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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ComposeMail on Monday 20 December 10 00:23 GMT (UK)
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Help me find the marriage details of Robert Charles Gooch to Margaret Murray. Robert born 10 June 1866 at Blundeston, Suffolk. Margaret Murray born 1866/1867 in Dublin, Ireland. They are in the 1891 Census living at Wagon & Horses Yard, Tombland, Norwich, Suffolk; in the 1901 Census living at Notley Croft, Abbotts Langley, Hertfordshire; and in the 1911 Census living at Police Station, Little Hadham, Hertfordshire. I believe their first child was Charles William Gooch, born in Norwich 27 May 1890.
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Hi ComposeMail,
Welcome to Rootschat.
I have searched, and there is only one instance of these names.
Transcribed by FreeBMD as follows:
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
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Marriages Sep 1926
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Gooch Robert C Murry Manchester S 8d 526
Murry Margaret Gooch Manchester S 8d 526
The date is very late, so if it is the right couple, maybe one of
them was not free to marry until that time.
Also, Margaret's name is recorded as Murry not Murray. In case this
is a transcription error, i checked the two originals via FindMyPast, but these
also say Murry.
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The 1891 census has your chap down as Charles Gooch, a brewers labourer, born in Suffolk.
His wife is down as Maggie Gooch, born Dublin.
As veeblevort says, there is no marriage on FreeBMD.
I have searched under Charles Gooch as well as Robert Gooch; maybe they were married in Ireland?
The 1911 census (if you have a subscription) tells you how long they have been married.
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The Irish civil registration Index is online and searching for 'Charles Gooch' brings up no records so doesn't look like a marriage took place in Ireland.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
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from the original post, ComposeMail seems to have the record already.
The couple claimed 22 years.
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That would put their marriage about 1888.
(The 1911 census wanted whole years married)
But I can't find a suitable marriage anywhere!!
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I think this might be the correct marriage as when you search for deaths for Robert and Margaret, there are two in Lancashire that match the approx birth years of the couple concerned.
We all know that many of our ancestors liked to tell porkies. :D :D
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I am so delighted with all your responses. I have most information on this family, but was searching for ages for their marriage details. Thank you all so much! Never used this service before. Can't believe how good the responses are, and how fast!
It looks like veeblevort could be right with the 1926 marriage. I will send for the Cert. Keep your fingers crossed.
suffolk*sue: I'm interested in what you say about 2 deaths recorded in Lancashire. Can you tell me the dates etc?
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Robert C Gooch
1941
Age at death (estimated): 75
Registration district: Crosby
Lancashire
Vol: 8b
Page: 693
Margaret Gooch
1944
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Crosby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Vol: 8b
Page: 516
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Grateful thanks suffolk* sue
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Hi Suffolk* Sue,
The 1926 Marriage Cert arrived today. It is the right one! There is no clue on the Cert as to why the marriage was so late. Robert Charles Gooch, age 58, is described as a Bachelor, and Margaret Murry, age 57, as a Spinster. Robert is described as a Restaurant Proprietor (presumably he took this up when he retired out of the police force).
The current practise is to describe a person with a previous marriage as "divorced'. Was that the practise also back in 1926?
Or maybe it was a problem of religion. Margaret was definitely a Catholic, and the family memory says Robert was non-Catholic.
What do you think?
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Divorce wasn't always easy then, and to some extent frowned on.
Margaret was probably brought up by parents and church to believe
divorce was a sin, and perhaps chose the lesser 'sin' while waiting
for a husband to die.
Also, possibly, marrying a divorcee might not have improved Robert's
career chances with the police.
There may have been religious issues about a non-Catholic marrying
a Catholic, which were not resolved until later in their lives.
We can only guess I suppose. Thankfully we now live in slightly more
enlightened times.
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Interesting thoughts veeblevort - thank you for that.
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Gladys Murthwaite (nee Gooch) is my Grandmother - James Murthwaite was her husband - left her when my mum was small - Gladys never remarried - my mum remembers walking past pawn shop in Warbreck Moor and seeing all their furniture in the window! - Gladys had 3 children Sid, Enid and Doris - Doris being my mother. Gran remembers the zeppelins bombing England and the pilots of the shot down airships only being young lads.
My Gran lived in Aintree and worked at Horse Race meetings all over the country as a result my mum stayed with her aunt in Crosby - can't remember her name but she was married to Mario. Remember Grans brother Sid and Aunty Ethel who lived in Bootle - lost her husband in the war and never remarried - One of Grans Brothers Sid is the father of the famous English Cricketer Graham Gooch.
Sid has 3 children, Enid also has 3 and Doris 4 - if you want any other information am happy to email
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Lovely surprise to get your information. Thank you so much. My apologies for delay in getting back to you. The storms over here Tuesday night brought down the telephone cables, and I rely on the phone for my broadband. However glad to say we got the phone back this afternoon.
And now I have a lot of questions for you!
Your mum's aunt must have been Violet Priscilla Gooch, born 1897. She married Mario I. Cerutti in 1917.
You mention 'one of Grans brothers Sid'. I assume this was Walter Sidney Gooch who was born in 1904? When was his son (the cricketer Graham) born?
Your Aunty Ethel - I assume you mean Grand Aunt, i.e. your Gran's sister. Ethel Maud was married to William Christopher Oldfield. They came to visit us in Dublin when I was a small child. Do you have any information on when William died in the war? Do you know what regiment he was in? Did they have any children?
I had another Subject on this forum "The Child Who Died In The Fire", but so far have received no real information. My mother told me that one of the Gooch children died in a fire (I am almost sure it was one of the Gooch children). The story was that her parents left her at home in her cot whilst they went to the cinema. I think it was a female child. I assumed the child would have been one your Gran's siblings. Do you have any information?
Your Gran's mum was Margaret Murray, born in Dublin. One of her sisters was Mary Murray, and she was my maternal great grandmother.
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Hi there,
My great grandfather was Victor (Pop) Gooch brother to Sid, Gladys, Ethel etc
My Nan, Joyce, is his daughter and turns 90 in April
I’d love any information you have as I’d love to trace her ancestry as a 90th birthday gift
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ComposeMail (the original poster) hasn't been online since December 2014.
If his old email is still active, he may get a notification of your reply.
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Hi Niki Fearns,
Starting with Victor, i.e. James Victor Gooch, born Abbots Langley, Herts in 1899, died 1977 in Liverpool. Married in 1928 to Florence M. Black, in Liverpool.
His brothers & sisters were:
Charles William, born 1890 at St Peter Hungate, Norwich
Margaret Florence, born 1892 in the Reg. district of Hemel Hempstead, Herts; Married Herbert Knight in 1916 in Reg district of Southwark, London
Ethel Maud, born 1894 in Chorleywood, Herts. Married William Christopher Oldfield, a wood machinist, in 1927 in Liverpool. Ethel became a tailoress, and she died in 1964, age 77, a widow, in Manchester.
Edwin Murray Gooch, born 1896 in Reg district of Watford, Herts. Married Florence White in 1918 in Reg district of Bishops Stortford.
Violet Princilla, born 1897 in Reg district of Watford. Married Mario I. Cerutti in 1917.
Gladys May, born 1901 in Reg district of Watford. Married James Murtwaite in 1924 in Liverpool.
Elaine Rachel (Aline, Eileen), born 1902 in Reg district of Watford. Married James William Gorst in 1937 in Reg district of Liverpool North. Elaine died in 1970 in Crosby.
Walter Sidney, born 1904 in Reg district of Watford. Married Maude Richardson in 1931 in Liverpool. Died 1975 in Liverpool.
Vera Teresa, born 1906 in the Reg district of Hereford, Herts. Married Bernard O'Hara in 1928 in Liverpool. It appears they had no children. Vera died in 1975 in Liverpool.
Lilian Dorothy, born 1910 in Little Hadham. Died 1910, aged 3 months and 3 weeks.
The 1911 Census shows Charles William and Ethel Maud living in Liverpool with their aunt and uncle Teresa Mason (nee Murray) and James Mason.
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The Gooch family's parents were Robert Charles Gooch, and Margaret Murray.
Robert Charles Gooch was born 1866 in sub-district of Lowestoft, Suffolk. His home was at Blundeston, Suffolk. His father was Charles Gooch, a fisherman, and his mother was Charlotte Youngs. Robert Charles Gooch married Margaret Murray in 1926 at the Registry Office in Manchester South. Robert died in 1941, age 75, in Great Crosby, Lancs. Robert's occupation was shown as Police Constable in both the 1901 and 1911 census, living at Abbots Langley, and Little Hadden. His occupation when he married in 1926 was shown as Restaurant Proprietor.
Margaret Murray was born at 25 Clarence Street in Dublin in 1867. She died in 1944, age 77, in Great Crosby, Lancs. Her parents were Edward Murray and Alice Hayden. Edward Murray's occupation was 'car owner', i.e. he had a taxi-type business in Dublin. Edward Murray and Alice Hayden, and 3 of their children who died young, are buried in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin. Edward had this grave with a very fancy headstone erected in memory of his mother Mary who died in 1855. My grandmother always looked after this grave and, after she died, my sisters and I took on the responsibility - so we visit the grave twice a year and keep it in good condition. Edward Murray and Alice Hayden were my great-great grandparents.
Hope this is of help.
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Thank you so much for the information. My Nan will be over the moon. Do you have any information regarding the children of all my great grandfathers (Victor) brothers and sisters who would be my Nans cousins
Thanks in advance
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Margaret Florence Gooch married Herbert Knight. There are 4 entries in the Birth Index for surname Knight and mother’s name Gooch:
Enid, born 2nd Qtr of 1918 in the reg district of Eastbourne, Sussex.
Norah, “ 1st Qtr of 1925 in the reg. district of Bishops Stortford, Herts.
Dennis C, born 2nd Qtr of 1926 in the reg. district of Birmingham South.
All these children seem to have survived.
Robert J, born 4th Qtr of 1943 in the reg. district of Petersfield, Hampshire
(this one seems unlikely as the mother would have been aged
51 when the child was born).
Ethel Maud Gooch married William Christopher Oldfield. I could not find any children born to Ethel and William. I understand that William died in the war (this information from TeePee1976). Ethel died in the 4th qtr of 1964 at Withington Hospital in Manchester. She was a widow at this time and lived in King Street, Manchester. Her Will was published in the 4th qtr of 1964, and this showed she left £321 to Vera Davies. I suspect this may have been her sister who may have re-married.
Edwin Murray Gooch
The 1911 Census entry seems to read Edward Henry Gooch. Edwin married Florence White. The records show that Edwin and Florence had 2 children:
Gerald P. Gooch, born 2nd Qtr of 1927, registered in Bishops Stortford, Herts.
Eric A. Gooch, born 2nd Qtr of 1929, again reg. in Bishops Stortford, Herts.
These children seem to have survived.
Violet Priscilla Gooch married Mario I. Cerutti. Violet and Mario had 3 children:
Doris Louise, born 3rd Qtr of 1920 in the reg. district of West Derby, Lancs.
This child died on 16 May 1921, age 8 months, at her home in Toxteth Park.
Her Death Cert showed she was the daughter of Mario Cerutti, a motor wagon driver.
Her mother Violet was the Informant and was present at the death. Doris Louise died
from Bronchitis Convulsions.
Joan E, born 4th Qtr of 1921 in the reg. district of Toxteth Park, Lancashire.
Marian, born 1st Qtr of 1924 in the reg. district of Liverpool, Lancashire.
James Victor Gooch married Florence M. Black. The Birth Index shows the following 2 children:
Evelyn J. Gooch, born 2nd Qtr of 1930 in the reg. district of Liverpool, Lancs.
Eric V. Gooch, born 2nd Qtr of 1934 in the reg. district of West Derby, Lancs.
These children seem to have survived.
Gladys May Gooch married James Murthwaite. The Birth Index shows the following children:
Enid M, in the 3rd Qtr of 1926 in the reg. district of West Derby, Lancs.
Sydney J, born 2nd Qtr 1931 in the reg. district of West Derby, Lancs.
Doris, born 3rd Qtr of 1940 in the reg. district of Liverpool Nth, Lancs.
These children seem to have survived.
Note that Enid M went on to have 3 children. Sydney J has 3 children, and Doris has 4 children.
Elaine Rachel Gooch
Aline (Eileen) married James William Gorst. Her name on the Marriage Index was down as Eileen R. Gooch. They appear to have had 2 children:
Colin E, born 4th Qtr of 1936 in the reg. district of Crosby, Lancashire.
Margaret Caroline, born 4th Qtr of 1937 in the reg.district of Crosby, Lancs.
This child died, aged 20 months, in the 3rd qtr of 1939 at
the General Hospital Waterloo in the reg. district of Crosby,
Lancs. Her home was at Manor Avenue, Great Crosby.
Her Death Cert shows that her father James William Gorst was
the Informant (and in attendance), and his occupation was
shown as Ship’s Quartermaster, Merchant Service. Cause of
death was cardiac failure, and tuberculous meningitis. At the time that
Aline Rachel was the Informant at the death of her father in the 2nd qtr
of 1944, she was residing at Cavendish Road, Great Crosby.
Walter Sidney Gooch
I checked the Marriage Index and the only entry in the Liverpool area was in 1931 to Maude Richardson. It appears from the Birth Index that they had 2 children:
Charles E. Gooch, born 4th Qtr of 1932 in Liverpool.
Alan Gooch, born 3rd Qtr of 1947 in Liverpool North.
Both these children seem to have survived.
Vera Teresa Gooch married Bernard O’Hara. I checked the Birth Index, but Vera and Bernard don’t seem to have had any children. Vera appears to have moved to live at Manor Avenue, Great Crosby, with her mother, and was the Informant at her mother’s death there on 29 May 1944.
Additional information:
The U.K 1939 Register shows the following members of the Gooch family living at 14 Monastery Road, Liverpool:
Margaret Gooch (nee Murray), her husband Robert Gooch, her son Walter Sydney Gooch, her daughter Veronica O’Hara (Vera Teresa), and her son-in-law Bernard O’Hara.
Please note that I gave you the wrong birth year 1867 for Margaret Gooch (nee Murray). This should have read the 4th qtr of 1866.
Question:
Can I assume that your Nan is Evelyn J. Gooch (daughter of James Victor Gooch) ?
Does the J stand for Joyce?
Hope your Nan is going to have a great 90th birthday !!!
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Once again thank you so much
Yes my Nan is Evelyn known as Joyce
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I would love to know if your Nan (Joyce) remembers her grandmother Margaret Gooch (nee Murray), and if she can remember what type of woman she was, her likes and dislikes, and if she ever talked about growing up in Dublin, and if she ever talked about her parents Edward Murray and Alice Hayden.
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I know she remembers her grandmother as she talked about going to manor avenue every Sunday for tea and pop (victor) always giving her his Yorkshire pudding.
I shall ask her if she remembers her talking about Ireland and let you know
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Ah that's great. I'd really like to know, so await your news anon. Thank you!
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Just to bring up to date: Doris Murthwaite married Removed and had 4 children Removed. Enid Muthwaite married Removed and had 3 children Removed. Sid Murthwaite married Removed and had 4 children Removed
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Ok so that makes you my nans second cousin I think?? My fourth?
Doris and Enid would’ve been my nans cousins?
Wow distant family that aren’t so distant!
Thank you
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Regarding Edward Murray and Alice Hayden.
Was coming up with a blank then found a Edvardus Murray and Alicia Hayden and the dates fitted. They later changed their name to Edward and Alice - i think.
Had several children including Margarita (changed to Margaret) who went on to mary Robert Charles Gooch and Alices mother and father were Alicia and John Hayden
Just going to firm this up later on Ancestry
Regards
TeePee
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teepee are any of these folk named still living ?
Sarah
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Edvardus and Alicia They later changed their name to Edward and Alice - i think.
Margarita (changed to Margaret)
If this family was Catholic, there was no change of names. The RC registers 'latinised' names, Edvardus = Edward, Alicia = Alice, Margarita=Margaret.
The civil registration of their births would have used their names correctly as you would recognise them.
Boo
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manged to attach it
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Nice photograph ;D but who is it of?
KG
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teepee are any of these folk named still living ?
Sarah
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Gooch ..... mostly from Norfolk and Suffolk. Mine originated around Norwich which is close to the border with Suffolk. Alfred Gooch of Shotesham (b 1864) is my Great Grandfather. My paternal grandmother Elsie Gooch (b 1903) was born in Swaffham, Norfolk. All my Nelsons are of North Norfolk, around Fakenham.
must be a distant cousin, cheers, Ian
http://shotesham.com/benjamin-gooch-founder-of-the-nn/
World famous Gooch, other than Graham the cricketer