaret Gooch (nee Murray) or Murry.
She was born 1868/69 in Dublin, Ireland (confirmed by the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Census).
The Cert for her 1926 marriage to Robert Charles Gooch shows her age as 57, suggesting she was born 1869.
Her maiden name is confirmed on the Birth/Death Certs of some of her children.
She was the daughter of Edward Murray, and Alice Hayden.
We have the strange situation where there are 3 children named Margaret born to this couple:
The first was the child Margaret who died, aged 1 year, 8 months on 20 August 1861, from 26 Clarence Street, Dublin (she is buried in the family grave in Glasnevin, Dublin, and I have confirmation of this information from the Glasnevin Trust records – including the fact that she was the child of Edward Murray).
The second Margaret Murray (for which I have a Birth Certificate) was born 12 October 1866 at 25 Clarence Street, Dublin: father was Edward Murray of 25 Clarence Street, and the mother was Alice Murray (nee Hayden).
The third Margaret Murray (again I have the Birth Certificate) was born 15 August 1867 at 25 Clarence Street: father was Edward Murray of 25 Clarence Street, and the mother was Alice Murray (nee Hayden).
I have to assume that the 2nd Margaret (born 12 October 1866) also died, but I cannot find any matching death records. Therefore leaving the 3rd. Margaret Murray (born 1867) as the one I am looking for, i.e. the one who became Margaret Gooch.
I would be grateful to have your comments on this situation! What do you think?
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Until proven otherwise, I too would assume that the second Margaret died. It is not unusual to find that names are recycled within families with younger children being named after siblings that died.
One caveat with this, which I don't think applies in this situation but is worth flagging up, is that in some cases names which we would consider short forms/nicknames are given to living siblings - so for example you might have sisters christened Lizzie and Elizabeth.
Keep us informed with the grandchild hunt!
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Many thanks for that Spidermonkey!
Yes, waiting with baited breath for the Death Certs to arrive - could take a couple of weeks before they get here - but I will definitely come back to you when I get them.
Keep your fingers etc crossed!
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Hello again Spidermonkey,
The 2 Death Certs I ordered up arrived today - I guess the GRO are not too busy at the moment!
Alas, neither of them appear to have been the child who died in the fire.
The first Death Cert was for Doris Louise Cerutti, died 16 May 1921, age 8 months, at her home 108 Park Road, Toxteth Park, Liverpool C.B. Death Cert showed she was the daughter of Mario Cerutti, a motor wagon driver. Her mother Violet (Violet Priscilla Gooch) was the Informant. Doris Louise died from Bronchitis Convulsions.
Violet and Mario appear to have had 2 other children who both survived: (*)
The second Death Cert was for Margaret Caroline Gorst, died 3 July 1939, age 20 months, at the General Hospital Waterloo in the reg district of Crosby, Lancs. Her home was at 27 Manor Avenue, Great Crosby. Her Death Cert shows that her father James William Gorst was the Informant (and in attendance), and his occupation was shown as Ship’s Quartermaster, Merchant Service. Cause of death was cardiac failure, and tuberculous meningitis.
James William Gorst and his wife Aline (Eileen) Rachel Gooch seem to have had just one other child: (*) He seems to have survived.
The other grandchildren of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry which I located (and all seem to have survived) were:
Born to Herbert Knight and Margaret Florence Gooch.
4 entries in the Birth Index with the surname Knight and mother’s name Gooch:
(*) All these children seem to have survived. (*) (I suppose this last one seems unlikely as the mother would have been aged 51 when the child was born).
Ethel Maud Gooch married William Christopher Oldfield 11.6.1927 in Liverpool. I checked the records but could find no children born to Ethel and William.
Edwin Murray Gooch married Florence White in the last Qtr of 1918 in Bishops Stortford, Herts. It appears Edwin and Florence may have had 2 children:
(*) These children seem to have survived.
James Victor Gooch married Florence M. Black in the 2nd Qtr of 1928 in Liverpool.
The Birth Index shows the following 2 children born to father Gooch, and mother Black:
(*) These children seem to have survived.
Gladys May Gooch married James Murthwaite in the 3rd Qtr of 1924 in Liverpool.
I checked the Birth Index, and the following children were born to father Murthwaite and mother Gooch:
(*) These children seem to have survived.
Walter Sidney Gooch
I checked the Marriage Index and the only entry in the Liverpool area was in 1931 to Maude Richardson.
It appears from the Birth Index that they had 2 children:
(*) Both these children seem to have survived.
Vera Teresa Gooch married Bernard O’Hara in the 4th Qtr of 1928 in Liverpool.
I checked the Birth Index, but Vera and Bernard don’t seem to have had any children.
Lilian Dorothy Gooch born 6 Feb 1910 at Milestone Road, Knebworth, Hertfordshire. This is the daughter of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry who died 22 May 1910, age 3 months and 3 weeks, and who appears to have died of natural causes according to her Death Cert.
The oldest child of Robert Gooch and Margaret Murry was Charles William Gooch, born 27 May 1890 in Norwich, Norfolk, but who lived in Liverpool with his aunt and uncle James Mason and Teresa Mason, nee Murray. I could find no obvious match in the Marriage Index for Charles, and therefore have not been able to trace any children.
I would be grateful for your comments and thoughts, ideas on all this, and any more help you can give me to find the child who died in the fire.
(*) Moderator's Note: details of people removed as it is quite possible some or all still alive.
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How do I get in touh with Ruth22000.
I have recently read a post about the 'Knowles' family who lived at 23 Ashfield. John and Hannah Knowles. They are the Great Grandparents of my partner and we would like to know any information there might be available for them.
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Hi johnlynn40,
Don't know for sure. I suppose if you put up your request as a new topic, then Rutht22000 will respond.
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Hi Spidermonkey and Rutht22000,
I have not received any response to my post of Wednesday 26 January re The Child You Died in the Fire. Hope you can help.